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Topic ClosedDoes religion have a place in Prog music?
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tboyd1802 View Drop Down
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Points: 898 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 18:26
Does/should artists with a religious leaning be able to produce progressive music that expresses this leaning, absolutely. Do I want to listen to it, no. But this involves my choice of what I want to listen to, rather than me imposing my prejudice as to what should and shouldn't be produced on to the artist.
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 18:23
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Yes, that went haywire. Isn't an argument without mentioning reasons or examples the most common form of being 'preachy' ?I believe that's what  people resent the most.
I tend to think that's the main thing that makes something "preachy" especially because people do it all the time. Protest signs. Bumper stickers. Willy Wonka memes. In arguments, simply, "That's ridiculous/absurd," or "That's hypocritical." It's a little more effective in an argument, because when a person is willing to rethink their position, those answers may or may not trigger a reconsideration (as opposed to "Turn or Burn" signs which I doubt have ever caused anyone who did not believe in "Burn" to "turn"), but they do not actually point out a flaw in someone's logic and are still assertions. When people listen to lyrics they give far less grace (than in an argument) to other points of view unless the writer can make the person empathize with what they are saying. Reasons or examples can make a person say, "Yeah I can see why you might hold that view." 
Good point as to lyrics being a narrow form of communication, a singer can only say so much. Perhaps that's why so many may seem to be 'preachy'. Again, a great point.


Edited by SteveG - August 05 2014 at 18:23
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Points: 8543 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 18:22
Preachy to me = lyrics that sound like a sermon (you know, preachers preach on Sundays to crowds of people).  If I feel the lyrics could be something that preacher says on Sunday, they are preachy. 

By the way, I understand your point now on Christian music, but Christian rock, Christian metal are things.  And they are usually called that by its practitioners as well as the media.  I'm sure if you asked Neal if he did Christian prog, he would give an unqualified "yes".


Edited by The Doctor - August 05 2014 at 18:24
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 18:17
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

The question is a little odd imho ,  and  I assume Steve means how do we feel about Christian or religious centered lyrics or themes since the music as several pointed out is just music.
I have no problem with it if they are decent lyrics and the music is along the lines of the kind of prog I lke in general.
 
As to  Morse, I haven't really liked the musical direction he has taken on his later solo things regardless of the lyrics.
 
Does 'atheism' have a place in prog music...?
Wink
 
Spot on, as usual Dr. Wu. I was trying to be politically correct, but I think everyone gets the point.
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 18:15
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

But just a moment, Epi. Aren't there "Christian artists" who, reviling supposedly secular values, eschew the general listener and market strictly to the Christian milieu, whether that be Christian metal, rap, country or whatever?

I love Phil Keaggy as much as the next atheist guitarist (referring to myself, of course), but let's not pretend separate genres do not exist like Santa Claus or the Easter bunny.


I don't think that has much to do with the artists as it does with the music industry.  Go to a record store- do you find sections for "Muslim music" or "Hindu music?"  Of course not.  It's not about the music, and it's not about God.  At the end of the day, it's about money.  Many of the artists provide an "image" that happens to be marketable with a segment of the population, just as many other performers do.

A friend of my wife is a sound man who has toured with Carman and Jaci Velasquez and Snoop Dog (among many others).  Rarely do we see each other, but when we do, he of course has interesting stories to tell from the road.  I actually helped him set up for a Carman concert nearby.  His report regarding Snoop Dog was the most favorable of the three, and he himself is a Christian.


Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

In fact, the selfsame Kerry Livgren ditched Kansas to play to Christian crowds, with Christian words and Christian themes. Keaggy also had instrumental albums categorized "Christian". Is that how they are marketed, or are you saying their albums are tossed, surreptitiously, into the Jesus bin?


According to Livgren's biography, that's not true.  Livgren's lyrics had always been largely religious, and had gone from one religion to the next.  So many of Kansas' lyrics are very religious ("Hymn to the Atman," "Apercu" to name two).

When Steve Walsh left, Kansas brought in John Elefante, who was a Christian himself by age 20.

Livgren left Kansas not because he wanted to play to "Christian crowds," but because Kansas no longer liked his evangelical lyrics.  He had always been the primary songwriter for this band; I am sure wanted to remain the primary songwriter, but not at the expense of his integrity.  Look at the lyrics to Kansas' last studio album Somewhere to Elsewhere or any of the three Proto-Kaw albums for evidence of this.
No doubt that Christain music makes money but I doubt if Morse really does. Too small a niche. Again, Christian Prog? Small crowd,  I would think.
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Points: 20623 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 18:13
The question is a little odd imho ,  and  I assume Steve means how do we feel about Christian or religious centered lyrics or themes since the music as several pointed out is just music.
I have no problem with it if they are decent lyrics and the music is along the lines of the kind of prog I lke in general.
 
