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StyLaZyn 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: November 22 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4079 |
 Posted: June 04 2009 at 06:53 |
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I think it's a reflection of the power that record companies and mainstream media have over people. It's not about having guts, IMO, its about being force fed the same old dumbed down crap. If Prog was promoted, you'd see more artists emerge in this genre. As of now, you have to hope the youth stumble onto it and find it amazing.
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fuxi
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: March 08 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2459 |
Posted: June 04 2009 at 02:08 |
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Your fascinating description of today's bland campus life equally applies to the U.K., I think. All the media here are dominated by uninspiring (or totally manufactured) copycat artists and bands. It can't be a coincidence that England is one of the worst countries for prog right now. People just don't have the GUTS. |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: June 03 2009 at 12:24 |
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I believe it's the generation, society, mass media, etc. On our days we had Shinning Path killing 50,000 Peruvians, so politics was important, today we have no political leaders, hey they elected an exotic dancer as Congresswoman who's campaign was drawing a Nº 13 (her number in the list) in her butt and couldn't talk about anything. Religion was one of the few things that stopped some people from joining Shinning Path, so we had terrible discussions with the radical Maoists who of course were atheists by dogma more than by belief but were obsessed in destroying religion. Today people who publicly care about religion are the fanatics, and those who reject it don't care of making campaign because there's no point, being that if not even the millionaire Evangelist churches can decrease the number of Catholics, hardly they will achieve anything. Society today is mainly about comfort, specialization is the priority, a lawyer from my days can take, civil, penal, labor and even family case (Tax lawyers were always a separate universe), so we had to learn about everything to be versatile, it was easier for us to discuss politics, philosophy or theology, because we were like learning machines Today people leave the university knowing a lot of just one thing, even civil lawyers are divided into theory lawyers and Process lawyers, so nobody cares about anything that is not their own little universe, There is a propaganda that says "We teach laws, but not for trial, to reach agreements"......For God's sake, that's stupid, because people will fight for what they believe they are entitled, but kids buy this crap and they can avoid the classes on process..What kind of lawyer doesn't know process? A few months ago one of the approached to me to offer a ridiculous settle agreement, I just replied...See you in court, first he went pale, then he said i had to talk with my client, that I am that kind of lawyers that destroy advance, that how could I go to court instead of reaching an agreement, the guy was terrified.....Next week he offered twice the original agreement and only then I accepted....If he knew about trials, he probably had won, my client had made stupid mistakes (Legal but stupid), only because I was sure i could beat the crap out of him in a court based on his fear, he offered me what I expected.
They claim that they avoid confrontation...For God's sake a trial is essentially confrontational! If you don't want confrontation don't study laws.
In my time we ate homemade food on a traditional cafeteria where you could stay for hours talking with 10 guys in a big table) You just had to buy a coffee each 30 minutes) , today they have all the comforts, Mc Donald's, Burger King, KFC in personal tables with huge plasma TV's where they see all the top 40 stars and soccer...So who cares about dabete if you can see the Premiere League? Until a couple years ago i taught Constitutional Law, and the constant question when I was talking was...Will this ebnter in the test? In our days we listened everything because the teacher has more experience and we wanted to learn from it, today only test is important.
Everything is designed to create a comformist generation of kids not ready to challenge the status quo.
Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 03 2009 at 12:31 |
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infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2447 |
Posted: June 03 2009 at 12:06 |
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Well, I find the music on both to be quite "moving". The lyrics, well, I guess I'd agree that the lyrics on ? are better in that regard. I have an undergraduate degree in religious studies, so I'm quite familiar with the bible, especially the Old Testament, and I think that has a lot to do with the appeal of the ? lyrics to me. Ultimately though, I can't be a Christian, as I don't believe in Christ (divinity specifically, but I'm not convinced there was an actual historical figure either........not convinced either way on that score really). So Neal's lyrics only ever go so far with me. |
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KingCrimson250
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 29 2008 Status: Offline Points: 573 |
Posted: June 03 2009 at 10:56 |
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That's very interesting. What do you think contributed to the overall decline in the Universities then? Is it the influence of the mass media and their portrayal of university as a "party place?" Is it just a general lack of maturity among young adults today? Or is it just because there's very little that's perceived as being worth caring about anymore ("everyone knows that philosophy is useless, all religions are basically the same, and besides you can't prove that a God does/doesn't exist, so there's no point in talking theology, politics aren't important because democracy is the only way and all candidates lie anyway so who cares who you vote for, or if you vote at all, etc, so let's just go out and enjoy life")?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: June 03 2009 at 10:48 |
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What happens is simple, threads are as your kids, once they leave your control they take different paths and you can't control them.
