Zeppelin and the Occult

Reed Lover wrote: [

a little bit of my own personal history to clear things up.

I was brought up and baptised a Catholic. I went to a Catholic Primary School (5-10 yr old) and then went to a Boy's Catholic Grammar School (11-18 yr old).
Unlike in the USA, religion, and to be more specific worship was an everyday part of normal school life. Both schools had a church attached to them and we were expected to attend every fourth Friday plus feast days etc.I am as well-read on the Bible as you could be without being a religious zealot.For the first 10 years of my life I attended church regularly (Latin mass to boot). I asked to be excluded from mass attendance when I was 12 and was nearly expelled for it!
Having read the Old & New Testaments at length and also many books on the history of Christianity and Theology in general, one has to conclude that not only is there no realistic basis to Christianity, it is a load of hogwash. The Catholic Church is so frightened of the masses realising that most of what they are lead to believe in the New Testament is not only innacurate but in many cases spurious.
Now it is correctly stated here that whatever loopy evangelists or paedophilic  priests do has no relation to God or the Worship of God.
However it does point out a glaring problem in religion and specifically Christianity.The Old & New Testaments are quite clear about how one should and should not behave.Hardly anybody follows this to the letter and the majority actually believe that you shouldn't have to! "Jesus is all-forgiving" is taken to mean that every single Christian can just about do whatever they want.
It is very ironic that if we join a Prog Forum we are expected to abide by it's rules or else we will be thrown out. Join a major religion (and all the fire and brimstone that entails) and we can pick and choose which rules to break.
"Thou shalt not Kill" - it doesnt say "thou shalt not kill too much"
As for "thou should not covet thy neighbour's wife..............."

As for " religion is a very personal thing" - yeah personal between you, 2 billion humans and an omniscient God!

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Actually you and i have very similar backgrounds.  I went to parochial school for the first 8 years of my schooling.  I attended my first state run school at age 14.  I detest the Catholic Church for the control they use, the guilt they install and the liberties they use with scripture to bend you to their will.  I am sure the Anglican and Presbyterian are similar.  I have attended studies in protestant churches as well and found they do have a lack of discipline.

But I get your point on the law and people following that.  This is from a Christian point of view Reed, no one except Christ could live the law according to the bible.  The law is almost a ruler to show how little we can achieve on our own you might say.  Christians would also argue that Christ's forgiveness is for all not just believers.

I can understand how you got to the point you did after you left that horrid institution because I did too.  I revaluated everything.  I don't often get into these discussions not out of fear of losing something or learning something it is more such a point of contention with most people that it isn't worth the effort.  I find that with those on both sides of the issue. 

I do admit that coveting is hard to stop. I like coveting!

 

Reed Lover wrote: James Lee wrote: I would have preferred less proof of gdub's widom! All I was saying is that the search for meaning and understanding is not necessarily dependent on the same reasoning tools we use to develop new technologies or mathematical principles. In general, my outlook is the same as VC/DJ's...I wouldn't call myself tolerant, or even very open-minded (in the sense that people don't deserve ridicule for believing goofy things...how many of you could keep a straight face if you found out dsomeone had a shrine to an asparagus?). However, I have been fascinated with theology and philosophy all my life- enough to waste my time and money studying it, anyway ...and I do honestly feel that I have a bit more to offer a debate on the matter than someone (for example) who has never even read the bible in its entirety, in the same way that any of us would have an edge over someone who doesn't know the difference between Pink and Pink Floyd. What really irritates me is how difficult it is to have a discussion about it. People who are embarassingly frank about sexual or bodily functions will clam up like an Amish wife when the topic comes up, and the prevailing opinion is 'oh no, talking about these things just causes trouble'...here's a thought: maybe if we weren't such pu$$ies about the subject, it wouldn't be such a social taboo to have conversations like this one. Maybe we could even learn to laugh at our own blind spots, and grow as people? ...it could happen... a little bit of my own personal history to clear things up. I was brought up and baptised a Catholic. I went to a Catholic Primary School (5-10 yr old) and then went to a Boy's Catholic Grammar School (11-18 yr old). Unlike in the USA, religion, and to be more specific worship was an everyday part of normal school life. Both schools had a church attached to them and we were expected to attend every fourth Friday plus feast days etc.I am as well-read on the Bible as you could be without being a religious zealot.For the first 10 years of my life I attended church regularly (Latin mass to boot). I asked to be excluded from mass attendance when I was 12 and was nearly expelled for it! Having read the Old & New Testaments at length and also many books on the history of Christianity and Theology in general, one has to conclude that not only is there no realistic basis to Christianity, it is a load of hogwash. The Catholic Church is so frightened of the masses realising that most of what they are lead to believe in the New Testament is not only innacurate but in many cases spurious. Now it is correctly stated here that whatever loopy evangelists or paedophilic  priests do has no relation to God or the Worship of God. However it does point out a glaring problem in religion and specifically Christianity.The Old & New Testaments are quite clear about how one should and should not behave.Hardly anybody follows this to the letter and the majority actually believe that you shouldn't have to! "Jesus is all-forgiving" is taken to mean that every single Christian can just about do whatever they want. It is very ironic that if we join a Prog Forum we are expected to abide by it's rules or else we will be thrown out. Join a major religion (and all the fire and brimstone that entails) and we can pick and choose which rules to break. "Thou shalt not Kill" - it doesnt say "thou shalt not kill too much" As for "thou should not covet thy neighbour's wife..............." As for " religion is a very personal thing" - yeah personal between you, 2 billion humans and an omniscient God!

