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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 19:56

Tool has given me hope that you can still be successful and popular by making music on your own tems, just like our prog heroes in the 70's. The secret, like back then, is that you have to be very very good at it to stand out from the crowd.

 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 18:31
I am also a member of the "Tool is prog??? camp".  I seem to be finding a lot of bands on PA lately that don't seem like prog to me but have been brought under the umbrella.  I think that it is a matter of where my central point is on the prog charts.  I am by no means a Tool expert.  My exposure to date is 10,000 Days and Undertow.  I agree with the grunge label but I don't see the prog label from my tastes.  I got Undertow when it first came out and I really didn't know what to make of it at the time.  I guess "good grunge" but I preferred Pearl Jam/Soundgarden.  Since joining PA, I did purchase 10,000 Days, and I have also picked up a couple of their other albums but I have not had the chance to listen to them yet, so I suppose my opinion could still change.
 
I borrowed Meshuggah's Catch-33 from my local library to give them a listen.  To me this was some of the most god-awful noise I had ever heard.  (sorry not constructive but my first opinion on a band that I have seen as highly recommended by some on this website).
 
For me Opeth has been a third disappointment for me in regards to ProgArchives' recommendations.  The music and clean vocals are really good, but I for one cannot get past the death growls or "cookie monster" vocals.  They just ruin the whole experience for me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 17:53
Originally posted by GoldenSpiral GoldenSpiral wrote:

A couple years ago when I first started here at this site, there was a thread exactly like this one in which someone said that Tool is not prog and there's no way to prove that they are.

I then went to the 'Definition of Progressive Rock' page on PA, copied and pasted, and then listed ways in which Tool fulfills every single one of the aspects of progressive music listed here.

Since there's about 4 million threads just like this, I cant find that post,  but it's there.

trust me.  Wink


Here:

Originally posted by GoldenSpiral GoldenSpiral wrote:


The Following are -quotes/not necessarily universal characteristics- from the "Prog Rock?" definition page:

let's have a look, shall we....?

"Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes, with intricate melodies and harmonies that require repeated listening to grasp."
Tool's songs are epics in their own right, they average over 7 minutes, "Third Eye" on Aenima is over 13 minutes.  The songs "Disposition" "Reflection" and "Triad" on Lateralus were originally conceived as one song, but later split.  together they add up to over 20 minutes.

"Lyrics that convey intricate and sometimes impenetrable narratives, covering such themes as science fiction, fantasy, history, religion, war, love, and madness."
Umm..... listen to Lateralus or Aenima.  they lyrics are quite dense, but are more metaphysical then storytelling.

"Concept albums, in which a theme or storyline is explored throughout an entire album in a manner similar to a film or a play."
Lateralus and Aenima could each be argued as a concept album, but loosely as in a DSOTM sort of concept.  Not all prog bands need concept albums anyway.

"Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma, Robert Wyatt, and Gentle Giant."
Maynard has an unusual vocal style.  if you cannot hear that, try listening.

"Prominent use of electronic instrumentation — particularly keyboard instruments such as the organ, piano, Mellotron, and Moog synthesizer..."
Not all prog bands use these, but a good portion of Danny Carey's drum set is electronic, plus he uses tabla drums.

"Use of unusual time signatures, scales, or tunings. Many pieces use multiple time signatures and/or tempi, sometimes concurrently. Solo passages for virtually every instrument, designed to showcase the virtuosity of the player."
While Tool does not generally indulge in outright displays of virtuosity, they CERTAINLY use unusual time signatures.  Take the RADIO SINGLE "Scism" for example, which is in 12/8 time comprised of alternating measures of 5/8 and 7/8.  Their other RADIO SINGLE "Lateralus" features a 3-measure chorus riff in which each measure progresses from 9/8 to 8/8 to 7/8.  These are only 2 examples out of many.

"Inclusion of classical pieces on albums. For example, Yes start their concerts with a taped extract of Stravinsky's Firebird suite..."
So they dont draw from classical influences directly.  so what?

"An aesthetic linking the music with visual art, a trend started by The Beatles with Sgt. Pepper's and enthusiastically embraced during the prog heyday."

This is one of the aspects of prog Tool does best.  The guitarist Adam Jones does the art direction for each album himself, often contributing his own work.  the Lateralus art was done by artist Alex Grey, whose other works were featured during Tool's performances on the Lateralus tour.