Every religious related thread will bring up issues as Christianism, celibacy, bigotry, fanaticism, etc But as Raff said, it's positive, people lately cares for few things, and having this number of responses, means people care about spiritual issues, something strange, because people tend to more superficial lately. For example, in my days in the university, elections were important, we had active participation, the discussions in the big patio were really interesting or we went to our old cafeteria, took a coffee and talked for hours about Philosophy, Theology, etc. Our elections sometimes took until 4 or 5 am counting votes and discussing one by one the conflictive votes, there was such a polarization between radical communists and all of us who were against this radical positions that almost 90% of the students voted. Last month I went to ask for a copy of my diploma, and I found it full of kids playing with frisbees, the place was full of fast food restaurants, vending machines everywhere, nobody cared about anything I went to visit the students federation from which I was Vice President (The first Democratic one after 30 years of Maoism) and the President who knew me because the old documents I signed and a photo of some of us stopping a strike not approved by the federation, This kid told me only 5% of the students voted.and that they cared more about the spring Festival than to talk about Philosophy or Theology. The universal spirit of the university was lost At least in this forum we keep the interest and you should be glad your thread has grown so much. |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: June 03 2009 at 08:25 |
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I know this thread focused mainly on Morse's Sola Scripture, but that album hardly "moved" me either.
But his ? album...amazing and inspiring in almost every way. |
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infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2447 |
Posted: June 03 2009 at 08:03 |
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Well I know some very friendly atheists. I just know I am not strictly an atheist myself, but I've felt that I was in the past (or tried to be I suppose). In any case, you and I seem to have quite similar views. Except that I DO believe an afterlife is possible, just not necessarily in the way that any religion describes it (or maybe so, since no one can ever answer such a question with any certainty). As to lyrics, I tend to agree. Even Jon Anderson's lyrics (on later Yes albums anyway) can be what I consider "preachy". And there are certainly a great deal of non-religious preachy lyrics in prog and other genre's as well. But my view is that if an artist feels strongly enough about something to feel the need to "preach" to people about it through their music, I'm willing to consider their views. I may reject them, I may agree, or I may be indifferent. But if I don't care for the music, then the message really isn't going to get to me in any case. And if I love the music, then the message is not going to turn me away from it. I listened to Sola Scriptura a couple nights ago, after first reading this thread. I must say, I still love the music, and aside from the overwroght ballad (track 3), they lyrics don't bother me and fit the music quite well. Does Neals message move me in any way? Not really. But the music does, and that is enough for me. Edited by infandous - June 03 2009 at 08:05 |
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 29 2005 Location: None Status: Offline Points: 24429 |
Posted: June 03 2009 at 06:54 |
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Sorry about further derailing the thread, but when I saw Ivan's post, I could not help responding... The bolded quote is EXACTLY what happened to my brother at the same age (he was in high school), though the organisation involved this time was indeed Opus Dei. As to the questions posed by the thread starter, well, topics such as this are very likely to give rise to flame wars, or at least to heated arguments, and to go somewhat off topic. Anyway, I think you should be happy you got such a response - it doesn't happen too often these days, and it's a sight better than having people argue about Dream Theater or Yes. |
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Marty McFly
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2009 Location: Czech Republic Status: Offline Points: 3968 |
Posted: June 03 2009 at 06:47 |
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I passed out for few days and meanwhile I've returned to this forum. And I passed out again when I saw this thread of such a size.
I'm little bit scared, that it moved away from my original idea, then it witnessed some kind of flame war and now it's cooling down. I'm little bit confused and it probably woudln't be good to read all these "things" and words said. Can I ask what has happened here ? |
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There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless,"
-Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my |
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fuxi
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2459 |
Posted: June 02 2009 at 11:51 |
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Whenever there's a discussion of religious matters on this site, some people say that, although they avoid established religions, they are definitely NOT atheists. (I remember a discussion of the AQUALUNG album. It couldn't be atheist, oh no, it was ONLY an attack on the Christian Church.) Well, let me tell you, folks, I'm a happy atheist, and I've never seen anything which indicates religions are more than fiction. At the same time, I'm convinced I'm a spiritual someone. Bach's B-minor Mass, the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, the Ryoanji rock garden in Kyoto and English Metaphysical poetry turn me on in more ways than you can imagine! Like so many of you, I am convinced that much of the best art in this world is religious in nature. But at the same time (perhaps this will please Ivan?) I like to think I'm a bit like Jorge Luis Borges. This world's myriad beliefs move and fascinate me - but I cannot take any doctrines about the afterlife seriously. In prog terms, the only bearable religious lyrics are non-preachy ones. And where are they? Edited by fuxi - June 02 2009 at 11:55 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: June 02 2009 at 11:11 |
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This sites reinforce my opinion of avoiding fanatism, wherever it comes from.
When I was finishing the school a radical Catholic Group started to recruit people (Not Opus Dei) and I was interested to have a better approach to God.
But when I noticed they only tried to recruit kids from expensive schools (I came from an expensive Catholic School that my parents paid with a lot of effort and hard working because we were never rich), with emphasis in those who were going to join a university plus their really extreme position, I started to doubt.