As to  Morse, I haven't really liked the musical direction he has taken on his later solo things regardless of the lyrics.
 
Does 'atheism' have a place in prog music...?
Wink
 
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Points: 8856 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 18:12
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Yes, that went haywire. Isn't an argument without mentioning reasons or examples the most common form of being 'preachy' ?I believe that's what  people resent the most.
I tend to think that's the main thing that makes something "preachy" especially because people do it all the time. Protest signs. Bumper stickers. Willy Wonka memes. In arguments, simply, "That's ridiculous/absurd," or "That's hypocritical." It's a little more effective in an argument, because when a person is willing to rethink their position, those answers may or may not trigger a reconsideration (as opposed to "Turn or Burn" signs which I doubt have ever caused anyone who did not believe in "Burn" to "turn"), but they do not actually point out a flaw in someone's logic and are still assertions. When people listen to lyrics they give far less grace (than in an argument) to other points of view unless the writer can make the person empathize with what they are saying. Reasons or examples can make a person say, "Yeah I can see why you might hold that view." 

Edited by Polymorphia - August 05 2014 at 18:15
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 18:10
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

But just a moment, Epi. Aren't there "Christian artists" who, reviling supposedly secular values, eschew the general listener and market strictly to the Christian milieu, whether that be Christian metal, rap, country or whatever?

I love Phil Keaggy as much as the next atheist guitarist (referring to myself, of course), but let's not pretend separate genres do not exist like Santa Claus or the Easter bunny.


I don't think that has much to do with the artists as it does with the music industry.  Go to a record store- do you find sections for "Muslim music" or "Hindu music?"  Of course not.  It's not about the music, and it's not about God.  At the end of the day, it's about money.  Many of the artists provide an "image" that happens to be marketable with a segment of the population, just as many other performers do.

A friend of my wife is a sound man who has toured with Carman and Jaci Velasquez and Snoop Dog (among many others).  Rarely do we see each other, but when we do, he of course has interesting stories to tell from the road.  I actually helped him set up for a Carman concert nearby.  His report regarding Snoop Dog was the most favorable of the three, and he himself is a Christian.


Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

In fact, the selfsame Kerry Livgren ditched Kansas to play to Christian crowds, with Christian words and Christian themes. Keaggy also had instrumental albums categorized "Christian". Is that how they are marketed, or are you saying their albums are tossed, surreptitiously, into the Jesus bin?


According to Livgren's biography, that's not true.  Livgren's lyrics had always been largely religious, and had gone from one religion to the next.  So many of Kansas' lyrics are very religious ("Hymn to the Atman," "Apercu" to name two).

When Steve Walsh left, Kansas brought in John Elefante, who was a Christian himself by age 20.

Livgren left Kansas not because he wanted to play to "Christian crowds," but because Kansas no longer liked his evangelical lyrics.  He had always been the primary songwriter for this band; I am sure wanted to remain the primary songwriter, but not at the expense of his integrity.  Look at the lyrics to Kansas' last studio album Somewhere to Elsewhere or any of the three Proto-Kaw albums for evidence of this.

Edited by Epignosis - August 05 2014 at 18:13
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 18:09
^Sorry Smart, I don't follow you. Could you expand a bit?

Edited by SteveG - August 05 2014 at 18:09
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Points: 14169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 18:07
Sure, if the writers of the music want
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 18:00
^Yes, that went haywire. Isn't an argument without mentioning reasons or examples the most common form of being 'preachy' ?I believe that's what  people resent the most.


Edited by SteveG - August 05 2014 at 18:04
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Points: 8856 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 17:57
I'm sorry, but I can't quite tell what you're getting at, especially with the quote tags gone wonky. 
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 17:55
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

[QUOTE=SteveG]^Being hit over the head with  a forceful argument is also being preachy.  I'm not saying that Morse is that forseful, but some people in music are.
  Ouote: 'To me, it's either description of subjective reactions (like the words "ridiculous" "absurd" "hypocritical") or assertion of an argument, either without mentioning reasons or examples.'
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Answer: Assertion of an argument, either without mentioning reasons or examples. Isn't that always it with people or is there something more?