Ask yourself how many of these apply to Tool. Yes, as the person I have quoted has asked, do please check the definition page. I've attempted to play devil's advocate in an unbias way in response to a Tool-fan - and that is all.

ALL OF THEM APPLY TO TOOL.
any thing else I can help you with?


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 17:34

I think the closest thing to a "Greatest Hits" we might ever get from Tool is a live album or DVD. I think (hope) they're one of the few bands out there who would never release a GH album. They (Maynard especially) seem too delibrately non-commercial for that.

Speaking of commercial, what do you guys think of their shows? I've been to two, and they were both "greatest hits ever meets some new songs from 10k days" ... I would've much rather enjoyed an "experience" show, complete with improvs and a unique setlist. The performance was powerful, tho.
 
....maybe there's a tool appr. thread in which I can yap about them
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 17:26
Pointless thread that should be closed. Thumbs%20Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 17:22
A couple years ago when I first started here at this site, there was a thread exactly like this one in which someone said that Tool is not prog and there's no way to prove that they are.

I then went to the 'Definition of Progressive Rock' page on PA, copied and pasted, and then listed ways in which Tool fulfills every single one of the aspects of progressive music listed here.

Since there's about 4 million threads just like this, I cant find that post,  but it's there.

trust me.  Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 17:20
Originally posted by magnus magnus wrote:


Originally posted by ProgBagel ProgBagel wrote:

Originally posted by explodingjosh explodingjosh wrote:

Originally posted by ProgBagel ProgBagel wrote:

No care for them at all... They seem to be a pretty overrated band to me. Tool is the only band that takes 3-5 years between albums that still contains 3-5 useless filler tracks. And cut the crap out of lyrical content...their just high beyond belief. I love when people try to make sense of their lyrics. And tell me their playing in 33/22 time...ugh!

 

Well that was a 'useless post' comment.

 

If you enjoy an interesting drummer, I'd reccommend Tool, or any of the Adrian Belew solo "Sides" with Danney Carey.

 

Guess what... I make alot of sense out of ther lyics. They're actually pretty straight forward.


Actually, it was a pretty decent argument and you answered it with a useless post.

I find Danney Carey interesting and the bassist too...actually, I adore him.

Also, I think the lyrics are straightfoward, but I took a quote out of a review for the album...shows how people take these straightforward lyrics and turn them into something there not.
"
Last remarkable song of Aenima is its title track. The lyrics of “Aenima” are about Southern California being all washed beneath the surface of the sea after some kind of disaster. It seems like Maynard James Keenan hates LA and wants to flush it all away. If we look deeper at what’s behind those lyrics is seems to me that the band is just outing its disapproval of the “emptiness” we have in our lives today. The more we work, the more we have, the less our lives become worth. We should go “back to basics” some times to really take the most out of our lives and learn how to estimate its true value again."

How did he come up with that?...I would really, really like to know.

Seems to me your hate for Tool lies with their fans, not the actual music...


Well I already mentioned the useless filler tracks but I'll put it this way, Tool makes some great songs, just not great albums.

If they put out a greatest hits album, or even combine the good songs from two albums together it would be 5 stars.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 17:02

Oh, meinmatrix, if you wanna hear something melodic and (IMO) absolutely gorgeous, listen to the guitar solos in Parabola. I get goosebumps eveytime I hear them.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 17:00
Originally posted by ProgBagel ProgBagel wrote:

Originally posted by explodingjosh explodingjosh wrote:

Originally posted by ProgBagel ProgBagel wrote:

No care for them at all... They seem to be a pretty overrated band to me. Tool is the only band that takes 3-5 years between albums that still contains 3-5 useless filler tracks. And cut the crap out of lyrical content...their just high beyond belief. I love when people try to make sense of their lyrics. And tell me their playing in 33/22 time...ugh!

 

Well that was a 'useless post' comment.

 

If you enjoy an interesting drummer, I'd reccommend Tool, or any of the Adrian Belew solo "Sides" with Danney Carey.

 

Guess what... I make alot of sense out of ther lyics. They're actually pretty straight forward.


Actually, it was a pretty decent argument and you answered it with a useless post.

I find Danney Carey interesting and the bassist too...actually, I adore him.

Also, I think the lyrics are straightfoward, but I took a quote out of a review for the album...shows how people take these straightforward lyrics and turn them into something there not.
"
Last remarkable song of Aenima is its title track. The lyrics of “Aenima” are about Southern California being all washed beneath the surface of the sea after some kind of disaster. It seems like Maynard James Keenan hates LA and wants to flush it all away. If we look deeper at what’s behind those lyrics is seems to me that the band is just outing its disapproval of the “emptiness” we have in our lives today. The more we work, the more we have, the less our lives become worth. We should go “back to basics” some times to really take the most out of our lives and learn how to estimate its true value again."

