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Hawkwise View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 12:52
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Whoever mentioned Bose in a hifi thread... Fail
  LOL but true
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 12:45
^ ... ohhh come on now yes it does........LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 12:29
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:


What Dean describes to me in several posts makes sense to seriously look at non valve amps......a glowing glass bottle is pretty but will I really hear the difference between a US$3,000 amp by Jolida and a US$1,000 amp by NAD?
 
My search continues....Thanks gentleman!

Chances are that if you really spend the $3,000 on the Jolida amp, it might end up sounding just about 3 times better than the $1,000 amp ... subjectively. 

It doesn't have to be that way though - I'm listening to music on my 80 EUR Logitech X-530 all the time, and I'm never thinking "OMG this sounds 12 times worse than a 1,000 EUR amp and speakers". Because it doesn't. Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 12:26
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

To give you an image, it's like saying PF is two times better than
Britney Spears...
That is meaningless, erroneous and in every respect misleading. If you prefer PF to Britney then you can say you say you like them better, but you cannot say they are better by any countable units of betterness. You cannot say that valve amplifier is twice as good as a transistor amplifier, that is nonsense. However, you can say you prefer valve amplifiers or you like them better - that is personal preference and nothing that you can empirically quantify to justify to another audiophile, hi-fi freak or anyone who is just mildly interested in audio equipment. It's like when you use "musical" as an adjective - what do you actually mean by that? If a set of interconnects or an amp is more "musical" in the mids and highs what does that mean exactly, in terms that everyone here can understand? Does that mean that if I play something discordant and dissonant like Faust or Stockhausen it will now sound more lyrical and melodic like Barclay James Harvest? No- of course it doesn't. So what does it mean? Geek
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 12:26
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

To give you an image, it's like saying PF is two times better than
Britney Spears...

Which is just about as silly and really drives Dean's point home.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 11:52
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

I'd like to add that there are solid state which sound "colored" as well.
And coloration and musicality are two very different notions.
We audiophiles are looking for the most neutral devices so we don't have to compensate this by that. But it has to be musical as well.

On another hand, some devices are lighlty colored but still highly desirable as they're extremely musical. Like the legendary tube tuner Marantz 10B which is the absolute best tuner ever because there's no other tuner doing so sweet music. For example teh tuner Goldmund Mimesis
IV (solid state) goes further on hifi criterias (it's the Ferrari of tuner) and it's one of the very best sources on earth (and it costed
10 000 euros when first released) but it's not as musical as the Marantz.

All that to say that figures don't tell much, if nothing about the result.
 
All these descriptions of personal feelings or choice, kinda feels like I am reading a customer review, which is fine, but oliver you quote a lot of different manufactures of amps, tube/valve, HP amps.....Have you actually owned all these different name brands or are you a hi-fi equipment seller, distributor? I just wonder cause I have never heard a tube amp in person nor met anyone who had one, so I only have what I read to go by.
I hope to one day hear one in action.....I doubt I will buy one as they are sold thru 2-step online stores and I don't fancy paying US$5,000.00 for a tube amp.
 
What Dean describes to me in several posts makes sense to seriously look at non valve amps......a glowing glass bottle is pretty but will I really hear the difference between a US$3,000 amp by Jolida and a US$1,000 amp by NAD?
 
My search continues....Thanks gentleman!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 11:30
To give you an image, it's like saying PF is two times better than
Britney Spears...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 10:07
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


The "saltiness" of salt is empiric as well.

Of course when i say a tube is two or four times better than class A transistor, it's an aproximation, like two times more salty.
It can't be measured because we don't have the apropriate tools/criterias for that.

You can quantify dynamic, signal/noise ratio but i'll tell almost nothing if nothing at all about the ability of a given device to "make music".

This is getting pointless and silly. If you use cardinal numbers as a measure of something then you have quantified it - if you say a Class A valve amplifier is two or four times better than a Class A transistor amplifier then you have placed quantified measures on that. Empiric means "by observation or experiment" as opposed to "by calculation or theory" - using theory you can predict the gain and bandwidth of the class A amplifier, with extremely careful modelling you could predict other factors about it - or you can empirically measure them. No matter how well to calculate or predict something, you can only prove it with empirical measurement. Goodness is not an empirical measurment.
 
The information you are talking about cannot be measured or predicted - they are feelings, perceptions and preferances, and those cannot be quantified. You cannot say a valve amplifier is two times better than, or twice as good as, a transistor amplifier, it is complete nonsense.


Edited by Dean - March 03 2011 at 10:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 09:56

The "saltiness" of salt is empiric as well.

Of course when i say a tube is two or four times better than class A transistor, it's an aproximation, like two times more salty.
It can't be measured because we don't have the apropriate tools/criterias for that.

You can quantify dynamic, signal/noise ratio but i'll tell almost nothing if nothing at all about the ability of a given device to "make music".

