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Michael678
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 02 2013
Location: United States
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Points: 2466
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Posted: September 12 2015 at 13:45 |
SteveG wrote:
No vote. There's nothing here that's overrated, over celebrated or over appreciated, IMHO. |
Agreed, mate!
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Progrockdude
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Rednight
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 18 2014
Location: Mar Vista, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 4807
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Posted: September 12 2015 at 13:13 |
Are you kidding me, fella? I find all of them stellar cornerstones of classic prog rock. Come up with something else.
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"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno
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emigre80
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 25 2015
Location: kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 2223
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Posted: September 12 2015 at 13:12 |
The Dark Elf wrote:
emigre80 wrote:
^oh, I sure do agree with that assessment. |
Unless, of course, one likes to see Woody play the same wise-cracking, sexually-frustrated Jewish nebbish in every film since the 60s. |
it got old many, many years ago, although I have trouble resisting Annie Hall if it happens to turn up.
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emigre80
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 25 2015
Location: kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 2223
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Posted: September 12 2015 at 13:11 |
Dean wrote:
emigre80 wrote:
a higher opinion than it deserves - yes, I think that does make it overrated. But of course it's a matter of individual tastes - obviously it's not an issue for others on this thread. |
But the arbiter of whether it deserves the [widely held] opinion is the person who claims it is "overrated", not all of those who initially gave it the opinion it currently has and I believe that is unfair and unjust. [previously I used the term "an arrogance" which is not the same as calling people "arrogant", but that was probably too strong for the sensibilities of some around here]
emigre80 wrote:
without discussions like these, however, I am not sure what's left for this site. "Here's a new album I listened to today and here is what I ate today and here is what TV show I watched today." If it's all just presenting facts without discussing how people feel about the album, the food and the TV show (and having differences of opinion about them), then there's not much reason to continue to participate. |
(as I have said repeatedly) There is nothing wrong with expressing an opinion, there is nothing wrong in criticising an album, this site (not just the forum) is a review site, subjective opinion is its raison d'être. I don't have an issue with people criticising an album, I have an issue with the connotation that: because an opinion does not agree with the consensus then the consensus is wrong.
emigre80 wrote:
I just don't have an issue with the concept of overrated. In fact, I think it's a valid criticism and a way to get people to actually look at their tastes and choices and perhaps think about why those tastes and choices exist. Defending a stance often helps a person define their opinions beyond "it's my favorite album or band."
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I do have an issue with the concept, and its vernacular usage, precisely because it is not a valid criticism, it is a challenged others to defend their opinion. |
I don't see anything wrong with challenging a consensus (in fact I believe in challenging all consensuses, if that is the correct plural of the word) and I also don't see any issue with challenging others to defend their opinion - particularly on this website, where often people have a "I said so therefore it must be true" attitude. I certainly do understand your point of view, however, which is why it might make sense to avoid any thread with "overrated" in the title, just as I avoid any thread with "tv show" in the title, because I know in advance I couldn't possibly care less. This seems to be a concept that sets you off, and life is far too short to court needless irritation.
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13065
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Posted: September 12 2015 at 13:07 |
emigre80 wrote:
^oh, I sure do agree with that assessment. |
Unless, of course, one likes to see Woody play the same wise-cracking, sexually-frustrated Jewish nebbish in every film since the 60s.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: September 12 2015 at 13:05 |
emigre80 wrote:
a higher opinion than it deserves - yes, I think that does make it overrated. But of course it's a matter of individual tastes - obviously it's not an issue for others on this thread. |
But the arbiter of whether it deserves the [widely held] opinion is the person who claims it is "overrated", not all of those who initially gave it the opinion it currently has and I believe that is unfair and unjust. [previously I used the term "an arrogance" which is not the same as calling people "arrogant", but that was probably too strong for the sensibilities of some around here]
emigre80 wrote:
without discussions like these, however, I am not sure what's left for this site. "Here's a new album I listened to today and here is what I ate today and here is what TV show I watched today." If it's all just presenting facts without discussing how people feel about the album, the food and the TV show (and having differences of opinion about them), then there's not much reason to continue to participate. |
(as I have said repeatedly) There is nothing wrong with expressing an opinion, there is nothing wrong in criticising an album, this site (not just the forum) is a review site, subjective opinion is its raison d'être. I don't have an issue with people criticising an album, I have an issue with the connotation that: because an opinion does not agree with the consensus then the consensus is wrong.
