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Trotsky 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 25 2004
Location: Malaysia
Status: Offline
Points: 2771
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 Posted: December 08 2005 at 12:04 |
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Wow, this thread's still alive ... to sum up ...
All of us love progressive rock
Most of us dislike mainstream rap/hip-hop intensely (some of us think
that is all there is), a small minority of us are fans.
Almost everyone who is a fan of rap/hip-hop and progressive rock can see a work-able fusion
Some (AHEM) who dislike rap/hip-hop and love prog-rock, still can
envisage the possibility, and believe it is close-minded to dismiss out
of hand something that you haven't heard, and which quite possibly does
not as yet exist.
Others who dislike rap/hip-hop and love prog-rock have dismissed the
idea immediately (usually on the grounds that they hate mainstream
rap/hip-hop ... the theory has been postulated that most of these
people aren't musicians and/or suffer from a limited imagination
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"Death to Utopia! Death to faith! Death to love! Death to hope?" thunders the 20th century. "Surrender, you pathetic dreamer.”
"No" replies the unhumbled optimist "You are only the present."
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist
Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12818
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Posted: December 08 2005 at 12:02 |
I'm currently listening to the CD and watching the DVD that comes with Will Calhoun's new album Native Lands
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000B6OH6Q/qid=1134 060816/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_9_1/026-9226558-7204446
Will Calhoun was once with Living Colour, a band at the heart of the NYC-based Black Rock Collective movement in the 80's, and released several innovative albums. The first 20 minutes of the DVD is almost a lecture, about where Calhoun has gone since leaving Living Colour demonstrating a powerful need to explore all musical territories so as to develop/progress his music. This is an excellent example of a person seeking real musical progression. Nothing is off limits including hip hop, jungle, rap - in the hands of this skilled musician all musics can be joined with rock or jazz, for something new and interesting. Thank god, musicians make these choice rather than stick in the mud fans.
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist
Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12818
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Posted: December 08 2005 at 11:49 |
 Manunkind wrote:
Dick Heath wrote:
[QUOTE=Manunkind]
The jazz band Mousetrap actually recorded a very good album based on disco rhythms.
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haven't really heard any Hassell's stuff, though.
I once got paid for a writing job in teeshirts and CDs. One was my introduction to Jon Hassell/Bluescreen: Dressing For Pleasure (on Warner Brothers), and have particularly liked this for a long time.
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Edited by Dick Heath
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Manunkind
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 2373
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Posted: December 08 2005 at 10:12 |
Dick Heath wrote:
Manunkind wrote:
The jazz band Mousetrap actually recorded a very good album based on disco rhythms.
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Major genre of nu fusion (the latest major sub genre of jazz rock fusion), has been doing this for a decade, Jon Hassell and Bluescreen had the first obvious version, but since then jazz pianist Bugge Wesseltoft has done some great albums. Nils Petter Molvaer is another major player in the genre.
Mousetrap is somewhat different from those guys - they also used some very cheesy 70s' (I think) disco rhythms in a very cool way. I don't believe Wesseltoft or Molvaer made use of this stylistic; haven't really heard any Hassell's stuff, though.
All these musicians refer/defer to Miles Davis - btw read the recent MD biography covering the last 10 years of his life, and discover how much Davis was involved in rap etc.
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"In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist
Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12818
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Posted: December 08 2005 at 10:03 |
ranger wrote:
 gO LIVE IN THE HOOD IF YOU WANT TO LISTEN TO THAT CRAP |
IYHO?
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matti meikäläin
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 10 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 220
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Posted: December 08 2005 at 07:57 |
ranger wrote:
gO LIVE IN THE HOOD IF YOU WANT TO LISTEN TO THAT CRAP |
ok
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Guests
Forum Guest Group
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Posted: December 08 2005 at 07:31 |
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matti meikäläin
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 10 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 220
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Posted: December 08 2005 at 06:43 |
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listen massive attack- mezzanine ( progressive dub or trip hop)
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist
Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12818
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Posted: December 08 2005 at 06:06 |
Manunkind wrote:
The jazz band Mousetrap actually recorded a very good album based on disco rhythms.
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Major genre of nu fusion (the latest major sub genre of jazz rock fusion), has been doing this for a decade, Jon Hassell and Bluescreen had the first obvious version, but since then jazz pianist Bugge Wesseltoft has done some great albums. Nils Petter Molvaer is another major player in the genre. All these musicians refer/defer to Miles Davis - btw read the recent MD biography covering the last 10 years of his life, and discover how much Davis was involved in rap etc.
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist
Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12818
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Posted: December 08 2005 at 06:01 |
erlenst wrote:
*sigh*. Just to make it clear - I hate rap as much as the next guy. But to rule out the possibility that hip hop ever could fuse with progressive rock in one way or another is completely ridiculous.
Why would it be better to be narrowminded and a snob than to be open to this possibility? Not quite following you on this point. Nobody is telling you that you have to like whatever the result would be. I know I won't.
If death metal vocals and prog is a possible combination, then I can't see why rap could be one also. I'm sure that somewhere, there exists actual musicians who make hip hop.
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My sentiments entirely
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Manunkind
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 2373
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Posted: December 08 2005 at 05:08 |
Jacques Loussier made Bach swing.
The jazz band Mousetrap actually recorded a very good album based on disco rhythms.
Anything is possible.
And Ivan, your remark about hip-hop at the Billboard Awards has no place here. Imagine the term 'prog', in all its vagueness, making its way into the general public and receiving its own category at the Billboard Awards. Who do you think would be nominated? I say Muse, System of a Down, and Nightwish. Now just how much would these bands tell you about prog?