I can't argue that there are obvious problems with religion, but you're basing your opinion around your experiences from childhood.

James Lee wrote: I would have preferred less proof of gdub's widom! All I was saying is that the search for meaning and understanding is not necessarily dependent on the same reasoning tools we use to develop new technologies or mathematical principles. In general, my outlook is the same as VC/DJ's...I wouldn't call myself tolerant, or even very open-minded (in the sense that people don't deserve ridicule for believing goofy things...how many of you could keep a straight face if you found out dsomeone had a shrine to an asparagus?). However, I have been fascinated with theology and philosophy all my life- enough to waste my time and money studying it, anyway ...and I do honestly feel that I have a bit more to offer a debate on the matter than someone (for example) who has never even read the bible in its entirety, in the same way that any of us would have an edge over someone who doesn't know the difference between Pink and Pink Floyd. What really irritates me is how difficult it is to have a discussion about it. People who are embarassingly frank about sexual or bodily functions will clam up like an Amish wife when the topic comes up, and the prevailing opinion is 'oh no, talking about these things just causes trouble'...here's a thought: maybe if we weren't such pu$$ies about the subject, it wouldn't be such a social taboo to have conversations like this one. Maybe we could even learn to laugh at our own blind spots, and grow as people? ...it could happen...

a little bit of my own personal history to clear things up.

I was brought up and baptised a Catholic. I went to a Catholic Primary School (5-10 yr old) and then went to a Boy's Catholic Grammar School (11-18 yr old).
Unlike in the USA, religion, and to be more specific worship was an everyday part of normal school life. Both schools had a church attached to them and we were expected to attend every fourth Friday plus feast days etc.I am as well-read on the Bible as you could be without being a religious zealot.For the first 10 years of my life I attended church regularly (Latin mass to boot). I asked to be excluded from mass attendance when I was 12 and was nearly expelled for it!
Having read the Old & New Testaments at length and also many books on the history of Christianity and Theology in general, one has to conclude that not only is there no realistic basis to Christianity, it is a load of hogwash. The Catholic Church is so frightened of the masses realising that most of what they are lead to believe in the New Testament is not only innacurate but in many cases spurious.
Now it is correctly stated here that whatever loopy evangelists or paedophilic  priests do has no relation to God or the Worship of God.
However it does point out a glaring problem in religion and specifically Christianity.The Old & New Testaments are quite clear about how one should and should not behave.Hardly anybody follows this to the letter and the majority actually believe that you shouldn't have to! "Jesus is all-forgiving" is taken to mean that every single Christian can just about do whatever they want.
It is very ironic that if we join a Prog Forum we are expected to abide by it's rules or else we will be thrown out. Join a major religion (and all the fire and brimstone that entails) and we can pick and choose which rules to break.
"Thou shalt not Kill" - it doesnt say "thou shalt not kill too much"
As for "thou should not covet thy neighbour's wife..............."

As for " religion is a very personal thing" - yeah personal between you, 2 billion humans and an omniscient God!

Dead Jester wrote: That's about as low as you can get to bash religion That´s just one mild example, Catholic Priests/Child Molesters anyone ?????

Doesn't matter... you're still not bashing religion... priests, Jerry Falwell.. even Jim Bakker and that scandal... thats all human nature.. nothing to do with religion other than humans trying to control other humans by using religion as a means to do it.

Religion is not people... religion is faith in something unseen and that you believe in and effects the way you live and see the world.  I'm sure Prog could have its own religion, if someone would just take the time to found the order...