emigre80 wrote:
I just don't have an issue with the concept of overrated. In fact, I think it's a valid criticism and a way to get people to actually look at their tastes and choices and perhaps think about why those tastes and choices exist. Defending a stance often helps a person define their opinions beyond "it's my favorite album or band."
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I do have an issue with the concept, and its vernacular usage, precisely because it is not a valid criticism, it is a challenged others to defend their opinion.
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What?
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emigre80
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 25 2015
Location: kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 2223
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Posted: September 12 2015 at 13:04 |
^oh, I sure do agree with that assessment.
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13065
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Posted: September 12 2015 at 13:02 |
Woody Allen is overrated.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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emigre80
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 25 2015
Location: kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 2223
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Posted: September 12 2015 at 13:00 |
Does anyone but me remember the "Academy of the Overrated" from Woody Allen's Manhattan? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOyw6Q8qWpM
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Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 20 2010
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Online
Points: 11710
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Posted: September 12 2015 at 12:23 |
^Hear, hear!
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emigre80
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 25 2015
Location: kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 2223
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Posted: September 12 2015 at 12:13 |
Dean wrote:
emigre80 wrote:
Dean wrote:
emigre80 wrote:
For example, I don't think those who find DSOTM brilliant abhorrent in any way. I would merely hope they are articulate enough to explain to me why they think so, because I actually would like to know. |
And the converse is of course also true, but "overrated" (especially in its use here) is a weasel-word that absolves the accuser of any requirement to explain themselves or justify their claim. |
Interestingly, that's exactly the definition the urban dictionary gives for the word "overrated." I prefer "to have a higher opinion of something than is deserved." |
I see no distinction between the two definitions, the latter is just more wordy. What is being criticised is other peoples opinion, not the album itself.
emigre80 wrote:
Actually, this conversation has enabled me to pinpoint the exact reason I find DSOTM to be overrated. I find it lacking in honest emotion (besides Waters' standard self-pity, which never feels particularly honest or emotional to me, just an attention-seeking device). Whereas WYWH focuses on someone else, and even while making extensive use of the first-person singular pronoun, really does provide insight into emotional depths. |
And that is a valid criticism and your opinion, I have no problem with any of that. It just doesn't make DSotM "overrated" as a result. |
a higher opinion than it deserves - yes, I think that does make it overrated. But of course it's a matter of individual tastes - obviously it's not an issue for others on this thread. without discussions like these, however, I am not sure what's left for this site. "Here's a new album I listened to today and here is what I ate today and here is what TV show I watched today." If it's all just presenting facts without discussing how people feel about the album, the food and the TV show (and having differences of opinion about them), then there's not much reason to continue to participate. I just don't have an issue with the concept of overrated. In fact, I think it's a valid criticism and a way to get people to actually look at their tastes and choices and perhaps think about why those tastes and choices exist. Defending a stance often helps a person define their opinions beyond "it's my favorite album or band."