Edited by SteveG - August 05 2014 at 17:58
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Points: 8856 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 17:51
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Being hit over the head with  a forceful argument is also being preachy.  I'm not saying that Morse is that forseful, but some people in music are.
What makes forceful feel "preachy" though? To me, it's either description of subjective reactions (like the words "ridiculous" "absurd" "hypocritical") or assertion of an argument, either without mentioning reasons or examples. 

Destroyer's "The Sublimation Hour" is an example of a song that is actually lyrically pretty forceful, but in actuality but it's filled and filled with images, examples, all of which prevent it from being preachy. 

But, I suppose, with larger philosophical or theological ideas, it's harder to get away with that. 


Edited by Polymorphia - August 05 2014 at 17:53
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 17:42
^Maybe the question to ask is 'look where religion has brought us?'. Both the positive and the negative effects. There seems to be little of that in music, aside from criticism or acclaim.


Edited by SteveG - August 05 2014 at 17:43
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Points: 60 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 17:37
Where does religion get us? Just listen to the songs The Lie and Mediavil from Peter Hammill and you will have the answer...
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 17:37
^Being hit over the head with  a forceful argument is also being preachy.  I'm not saying that Morse is that forseful, but some people in music are.
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Points: 8856 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 17:32
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

^ is it?

I don't quite follow you?


Music is mathematical intervals.  There's nothing inherently religious about that.

If you're talking about lyrics, then people may articulate whatever they please, whether it's liked or not.  Religion is merely one subject of many.

I find it odd that Neal Morse gets so much flak for his lyrics.  As with most lyricists, he's had moments of brilliance, moments of mediocrity, and moments of awfulness.  That doesn't make him "preachy" (silly adjective).  If you want to call him "preachy," comment on his banter on the live albums.

I've never seen one person lose his mind over Jon Anderson's "If we were flowers, we would worship the sun.  So why not now?"  That's rather...invitational, isn't it?


If you're responding to my use of the word "preachy," I'll clarify. The adjective "preachy" just points to an artists lack of ability to make listeners empathize with what they're saying, or, at least, that's how I use it. I don't really find Neal Morse's lyrics as preachy as others, but I still find them preachy, even agreeing with some of what he's saying. He just doesn't communicate it in a way that I empathize with, especially with the accompanying sci-fi elements of Transatlantic's aesthetic. Jon Anderson's appeal as a lyricist, for me, relies partly on the "mystic" aura of the lyrics and music. I find more fascination in his lyrics than truth, but I empathize with them more than Morse's, personally.
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Points: 13050 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 17:29
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:



Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

2 + 2 = praise Jesus!

But seriously, what would you call music whose lyrics are Christian-centered, like Neal Morse's?
Rock
music.  Or country music.  Or rap music.  Or metal.  Or polka.  All of
these genres have Christian lyricists.  "Christian" as an adjective for
music just isn't useful when describing the music.  I've seen Kerry Livgren's One of Several Possible Musiks labeled as "Christian."  Why?  It's instrumental.  ConfusedI've never heard Rush being called "Objectivist Rock."  I've never heard Pink Floyd being called "Anti-Capitalist Rock."

But just a moment, Epi. Aren't there "Christian artists" who, reviling supposedly secular values, eschew the general listener and market strictly to the Christian milieu, whether that be Christian metal, rap, country or whatever?

I love Phil Keaggy as much as the next atheist guitarist (referring to myself, of course), but let's not pretend separate genres do not exist like Santa Claus or the Easter bunny.

In fact, the selfsame Kerry Livgren ditched Kansas to play to Christian crowds, with Christian words and Christian themes. Keaggy also had instrumental albums categorized "Christian". Is that how they are marketed, or are you saying their albums are tossed, surreptitiously, into the Jesus bin?

Edited by The Dark Elf - August 05 2014 at 17:37
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 17:28
It didn't take much to stir up this hornets nest, did it? I personally have no gripes with religiously themed lyrics (I don't belong to any religion) but if the composer has something of interest, a particular storyline involving religion, I actually don't mind. But Morse's preachy style does bother me. Conversely, a preachy album released some time ago by Midge Ure called Breathe did appeal to me as it mirrored his own faith vs.doubt struggle. I suppose that it's what appeals to you in the storyline that ultimately determines if you are ok  with religion in music, or not.

Edited by SteveG - August 05 2014 at 17:39
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