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 08:34
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


"as good" or "less good" is like the salt is salty and the sugar is sugaree. Everybody agrees on that. It's empiric indeed.
Sugar and salt can be quantified, good cannot - put two times more salt and it is two times more salty, put half as much sugar and it is two times less sugary - BUT you cannot put half as much "good" into something, it will not be two times less "good" - that is not empiric, it certainly isn't objective, in fact that barely manages to be subjective. Empiric is something that is measured by observation - but it still has to be measured.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 08:13

"as good" or "less good" is like the salt is salty and the sugar is sugaree. Everybody agrees on that. It's empiric indeed.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 06:42
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Yes of course, there are different kinds of solid state, i used to have
a pure Class A headphone amp. The sound was excellent, very close to tube...but not as good. IN THE LOW and EXTREME LOW HOWEVER, SOLID STATE IS UNBEATABLE.

BUT THE FIRST PRIORITY (when you don't have an unlimited budget)IS TO HAVE GREAT HIGHS & MID HIGHS.

A PURE "CLASS A" AMP FOR A HOME SYSTEM WILL COSTS at least 4 TIMES MORE THAN TUBE AND IS TWO TIMES LESS GOOD IN THE HIGHS THAN TUBE.
You really must stop making these polemic statements if you don't wish us to respond. Unhappy
 
You are using phrases like "as good" and "less good" as quantifable empiric measures, which they are most certainly not. You are even giving the impression that "Class A" is a measure of worth, which is it is not.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 06:30
I'd like to add that there are solid state which sound "colored" as well.
And coloration and musicality are two very different notions.
We audiophiles are looking for the most neutral devices so we don't have to compensate this by that. But it has to be musical as well.

On another hand, some devices are lighlty colored but still highly desirable as they're extremely musical. Like the legendary tube tuner Marantz 10B which is the absolute best tuner ever because there's no other tuner doing so sweet music. For example teh tuner Goldmund Mimesis
IV (solid state) goes further on hifi criterias (it's the Ferrari of tuner) and it's one of the very best sources on earth (and it costed
10 000 euros when first released) but it's not as musical as the Marantz.

All that to say that figures don't tell much, if nothing about the result.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 05:07
Yes of course, there are different kinds of solid state, i used to have
a pure Class A headphone amp. The sound was excellent, very close to tube...but not as good. IN THE LOW and EXTREME LOW HOWEVER, SOLID STATE IS UNBEATABLE.

BUT THE FIRST PRIORITY (when you don't have an unlimited budget)IS TO HAVE GREAT HIGHS & MID HIGHS.

A PURE "CLASS A" AMP FOR A HOME SYSTEM WILL COSTS at least 4 TIMES MORE THAN TUBE AND IS TWO TIMES LESS GOOD IN THE HIGHS THAN TUBE.

Edited by oliverstoned - March 03 2011 at 06:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 04:04
^^ so by "yes" you mean that tube amps aren't really audiophile? Because last time I checked, audiophile means reproducing the original recording as accurately as possible.


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - March 03 2011 at 04:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 03:56
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
MosFETS
 
 
Wasn't that a place or thing in Star Wars??
 
(sorry my bad...Cry)
MOSFETS are cooler than Star Wars (honest).
 
MOSFETS (Metal Oxide Silicon Field Effect Transistor) and Bipolar Transistor are not the same, and while both are called "solid-state" it is unfair to tar both with the same brush.
 
MOSFETS work in a similar way to valves and have very similar transfer characteristics, (the relationship from input signal to output signal) - on the negative side what MOSFETS don't have is an nice glass bottle and a nice glowing heater, but on the plus side they don't need a nasty 400V high-tension supply or nasty matching transformers to drive a speaker.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 02:16
"What you get with valves and vinyl is that colouration in the mids and tops that agrees with our ears, not what is flat, linear and distortion free."

Yes and when you add great solid state in the low you reach musical bliss!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 01:41
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

OK...anyway i don't consider a musical system without tubes in the highs or full tubes...a big system with only solid state amplification is a joke. Even the best solid state sound cold, electronic in the mid/highs.
See, you wouldn't get into these polemic arguments if you stopped making polemic statements. Tongue
 
Valves/tubes are great, they are also wonderfully cool to own and look at.
 
MosFETS are great, and have remarkably similar characteristics to valves/tubes, but are not as wonderfully cool to own or look at.
 
What gives valved/tubed systems their colouration is the output matching transformer, not the bottle. If you like that warm harmonic distortion on your music (and most of us do) then go for it. Big smile
 

See, you did't consider that in his threads, Oliver get's to decide what's polemic.LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2011 at 01:38
The Nad phono stage is not TOO bad but that's far from being a good one.
But that's another story.

Nad is what i recommend for teh cheaper possible setup because it's very musical for integrated solid state, a warm sound closer to the real live thing than many more expensive solid states.

But it's still light years away from tube in the mid/highs.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2011 at 17:12
^ NAD make a pretty good external Phono stage, but it is external. (then few amps have phono stage now-a-days)
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