Then once in the beach a good friend who was member of this movement told me that it was depressive and humilliating to see women in bikinis....This shocked me, because iif the group was able to modify the natural instincts of a 17 years old kid (I only thought in women at that point and most of my friends also), they were capable of anything, then they started to program the reunions on Friday and Saturday nights (Obviously to make us avoid parties and fun), and started to talk about how good it would be to compromise to embrace celibacy without the need of being priests.
They said celibacy was the perfect state, when i asked what would be of humanity if all the people adopted the "perfect state", they called me anti Christian, etc etc etc, I stood up and say good bye..
At that point I found a good priest in the university who told me I didn't required to embrace celibacy or join mysterious semi secret movements to be a good Catholic ,and that i should folow my real feelings, be a good person, the best proffesional possible and always respect God, that's all, so never went back
The funny thing is that i was never a party guy, but, I believe kids must enjoy live and anything that goes against the natural order of things is wrong.
Since that day I go to mass, believe I'm a good person, obey most Catholic rules and precepts, but when i smell fundamentalists, I run.
Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 02 2009 at 11:14 |
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infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2447 |
Posted: June 02 2009 at 09:28 |
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That IS funny! I'm actually familiar with that site, and have read some of their, um, interesting perspectives on various issues. They reinforce my desire to avoid religions like the plague (but NOT belief and spirituality........I'm not an atheist). |
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infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2447 |
Posted: June 02 2009 at 09:26 |
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I never suggested it was unreasonable. In fact, I completely understand their reasons for doing it. I was just stating my opinion about the entire situation of copyright, specifically with regards to music and lyrics. But I certainly don't expect the admins and owners of this site to be able to fix the problems I see with it. I have nothing but respect for the creators of this site, and will abide by any and all rules they deem necessary. |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: June 01 2009 at 17:15 |
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The cover art consists on Front,. Back, Central page and some times booklet, no matter how much we use in our avatars, hardly will reach 50%, in most of the cases not more than 25%.
Iván
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mrcozdude
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 25 2007 Location: Devon,UK. Status: Offline Points: 2078 |
Posted: June 01 2009 at 16:36 |
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"Jim Morrison, superstar of the Doors, who died "mysteriously" on July
3, 1971 was deeply involved in the occult . Morrison married his wife at
a Wicca wedding standing in a pentagram and drinking each others blood."
"He was not a performer. He was not an entertainer. He was not a showman. He was a shaman. He was possessed."  x6476476476467Makes you happy to be an atheist. |
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
Posted: June 01 2009 at 16:22 |
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When we get a legal notice to desist using album covers in the BIOs and as avatars on the forum we will, of course, act. Until then, we'll just make sure we dont fall into the radar too often. It's a balancing act, not hypocrisy. As far as the Admin Team is concerned you could all happily post as much lyrics as you want, after all there's about a gazillion internet sites offering lyrics and using them as a basis to tempt people into downloading illegal ringtones with apparent impunity. The simple fact is that we've been approached/rebuked on a number of occasions and therefore would be stupid not to act. |
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fuxi
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2459 |
Posted: June 01 2009 at 15:47 |
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I found your article through Google, but I can't honestly say I've read it... I spend my days translating Japanese literature, but I'm a Tolkien fan and I live app. 1 kilometre from the house in Northmoor Road where he wrote most of THE LORD OF THE RINGS. It's fascinating that Prog Archives allows you to find so many people with interests similar to your own. 
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Failcore
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 27 2006 Status: Offline Points: 4625 |
Posted: June 01 2009 at 15:12 |
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That paragraph in the homosexual tab about gay ppl being more likely to be sexual psychos is something I hear all the time. Nevermind that there's no evidence to support this. I think these ppl just saw the Andrew Cunanan debacle and just figured, well there ya go, all gays are crazies.  Personally, I'd be more worried about someone with BDSM tendencies going off the rails than just someone who is gay. Edited by Deathrabbit - June 01 2009 at 15:12 |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35571 |
Posted: June 01 2009 at 15:07 |
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I have no problem with religious lyrics, and can like them, depending on how they're handled. And if I don't like the music, of course, I won't like the package however the lyrics are, and it will be more likely that the lyrics will rub me the wrong way.
I generally don't want to feel preached to, and music that reminds me of "Born Again" Christian rock is going to be a hard-sell. I married a born-again Christian and endured far too much of that music during the dating process. I tended to find the music lacking in subtlety, nuances, and textures. We've reconciled our religious differences. I love many traditional hymns, by the way, including more modern takes on them. One of my favourites is Cat Stevens version of Morning has Broken, and I like the Beneath the Planet of the Apes adaptation of "All things bright and beautiful" (the Lord Bomb made them all). I love academic music with religious overtones and inspiration particularly. It seems that religion, and spirituality, can inspire such sublime art. Edited by Logan - June 01 2009 at 15:10 |
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Religious lyrics ?
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fuxi wrote:
. Unfortunately, the HarperCollins affair is true, and shows once more what kind of power copyright holders can have.