Again religion is not the curse... humans who abuse it for their own agenda... thats the curse !!

If there is a creator of life... then I would think its better to be on his good side than his bad side...so I'll continue with my own beliefs, thank you!...

That's about as low as you can get to bash religion

That´s just one mild example, Catholic Priests/Child Molesters anyone ?????

Dead Jester wrote:  TV evangelist quits over sex scandal Jimmy Swaggart, America's leading television evangelist, has resigned from his ministry after it was revealed he had been consorting with a prostitute. In front of a congregation of 7,000 in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, he sobbed and confessed to "moral failure" without actually going into any detail. Watch/Listen Mr Swaggart made a tearful confession

Good job, way to post a completely irrelevant comment. That's about as low as you can get to bash religion, and of course that one event speaks for all religion.

Rob The Plant wrote: Garion81 wrote: Reed Lover wrote: Hangedman wrote: Reed Lover wrote: Hangedman wrote: Reed Lover wrote: Hangedman wrote: Just a comment, being an agnost i find it astounding that someone who is athiest to call someone who is religious an idiot or vice versa. Isnt it just as likely for a god to exist as for the universe to just exist for no reason? Both require something to be created out of nothing, which is scientifically impossible. So both require a measure of faith, which is the defining word of religion. Please when critisizing someone else's beliefs please be tolerant. And remember although i dont believe it, even Steven Hawkings big bang theory requires divine intervention, but then Hawkings doesnt believe in it himself. Who says the Universe is created out of nothing. What is nothing? Does nothing exist? Who made Stephen Hawking the authority on the Universe? God is dead. Working bottom to top now. "God" was never alive as far as I'm concerned, I'm an agnost. If you can find one person (unless your religious) whose theories are more sensible, or downright intelligent than Mr. Hawking's I will study them intensively and maybe convert into whatever it is they are preaching(including atheism, or if its simply objective then ill stay the same). My point is that even with Einstien's theories there is a point where everything begins and is created. Atheism is a form of creationism that suggests that either it was always here or that it was created by accident, both of which are statiscally impossible, just like a god existing. Holier than though atheists are just as annoying as the worst holier than though Christians. When will people just accept that people have different opinions, sometimes there is no way to prove that any are right. So any of you athiests, christians, muslims, buhddists, hindus, or anything else Give us proof or just leave people to believe in what they will. I dont think that the Pope or The Ayotollah would agree that it is a matter of opinion. Mr Hawking is NOT the leader in his field,nor does he claim to be.Theories he has helped to formulate have, by his own admission, been "proven" wrong. It seemed perfectly commonsense to me, for instance, that nothing could escape from a Black Hole. This is now believed to be not the case but as recently as 3 years ago was touted as fact.Mr Hawking has said as much himself. Believing in God is ridiculous. What was once a device to explain the change of the seasons, the falling of rain and even the failure of crops should not now be given any credence.Proving that God doesnt exist is easy. We invented him! I believe you have the right to believe what you believe,but this "let's agree to differ" attitude is a cop out. Only a complete idiot would spend at least 10 years in education and not learn anything.These people teach us to think, then tell us not to. Reed, what im trying to say is that by saying things like God is dead, is belittling people for thier beliefs, no matter how stupid it seems to people like myself to believe in god doesnt make it a universal theme. The only religious argument i ever try to make is "Let people believe what they want to" because if your an athiest for example what the heck difference does it make in the end? It makes no difference to me if i go into church for a wedding, funeral etc. I quite like singing hymns.It is all gobbledygook.But harmless? It doesnt harm me per se but it sure as hell causes hurt, injury and death for many people. And what really bugs me: We have a law against blasphemy in this country! So dont tell me it does no harm. Science books in some educational institutions in the Southern States Of USA, say that Evolution is put forward by some scientists, but it is generally accepted that the creation ideology of the bible is the correct staement of events. Do not tell me it does no harm. However. I can do nothing about this apparently.God will always "exist" because the majority want him too.     Thats the reason we keep doing it Reed!  Just to piss you off!   Just like not cutting the quotes on this note so you had to wait the whole time just to read that.   BTW did you just blaspheme a few posts ago?  I'm telling Mr. Blair on you. A hell of a  lot of quoting of quotes mate!

 

You could get lost in here! 

 

Amen brother

The old Gdub would have gotten his feet wet in this religeous debate, but the new Gdub has managed to mostly steer clear of this potentially inflammatory subject. I should get a prize or something.