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: September 12 2015 at 12:05 |
emigre80 wrote:
Dean wrote:
emigre80 wrote:
For example, I don't think those who find DSOTM brilliant abhorrent in any way. I would merely hope they are articulate enough to explain to me why they think so, because I actually would like to know. |
And the converse is of course also true, but "overrated" (especially in its use here) is a weasel-word that absolves the accuser of any requirement to explain themselves or justify their claim. |
Interestingly, that's exactly the definition the urban dictionary gives for the word "overrated." I prefer "to have a higher opinion of something than is deserved." |
I see no distinction between the two definitions, the latter is just more wordy. What is being criticised is other peoples opinion, not the album itself.
emigre80 wrote:
Actually, this conversation has enabled me to pinpoint the exact reason I find DSOTM to be overrated. I find it lacking in honest emotion (besides Waters' standard self-pity, which never feels particularly honest or emotional to me, just an attention-seeking device). Whereas WYWH focuses on someone else, and even while making extensive use of the first-person singular pronoun, really does provide insight into emotional depths. |
And that is a valid criticism and your opinion, I have no problem with any of that. It just doesn't make DSotM "overrated" as a result.
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What?
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66288
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Posted: September 12 2015 at 11:58 |
Saperlipopette! wrote:
emigre80 wrote:
I do like the raccoon and the sprinkler. I don't think raccoons playing in sprinklers are at all overrated. | Agreed |
Me too. Kind of looks like it is playing a harp.
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emigre80
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 25 2015
Location: kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 2223
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Posted: September 12 2015 at 11:48 |
Dean wrote:
emigre80 wrote:
For example, I don't think those who find DSOTM brilliant abhorrent in any way. I would merely hope they are articulate enough to explain to me why they think so, because I actually would like to know. |
And the converse is of course also true, but "overrated" (especially in its use here) is a weasel-word that absolves the accuser of any requirement to explain themselves or justify their claim. |
Interestingly, that's exactly the definition the urban dictionary gives for the word "overrated." I prefer "to have a higher opinion of something than is deserved." Actually, this conversation has enabled me to pinpoint the exact reason I find DSOTM to be overrated. I find it lacking in honest emotion (besides Waters' standard self-pity, which never feels particularly honest or emotional to me, just an attention-seeking device). Whereas WYWH focuses on someone else, and even while making extensive use of the first-person singular pronoun, really does provide insight into emotional depths. So this thread has been useful for me, because that's a question that's been bothering me for a long time.
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Horizons
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 20 2011
Location: Somewhere Else
Status: Offline
Points: 16952
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Posted: September 12 2015 at 11:33 |
I don't like KC's debut so i voted that.
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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: September 12 2015 at 11:30 |
emigre80 wrote:
For example, I don't think those who find DSOTM brilliant abhorrent in any way. I would merely hope they are articulate enough to explain to me why they think so, because I actually would like to know. |
And the converse is of course also true, but "overrated" (especially in its use here) is a weasel-word that absolves the accuser of any requirement to explain themselves or justify their claim.
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What?
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13065
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Posted: September 12 2015 at 11:07 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I never vote for overrated polls
IMHO Overrated means = Look at those idiots who love what I decided is mediocre.
All these albums have reached their place in the Prog Pantheon, because they deserve it.
I like Foxtrot more, but this doesn't mean I consider the others overrated |
I don't see how albums that are highly rated over generations of listeners can be considered overrated. The albums in question have received continuous accolades for over 40 years. I would say, rather, that albums like Steven Wilson's The Raven Who Refused To Sing, which folks have massive erections over currently, most likely will not stand the test of time, and in comparison to the albums listed are more likely to fade from public interest in a relatively short time (relative, in prog music, meaning years as opposed to decades). Good albums, but not on par with acknowledged classics.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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emigre80
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 25 2015
Location: kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 2223
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Posted: September 12 2015 at 10:37 |
Okay. I still like the raccoon.
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Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 20 2010
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Online
Points: 11710
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Posted: September 12 2015 at 10:36 |
^Eh but did you not get the context? It was a parody of sorts of those who contribute with nothing but telling us that they have a problem with others thinking of an album as overrated. It had nothing whatsoever to do with your example.
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emigre80
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 25 2015
Location: kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 2223
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Posted: September 12 2015 at 10:28 |
I believe you introduced the word "disgust" into the conversation.
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