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Crushed Aria 
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Joined: October 01 2005
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 Posted: December 24 2006 at 09:48 |
 Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Most people here knows more than you believe Crushed Aria and rarely speak about something they don't have idea about. |
Well, I don't expect to know more about prog rock than people here, but I do see alot of unchecked musical stupidity going around here when not in regards to prog rock.
Edited by Crushed Aria - December 24 2006 at 09:49
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 23 2006 at 23:19 |
The Miracle wrote:
Aside from a couple songs on Leitmotif(Symbol Song and Yatahaze), NOTHING by Dredg is hardcore. El Cielo and Catch Without Arms are pure melodic art rock without s single scream or heavy passage.
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Thanks Miracle, you made my whole point, I never said oit was a 100% EMO hardcore band, but did say they had some EMO moments, something you have admited in your last post.
If I'm not wrong, those are the songs I mentioned in my initial post.
Iván
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The Miracle
Prog Reviewer
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Points: 28427
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Posted: December 23 2006 at 22:20 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Crushed Aria wrote:
| I think this is where I mention that "progressive" and "prog" need to be differentiated from, and that anyone who calls dredg emo has absolutely no idea as to what they're talking about. |
Nobody has said Dredg is a pure EMO band, not even mainly EMO, SCREAMO, Emotional Hardcore or how ever you want to call them, I believe that all those who don't believe Dredg is Prog have said that it's mainly Alternative/Indie, with some moments or explotions similar to EMO.
Most people here knows more than you believe Crushed Aria and rarely speak about something they don't have idea about.
BTW, the terms Prog as an abreviation for the genre called Progressive Rock and progressive as an adjective that describes a more elaborate or advanced approach to music than normal mainstream is clearly different, we've been talking about this two terms since Prog Archives was founded.
Iván |
Aside from a couple songs on Leitmotif(Symbol Song and Yatahaze), NOTHING by Dredg is hardcore. El Cielo and Catch Without Arms are pure melodic art rock without s single scream or heavy passage. You *obviously* don't hear the same we hear, you say they are unemotional and dull, I find them extremely varied and emotional, in fact CwA is one of the most beautiful records I've ever heard. Your opinion respected, but you don't seem to get what most of us hear in their music 
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 23 2006 at 20:39 |
Crushed Aria wrote:
| I think this is where I mention that "progressive" and "prog" need to be differentiated from, and that anyone who calls dredg emo has absolutely no idea as to what they're talking about. |
Nobody has said Dredg is a pure EMO band, not even mainly EMO, SCREAMO, Emotional Hardcore or how ever you want to call them, I believe that all those who don't believe Dredg is Prog have said that it's mainly Alternative/Indie, with some moments or explotions similar to EMO.
Most people here knows more than you believe Crushed Aria and rarely speak about something they don't have idea about.
BTW, the terms Prog as an abreviation for the genre called Progressive Rock and progressive as an adjective that describes a more elaborate or advanced approach to music than normal mainstream is clearly different, we've been talking about this two terms since Prog Archives was founded.
Iván
EDIT: Both Alternative and EMO have their roots in the late 70's Punk, so why shouldn't they have some crossover points despite the different evolution they have suffered?
BTW: Most of the EMO sites consider DREDG as Post-EMO-Indie/Rock, if you Google Dredg EMO, you will obtain 112,000 links
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 23 2006 at 22:46
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Philéas
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 14 2006
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Points: 6419
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Posted: December 23 2006 at 16:50 |
Crushed Aria wrote:
I think this is where I mention that "progressive"
and "prog" need to be differentiated from, and that anyone who calls
dredg emo has absolutely no idea as to what they're talking about.
Emo =/= FOB-esque pop-rock
Emo = Rites of Spring styled emotive hardcore
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I'll have to applaud you here! 
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Crushed Aria
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 01 2005
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Points: 184
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Posted: December 23 2006 at 14:25 |
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I think this is where I mention that "progressive" and "prog" need to be differentiated from, and that anyone who calls dredg emo has absolutely no idea as to what they're talking about.
Emo =/= FOB-esque pop-rock
Emo = Rites of Spring styled emotive hardcore
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KeyserSoze
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Posted: December 21 2006 at 16:47 |
The Miracle wrote:
Keyser, it's pronounced like the word "dredge", rhyming with "badge |
Thanks
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 21 2006 at 13:30 |
Harkmark wrote:
Quote Ivan...
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I didn't even knew they were already here, if not, I would not wasted my trime because the policy of the site (Which I respect and support 100%) is that if a band is already here can't be moved.
