Destroyer's "The Sublimation Hour" is an example of a song that is actually lyrically pretty forceful, but in actuality but it's filled and filled with images, examples, all of which prevent it from being preachy. 

But, I suppose, with larger philosophical or theological ideas, it's harder to get away with that. 

SteveG wrote: ^Yes, that went haywire. Isn't an argument without mentioning reasons or examples the most common form of being 'preachy' ?I believe that's what  people resent the most.

I tend to think that's the main thing that makes something "preachy" especially because people do it all the time. Protest signs. Bumper stickers. Willy Wonka memes. In arguments, simply, "That's ridiculous/absurd," or "That's hypocritical." It's a little more effective in an argument, because when a person is willing to rethink their position, those answers may or may not trigger a reconsideration (as opposed to "Turn or Burn" signs which I doubt have ever caused anyone who did not believe in "Burn" to "turn"), but they do not actually point out a flaw in someone's logic and are still assertions. When people listen to lyrics they give far less grace (than in an argument) to other points of view unless the writer can make the person empathize with what they are saying. Reasons or examples can make a person say, "Yeah I can see why you might hold that view." 

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https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music

I have no problem with it if they are decent lyrics and the music is along the lines of the kind of prog I lke in general.

 

As to  Morse, I haven't really liked the musical direction he has taken on his later solo things regardless of the lyrics.

 

Does 'atheism' have a place in prog music...?

 

As for the thread question, sure, however you want to express yourself through music or lyrics, have at it.  I won't judge you.  I may not buy your albums, but I won't judge you.

I think of "religion" in a broad sense, btw, whatever you believe and feel strongly about beyond the empirical world, if anything.  I don't single out so-called Christian artists just because they're the most visible in our culture.  Religion isn't all about preaching at people - for some it's a private and intimate matter.  And that kind of thing is certainly more than appropriate for a song.

Wellll. Christian music exists and a whole lot of people are going to take a whole lot of convincing before they believe otherwise. Denying its existence is like saying that there's no such thing as christian books or christian art. Christian music has existed for hundreds of years - whether that is a hymn or a plainsong or a gregorian chant or a mass or a carol or gospel music or christian rock (or rap or metal or hip hop or folk or polka). It is not a genre I will grant you that, but that does not mean it cannot exist, it does not have to be a style of music to exist. Just as children's music is a category and not a style or genre, and love songs are songs that are genre non-specific songs and have "love" as their theme, christian music is a category of music that has a christian theme. That theme can be praise, worship, prayer or testimony; it can preach and/or proselytise; it can be moralistic; it can be a narrative; it can contain a message and it can sermonise but in all those things it is centred around christianity. 

The term christian rock was not invented by secular musicologists so we atheists can avoid it, (thou' at times it is nice to be forewarned), it was a term coined by christians and christian musicians back in the mid-1960s (also known as Jesus music and later as contemporary christian music) ~ 'christian' may not be a useful adjective for describing the music, 'christian music' a damn useful noun-phrase for those who are looking for it ~ which is I guess why fans of christian music even have their own version of the PA ( http://www.christianmusicarchive.com/" rel="nofollow - www.christianmusicarchive.com ).

...and Preachy? It's not a silly adjective it's a (mainly) derogatory one, but I've never heard any of Morse's lyrics since Snow to say whether that is correctly used in relation to his solo material. Religious lyrics can 'have a tendency to give moral advice in a tedious or self-righteous way', (ie 'preachy'), then so can non-religious lyrics. Like every episode of The Cosby Show had to contain a life lesson, to a non-christian overtly christian lyrics do sound preachy or proselytising, sorry but that's just how it is I'm afraid.

Not knowing who Kerry Livgren is I assume he is (well?) known as a christian artist and has release other albums with lyrics that have a christian theme. If a christian artist releases an instrumental album it would not surprise me to see it filed under christian music with all his other albums, indeed it would musicology inaccurate but as a cataloguing it would be logical.

Dean wrote: Not knowing who Kerry Livgren is I assume he is (well?) known as a christian artist and has release other albums with lyrics that have a christian theme. If a christian artist releases an instrumental album it would not surprise me to see it filed under christian music with all his other albums, indeed it would musicology inaccurate but as a cataloguing it would be logical.