How did he come up with that?...I would really, really like to know.



Seems to me your hate for Tool lies with their fans, not the actual music...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 16:55
Originally posted by ProgBagel ProgBagel wrote:

Originally posted by explodingjosh explodingjosh wrote:

Originally posted by ProgBagel ProgBagel wrote:

No care for them at all... They seem to be a pretty overrated band to me. Tool is the only band that takes 3-5 years between albums that still contains 3-5 useless filler tracks. And cut the crap out of lyrical content...their just high beyond belief. I love when people try to make sense of their lyrics. And tell me their playing in 33/22 time...ugh!

 

Well that was a 'useless post' comment.

 

If you enjoy an interesting drummer, I'd reccommend Tool, or any of the Adrian Belew solo "Sides" with Danney Carey.

 

Guess what... I make alot of sense out of ther lyics. They're actually pretty straight forward.


Actually, it was a pretty decent argument and you answered it with a useless post.

I find Danney Carey interesting and the bassist too...actually, I adore him.

Also, I think the lyrics are straightfoward, but I took a quote out of a review for the album...shows how people take these straightforward lyrics and turn them into something there not.
"
Last remarkable song of Aenima is its title track. The lyrics of “Aenima” are about Southern California being all washed beneath the surface of the sea after some kind of disaster. It seems like Maynard James Keenan hates LA and wants to flush it all away. If we look deeper at what’s behind those lyrics is seems to me that the band is just outing its disapproval of the “emptiness” we have in our lives today. The more we work, the more we have, the less our lives become worth. We should go “back to basics” some times to really take the most out of our lives and learn how to estimate its true value again."

How did he come up with that?...I would really, really like to know.

 
Thinking, probably. He took the lyrics and the message and applied it to his view of the world, or atleast LA. Nothing wrong with that, I would actually argue that what he did is better than taking the lyrics literally. He's applying ideas, he may be in the minority as far as lyrical interpretations go, because I think MJK just hates LA and loves Bill Hicks' comedy, but music is subjective, to each his own I guess.
 
In all honesty, meinmatrix, I believe Tool is a very talented bass made of 4 very talented musicians who take musical cues mostly from King Crimson and grunge alternative, a genre in which Tool were created. IMO they are about as melodic as 90s/2000s King Crimson as well, which is, not very melodic at all. I think that they are sometimes hated on because of their popularity, and their sketchy fanbase, which are awful reasons not to explore or enjoy a band. I would suggest reading the reviews on 10k days, Lateralus and AEnema to see why people do or do not like this band, but don't let it influence your opinion juust yet. Then take the time to sit and listen without prejudice, but also kind of have in mind the reasons (gimmicks?) why other poeple enjoy this music. If you have dedicated a good amount of time listening to the albums to see if they resonate with you, and at the same time listened for the things that most people enjoy about Tool, and you still don't enjoy the band, then that's all you can do. You've done the proper work needed to deeply enjoy the music, and its all up to brain chemistry and subjectivity in taste (e.g. 'no melody') from that point on. No need to force yourself to enjoy anything, that is pretense.          
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 14:54
Tool is not something you get into, you must let Tool get into you.



A wrenching experience.

Tool doesn't turn me on either, but I do respect the band never-the-less.  If a band doesn't click, I tend to just move on.  There are lots of bands that don't do it for me in the archives.  As to whether or not they're Prog, it depends on how Prog is defined.  There's lots of music I love at this site, and not on this site, considered to be part of the "Prog" categories represented here that I wouldn't strictly define as Prog (progressive music, sure, but not purist Prog -- music that is embraced by many under the Prog umbrella...).

Try TAAL instead (if you haven't already).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 14:37
I don't get where those lyrics come from either, but I love Tool's music. My favorite song from Aenima is "H".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 14:32
Originally posted by explodingjosh explodingjosh wrote:

Originally posted by ProgBagel ProgBagel wrote:

No care for them at all... They seem to be a pretty overrated band to me. Tool is the only band that takes 3-5 years between albums that still contains 3-5 useless filler tracks. And cut the crap out of lyrical content...their just high beyond belief. I love when people try to make sense of their lyrics. And tell me their playing in 33/22 time...ugh!