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Oh really??? Then what about Labradford, Den Fule and Hedningarna (and a couple of other Swedish neo-folk bands, if I remember right) ???  The policy obviously is open to modifications...
Where they listed in Prog Archives?
(At least Labradford and Den Fule deserved to be on this site IMO. Labradford in postrock or progressive electronic and Den Fule in prog folk)
Don't know or heard about them if they were removed from this site, there might have been some reasons, until now I only know about two cases, one a band without any album released and another one was a musical called Quasimodo Prince of Fools that was listed as:
Band: Quasimodo
Album: King of Fools
As for the few dredg songs I have heard, I did not think of it as prog. The mp3 on this site almost sounds like a mix between Fugazi and Red Hot Chili Peppers IMO. The songs I have heard from their latest album sounded quite a bit like A-ha... Indie rock, but I have not yet heard enough to have a fully qualified opinion.
Neither do I, but that's not my call, they are already listed in Prog Archives and won't go.
Iván
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 21 2006 at 13:31
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Harkmark
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Joined: October 29 2005
Location: Norway
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Points: 538
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Posted: December 21 2006 at 12:41 |
Quote Ivan...
[/quote]
I didn't even knew they were already here, if not, I would not wasted my trime because the policy of the site (Which I respect and support 100%) is that if a band is already here can't be moved.
[/QUOTE] Oh really??? Then what about Labradford, Den Fule and Hedningarna (and a couple of other Swedish neo-folk bands, if I remember right) ??? The policy obviously is open to modifications... (At least Labradford and Den Fule deserved to be on this site IMO. Labradford in postrock or progressive electronic and Den Fule in prog folk) As for the few dredg songs I have heard, I did not think of it as prog. The mp3 on this site almost sounds like a mix between Fugazi and Red Hot Chili Peppers IMO. The songs I have heard from their latest album sounded quite a bit like A-ha... Indie rock, but I have not yet heard enough to have a fully qualified opinion.
Edited by Harkmark - December 21 2006 at 12:42
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 21 2006 at 10:41 |
Philéas wrote:
Seriously, I don't see any reason for anyone to get so worked up. The debate could go on forever, why don't everyone just accept the fact that people can't always agree?
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Agree with you 100%, but I don't like being accused of being arrogant or offending somebody just because I believe a band is not Prog.
Iván
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Philéas
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Joined: June 14 2006
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Posted: December 21 2006 at 03:23 |
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Seriously, I don't see any reason for anyone to get so worked up. The debate could go on forever, why don't everyone just accept the fact that people can't always agree?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 20 2006 at 21:46 |
Bryan wrote:
Sigh...
All I'm saying is that I wish you would be a little more respectful of those of us who do and not adress us as though we're WRONG. |
I didn't said you're wrong, I gave MY OPINION that can be different to yours.
I have read less aggressive responses against posts saying "all who believe this album is prog are stupid", something I have never done and never will do.
All my argument is sumarized in one phrase I wrote in my initial post:
I see no justification to include them.
It's clear I'm giving my personal opoinion of what I see.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 20 2006 at 21:48
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 20 2006 at 21:43 |
Just in case somebody believ4es my opiniojn could have been offensive, I copied my first post:
| Oh please, I agree Dredg is not purely EMO, but it's a hybrid between Grunge, alternative and...oh surpride, their hardcore sound is also characteristic of EMO.
They remind me a bit od System of a Down meets Nirvana, meets Coldplay, but less commercial, I see no Prog connection.
Songs from "El Cielo"
- Same of Road: Alternative
- Sanzen: Alternative/Indie, totally repetitive.
- Triangle: EMO 100%
- Sorry but it's Over: Indie/Alternative
And the rest of the album is the same, monotone tracks with almost no variations, a voice that reminds the most depressive Kurt Cobain, nothing Prog in El Cielo.
Now Leimotiff:
- Movement 1: Starts interesting but then turns into a SOAD imitation.
- Mivement II: Very pretentious title ( Crosswind Minuet
 ) it's only Indie with a touch of Enigma, but still boring.
- Trasversing through the Artic....: Another pretentious long name but nothing special except for the good piano sections.
- Intermission: Again Alternative Indie with a touch of Jazz, but not remotely Prog.
- Movement III: If I had a gun I'd blow my brains, what a waste of good guitar sections.
- Pinguins in the Desert: More Indie.
- Movement IV: I thought I was listening the previous track, can't this guy be a bit more versatile?