He's not well-known at all, really.

An instrumental album going into the "Christian Music" section only shows that such labels are to market albums, not to describe the music.

Considering I got into prog because a D&D (well more accurately GURPS) group I was in had ELP, Tull and VDGG albums on when we played, I'm going with yes...

Ambient Hurricanes wrote: Given that religion is a widely pervasive and important aspect of the human experience, and that it has played an enormous role in history and continues to do so in our culture, I would find it hard to argue that religion has not place in progressive rock (or any other type of music, for that matter). Whatever you think of religion, and despite the unfortunate trends in some religious sects to restrict musical expression, it cannot be denied that the Christian church through the ages has produced and patronized some of the greatest music ever composed. What I don't like is the contemporary "Christian" music scene, which is largely mediocre and feeds off the prejudices and fears of those who regard all forms of "secular" music with suspicion. I don't have much of a problem with Morse's lyrical content (that which I've heard, anyway); I simply think that he is a bad lyricist stylistically.  Granted, Sola Scriptura is the only one of his albums that I'm very familiar with (decided it wasn't my cup of tea and never listened to  much more of his output) but the lyrics on that album are simply atrocious.

This...

... and this. (This implies that Christian Math Rock does not exist either ).

The lyrics are not about 'holding 'religion accountable' but actually were dismissing religion as pointless and that you can only rely on yourself and not some 'thing' to make it all right.

In general there is no subject that cannot be put in prog lyrics. Its well known that rape and domestic abuse have featured in prog tracks. Anything that is out there and happens can be commented on. Neal Morse writes almost exclusively about religion because its the easiest thing for him to do and he is has a passion for it. Its the energy and quality of the music I like although I note that ? is the album that is most popular because he is not quite as overtly preachy and religious on that album as he is on some others. I suspect what concerns many is the lack of subtlety rather than the subject matter itself with some of Neal's music.

Religion is just one of the many possible sources. I'd like to write a song about quantum gravity....

As long as religion is the theme but the message is not against my ethics I'm fine with it. Preaching in the old threatening style (you better believe and practice or you will burn in hell) I find it unethical.

BTW, Neil Morse's "preachiness" is much more straightforward in his live concerts in his inter-songs talking than in his songs lyrics. I once took my ex-girlfriend to one of his concerts and she (who was strongly anti-catholic) couldn't help bursting out laughing. 

Just as religion/spirituality is a part of life in every culture (without exception), and thus mankind, it certainly should be included in music, but not in a Clericalistic way.

What I mean is I don't agree with music that's made for the secular sphere always having to center on sacred themes. For example, as a Catholic I think that the proper perspective for a Christian lay person would be that God's beauty can be found in the secular sphere as easily as the overtly sacred sphere (in churches and such) without necessarily even mentioning God himself.

That being said, I'd much rather listen to Jethro Tull and Yes sing about the beauty that can be found in secular life which comes from God than Neil Morse sing constantly explicitly sing about his Christian spirituality, especially since he is neither always in church or any kind of Cleric/Priest (except perhaps to some prog fans!!  ).

Religion is the main cause of wars in this world. It's good to mention it in the songs once in a while.

Perhaps that is the case in America.  But in India, there is certainly a separate category referred to as devotional music, which is basically songs in praise of God(s) and it's identified as such in record stores.  They may not specify HINDU devotional music but there's no need to as all the titles stocked by the stores in that category pertain to Hindu religious music.  And as far as I know, Christmas music is a distinct category over there and it's a bit difficult to argue that that has nothing to do AT ALL with Christianity because it is a Christian festival.  We do have Christmas holidays here because it's a sort of festive season and we treat ourselves to pastries and all that but we don't say any prayers because, all said and done, it's not OUR festival.

This.  At least so long as the music is not a vehicle to further a hateful and violent agenda.

I know I will regret this, but sometimes I really cannot help myself.

So........

Do you know how bloody ridiculous this sounds?

Actually, do you realise just how religious this sounds?

How can you have a damned "atheist fundamentalist". This implies to me that there exist such strange creatures as atheist heretics

Dean, my dear chap. You there? Are you a lesser atheist than our mutual friend Mr Trot? Is there just a little bit of belief creeping into your otherwise pure atheistic thoughts?