 

Well that was a 'useless post' comment.

 

If you enjoy an interesting drummer, I'd reccommend Tool, or any of the Adrian Belew solo "Sides" with Danney Carey.

 

Guess what... I make alot of sense out of ther lyics. They're actually pretty straight forward.


Actually, it was a pretty decent argument and you answered it with a useless post.

I find Danney Carey interesting and the bassist too...actually, I adore him.

Also, I think the lyrics are straightfoward, but I took a quote out of a review for the album...shows how people take these straightforward lyrics and turn them into something there not.
"
Last remarkable song of Aenima is its title track. The lyrics of “Aenima” are about Southern California being all washed beneath the surface of the sea after some kind of disaster. It seems like Maynard James Keenan hates LA and wants to flush it all away. If we look deeper at what’s behind those lyrics is seems to me that the band is just outing its disapproval of the “emptiness” we have in our lives today. The more we work, the more we have, the less our lives become worth. We should go “back to basics” some times to really take the most out of our lives and learn how to estimate its true value again."

How did he come up with that?...I would really, really like to know.



Edited by ProgBagel - August 21 2007 at 14:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 13:54
Originally posted by ProgBagel ProgBagel wrote:

No care for them at all...
They seem to be a pretty overrated band to me.
Tool is the only band that takes 3-5 years between albums that still contains 3-5 useless filler tracks.


And cut the crap out of lyrical content...their just high beyond belief. I love when people try to make sense of their lyrics.

And tell me their playing in 33/22 time...ugh!
 
Well that was a useless post.
 
If you enjoy an interesting drummer, I'd reccommend Tool, or any of the Adrian Belew solo "Sides" with Danney Carey.
 
Guess what... I make alot of sense out of ther lyics. They're actually pretty straight forward.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 13:20
No care for them at all...
They seem to be a pretty overrated band to me.
Tool is the only band that takes 3-5 years between albums that still contains 3-5 useless filler tracks.


And cut the crap out of lyrical content...their just high beyond belief. I love when people try to make sense of their lyrics.

And tell me their playing in 33/22 time...ugh!

Edited by ProgBagel - August 21 2007 at 13:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 13:16
I hate tool what a crap band they are they suck so much and not prog not not not........ ohh noo i cant go on and lie like this i simply cant, i love tool i love em i love me i love em! Hug

Edited by Zargus - August 21 2007 at 13:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 13:05

I don't care if they're prog or not. I like their music and that's what matters the most to me.

Of course, they weren't much proggy in their earliest days (pre-Ænima) but their other albums are definitely prog, although not in the traditional way I suppose.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 12:47
Tool is masterliness!
 
They're subject matter stretches way beyond any "grunge metal"
 
Just they're artisticness alone is progressive.
 
Maynard can hit a huge range just listen to the contast fromThe grudge and the pot
 
Adam Jones' conservative and very technical guitar playing itself is far beyong any metal/grunge guitar player.
 
I have made many lines for you people to quote and say how stupid I am so I can crush you into the dust... now c;mon BRING IT!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 12:41
Originally posted by TheProgtologist TheProgtologist wrote:

I never rise to the bait in negative Tool threads anymore.
 
If you don't like them,no problem.It's all a matter of opinion,isn't it?
 
Agreed.
 
OMG, if there was a hate thread about every person who hates a Prog band this place would be a mess. There are a good number of bands many like and I really don't , but shouting out each one serves no purpose. It's childish.
 
No one is forcing me to listen to their music either. Live and let live, right?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2007 at 09:21
Tool was the first progressive band I started to listen to.  My two best friends had been listening to them for months, but I was a stubborn little ass and only listened to classic rock (yeah, I was one of those kids, not proud of it).  I only had to listen to Lateralus (the song) once.  Being a musician myself, and a fairly angry person (Big%20smile), I guess it was easier to connect to Tool's style. 

But despite what many people say, Tool is very progressive. Compare them to the other bands that were active when they were in the 90s: The Smashing Pumpkins, Soundgarden, Stone Temple Pilots.  All bands I DO listen to, but none of their songs, in musical composition and lyrical content, don't hold a candle to Tool.  I too, thought they were just metal at first, but in comparison to other bands of their era, it's easier to see.

Also, something to understand about Tool fans is that a lot of us are not progheads. Plenty of kids at my school who love Aenima heavily disliked 10,000 Days because it was more progressive and less metal. Just to clear that up for Tapfret :)
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