- Yatahaee: SOAD plays EMO
- Movement V: Honestly didn't heard it all, sounds weird but weird is not necessarilly Prog.
Didn't asked my cousin to lend me Catch without Arms because for what I read is their most mainstream album.
I see no justification to include them.
Originally posted by Heff
If Porcupine Tree, Radiohead and Muse are considered prog, then I see no reason why Dredg shouldn't be.
Welcome Heff, but I must tell you something being you new in PA.
The "If X is here, why not Y" argument, is not valid, we qualify, accept or reject bands for their own merits, not because another one that we believe is less Proggy is here.
Cheers
Iván |
I have given opinions non stronger than what is said about 100% Prog bands listed here (Just read what is said about ELP or Dream Theater and how some members were insulted for adding Iron Maiden) and have been absolutely careful with offending any member.
I didn't even knew they were already here, if not, I would not wasted my trime because the policy of the site (Which I respect and support 100%) is that if a band is already here can't be moved.
It's clear I insulted no member or was offensive with them.
Iván
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Bryan
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Posted: December 20 2006 at 21:35 |
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Sigh...
At no point did I say you have to bow to my opinion. In fact, the first line of my previous post was "I'm not saying that you aren't allowed to not consider Dredg prog". All I'm saying is that I wish you would be a little more respectful of those of us who do and not adress us as though we're WRONG.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 20 2006 at 21:17 |
Bryan wrote:
I'm not saying that you aren't allowed to not consider Dredg prog, I'm just growing more and more frustrated with how you consistently look down upon those who feel differently. I don't care if Dredg are listed on PA or not, I think they're an outstanding band and I do consider them to be a progressive rock band, but all I care about is that their music is good... I listen to tons of non-prog, it's not like I somehow feel the need to vindicate the bands I like by having them all listed on this site, and I really wish you would stop accusing me (and the rest of us) of doing so.
No Bryan, seems that if you consider a band is Prog we must bow and say OK, no way, that's not how I feel
After analyzing two albums song by song I said what I believed and still believe, I didn't say this album is crap or simply said it's not Prog because I say so, I took the time to analyze both supposedly Prog albums in detail, that's a sign of responsability before giving an opinion.
I didn't offended or ridiculized anybody, this is a free forum and all of us are entitled to give our opinions if we argument them and I think I did it.
About looking down to people who think different than me, that's not the case, I checked song by song and the atmosphere of the album, I found it lacks of variations, so gave my honest argument, if you don't like it, that's your problem, but I'm not offending or insulting anybody.
As for why I think Dredg are prog, my view on it is pretty much something that you'll immediately dismiss given that you're a lawyer and hard evidence is the only way to hold a debate like this for you... it's true that if you break down the individual songs on El Cielo a lot of them are pretty straightforward,
For me all the album is alternative/Indie mostly, I won't change my opinion and don't have to do it, the last time I came here this was a place to post opinions.
I hold my opinion with a responsible analysis, and I feel comfortable with this, never said a hard word or an insult against anybody.
but the same thing could be said of Dark Side of the Moon (an album I think is quite comparable to this one). The way that the whole thing flows and connects together, sort of gradually building in emotional intensity with each passing song until climaxing at the end gives it the feel of being one complete piece with different parts.
I don't listen the same thing you're listening, I think that lacks of variations and found it boring, why should I adapt my opinion to other person's?
Sure there are no mellotrons or 5 minute hammond solos, but as an album it just screams "prog!" to my ears.
Not for my ears, I believe it screams alternative
Feel free to further ridicule me for using a defense like that, but there's no jury here to decide that your argument is stronger than mine Ivan... I (and many others on here) feel that way about this band, and no amount of dissecting each individual segment of their material is going to change that. Sorry.
For what I read there are others who share my opinion and in a much harder way, but apparently we must agree in everything, and that's not the case.
But this is not a contest, if I give an opinion I don't care if I'm the only one (Which is not the case), I'm not used to ridicule people for having different perspectives but I'm, used to give my opinion without caring if it's pópular or not.
BTW: I'm not used to deal with juries, our system doesn't use them.
Iván
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 20 2006 at 21:29
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The Miracle
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Posted: December 20 2006 at 19:31 |
Keyser, it's pronounced like the word "dredge", rhyming with "badge" to you Bryan... impossible to explain, isn't it? You have to feel the prog in them. " This world is a comedy to those that think; a tragedy to those that feel" El Cielo is indeed somewhat similar to DSOTM. There are even rumors that El Cielo syncs with some movie Anyway, magnificent album by a magnificent band, enjoy(or not...) BTW Ivan, if Rush can be in the same genre as KC, Mike Oldfield and TMV means that Dredg can be next to Gentle Giant as well, that genre is diverse enough. Once again it's a matter of taste, I personally like Dredg more.
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KeyserSoze
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Posted: December 20 2006 at 19:23 |
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Amen to that. Thanks Bryan, English isn't my native language as for you and that's the way I would say it natively. Dredg are great.
Just one question regarding this band, respectively spelling of the band's name. Do you pronounce that "g" at the end like "g" in ie. "badge" or "g" like in ie. "gift"? Or do you just leave it out in the pronounciation? Sorry, maybe it's a silly question but I would just know it right and it's a very confusing word since it's so special. Thanks.
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Bryan
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Posted: December 20 2006 at 04:06 |
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I'm not saying that you aren't allowed to not consider Dredg prog, I'm just growing more and more frustrated with how you consistently look down upon those who feel differently. I don't care if Dredg are listed on PA or not, I think they're an outstanding band and I do consider them to be a progressive rock band, but all I care about is that their music is good... I listen to tons of non-prog, it's not like I somehow feel the need to vindicate the bands I like by having them all listed on this site, and I really wish you would stop accusing me (and the rest of us) of doing so.
As for why I think Dredg are prog, my view on it is pretty much something that you'll immediately dismiss given that you're a lawyer and hard evidence is the only way to hold a debate like this for you... it's true that if you break down the individual songs on El Cielo a lot of them are pretty straightforward, but the same thing could be said of Dark Side of the Moon (an album I think is quite comparable to this one). The way that the whole thing flows and connects together, sort of gradually building in emotional intensity with each passing song until climaxing at the end gives it the feel of being one complete piece with different parts. Sure there are no mellotrons or 5 minute hammond solos, but as an album it just screams "prog!" to my ears. Feel free to further ridicule me for using a defense like that, but there's no jury here to decide that your argument is stronger than mine Ivan... I (and many others on here) feel that way about this band, and no amount of dissecting each individual segment of their material is going to change that. Sorry.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: December 19 2006 at 21:04 |
Bryan wrote:
Ivan, all I'm going to say is that I don't particularily care for how any time you disagree with somebody on whether a band could be considered prog or not, you immediately accuse them of only wanting to consider that band as such because they like them.
Until today I haven't seen any person proposing a band that he/she doesn't like Bryan, and that's not wrong is the band is Prog, but in this case I gave my opinion of their two albums considered the most Prog related SONG BY SONG and my opinion is that they are alternative at the most.
Maverick clearley stated the reason why he recommended this band:
I found out about this band not so long ago. I've all of their albums. The only album I don't like is 'Catch Without Arms' because of delay-overuse on all the songs.
I can't make up the word to describe Dredg's genre, but I think it's PROG indeed. 'El Cielo' is pure prog, I think. 'Leitmotif' sounds good, but there are some moments with ugly vocals. All in all, Dredg's music is great.
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You see Bryan, all the argument in the starting post is that the band is great, he even isn't sure if it's Prog or not: I can't make up the word to describe Dredg's genre, but I think it's PROG indeed.
I believe it's obvious I have fundaments to justify my opinion about why they were recommended initially.
There are TONS of prog bands I don't like, it's not an "honour" for me to view Dredg, Radiohead and so on listed as prog... I simply think they are, and since both are listed on the site apparently somebody out there agrees with me. I adore the band Kamelot, for instance, but by no stretch do I think that they deserve to be listed on PA (which they are, go figure).
There are lots of bands I don't like for example King Crimson and VDGG, but I won't doubt they are Prog.
Again, in the case of Dredg I made a song by song analysis, it may be wromng but it's my honest opinion and
As for why I consider Dredg prog, we went through this exact debate way back in the days of Radiohead's inclusion and I know from experience that it won't reach any viable conclusion... some of us feel that prog is taking on a new form through these bands, some of us don't feel that it has anything to do with what they consider prog, that's pretty much that.
Honestly, I doidn't knew they were here so there's nothing that cabn be done, but ART ROCK side by side with Gentle Giant?
I believe that to be at least remotely coherent they should be moved to Prog Related, we are most surely moving Jean Pascal Boffo to Prog Related and he's 1,000 more Prog than Dredg.
Iván
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heyitsthatguy
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Posted: December 19 2006 at 19:55 |
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DREDG: prog or not prog?