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"In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun
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James Hill
Forum Groupie
Joined: June 03 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 94
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Posted: December 08 2005 at 02:49 |
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Why would anyone want to combine the worst form of popular music ever made(yes even worse than disco or dance music)with prog?I cant for the life of me Imagine liking a form of music that dosnt give a rats ass about musicianship,melody or anything else thats quality.How can you be serious?I dont think you are Man Overboard.
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symphonic james
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Rust
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 14 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1148
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Posted: December 07 2005 at 21:42 |
ivan_2068 wrote:
Rust wrote:
You all know that the idea of fusing prog and rap is just as, if not more, crazy and innovative as the idea was back in the 60's to fuse rock and classical music.
Not accurate, since before Rock was born, there were Jazz musicians blending Classical influence with their music.
I know you all also know that rock and classical music styles fused together are really good, this is an opinion I know, but no doubt that the majority of us that listen to prog, really do like atleast one symphonic prog band. I for one like several.
I like most.
Conclusion, prog and rap is exactly what music neds if it want's to progress as much as it did in the 70's.
I may admit the chance that it's possible that some weird form of Rap or Hip Hop blends with Prog' to vreate something totally different to Hip Hop or Rap, but honestly, we don't need progressive Rap,
By the way and for one more time, Progressive ROCK as a genre doesn't has any relation with Progress or evolution, it's just a name for a genre.
And I believe Rap or Hip Hop is not evolution but involutioin of music.
Just look what progressive qualities and ideas did to rock and roll, imagine what progressive thinking can do to a genre of music like rap that is more developed than rock was in the 60's when it was introduced to progressive thinking.
Rap more developed than Rock in the 60's? What about Zappa, Beach Boys, Beatles, Rollingn Stones, The Who, etc, allof them were makeing more developed music (using melody, rhythm and harmony) than Rap as a genre.
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If Prog blends withRap or Hip Hop, we'll loose both, Rap or Hip Hop (Not a great problem for me) and Prog, which will loose their unique qualities and turn into anything but Prog.
Yesterday I watched 10 minutes of the Billboard Awards, all was Rap and Hip Hop and honestly all was crap IMO.
Iván
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I wasn't talking about the mainstream btw. And I do think I was wrong about how rap progressed more than rock.
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We got to pump the stuff to make us tough
from the heart
Its astart
What we need is awareness we cant get careless
Mental self defensive fitness
Make everybody see in order to fight the powers that be
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Mercury
Forum Groupie
Joined: October 10 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 43
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Posted: December 07 2005 at 21:09 |
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If you guys are talking about rap as in with instruments and drums and
guitars and maybe a synth and the rapper actually knows how to sing and
odd time signatures and actual songwriting and all the other
suggestions posted through the 11 pages here, then we already have
it. It's something most of us like to call rock.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: December 07 2005 at 20:31 |
Rust wrote:
You all know that the idea of fusing prog and rap is just as, if not more, crazy and innovative as the idea was back in the 60's to fuse rock and classical music.
Not accurate, since before Rock was born, there were Jazz musicians blending Classical influence with their music.
I know you all also know that rock and classical music styles fused together are really good, this is an opinion I know, but no doubt that the majority of us that listen to prog, really do like atleast one symphonic prog band. I for one like several.
I like most.
Conclusion, prog and rap is exactly what music neds if it want's to progress as much as it did in the 70's.
I may admit the chance that it's possible that some weird form of Rap or Hip Hop blends with Prog' to vreate something totally different to Hip Hop or Rap, but honestly, we don't need progressive Rap,
By the way and for one more time, Progressive ROCK as a genre doesn't has any relation with Progress or evolution, it's just a name for a genre.
And I believe Rap or Hip Hop is not evolution but involutioin of music.
Just look what progressive qualities and ideas did to rock and roll, imagine what progressive thinking can do to a genre of music like rap that is more developed than rock was in the 60's when it was introduced to progressive thinking.
Rap more developed than Rock in the 60's? What about Zappa, Beach Boys, Beatles, Rollingn Stones, The Who, etc, allof them were makeing more developed music (using melody, rhythm and harmony) than Rap as a genre.
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If Prog blends withRap or Hip Hop, we'll loose both, Rap or Hip Hop (Not a great problem for me) and Prog, which will loose their unique qualities and turn into anything but Prog.
Yesterday I watched 10 minutes of the Billboard Awards, all was Rap and Hip Hop and honestly all was crap IMO.
Iván
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Rust
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 14 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1148
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Posted: December 07 2005 at 20:17 |
You all know that the idea of fusing prog and rap is just as, if not more, crazy and innovative as the idea was back in the 60's to fuse rock and classical music. I know you all also know that rock and classical music styles fused together are really good, this is an opinion I know, but no doubt that the majority of us that listen to prog, really do like atleast one symphonic prog band. I for one like several.
Conclusion, prog and rap is exactly what music needs if it want's to progress as much as it did in the 70's. Just look what progressive qualities and ideas did to rock and roll, imagine what progressive thinking can do to a genre of music like rap that is more developed than rock was in the 60's when it was introduced to progressive thinking.
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We got to pump the stuff to make us tough
from the heart
Its astart
What we need is awareness we cant get careless
Mental self defensive fitness
Make everybody see in order to fight the powers that be
|
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erlenst
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 17 2005
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 387
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Posted: December 07 2005 at 18:43 |
*sigh*. Just to make it clear - I hate rap as much as the next guy. But
to rule out the possibility that hip hop ever could fuse with
progressive rock in one way or another is completely ridiculous.
Why would it be better to be narrowminded and a snob than to be open to
this possibility? Not quite following you on this point. Nobody
is telling you that you have to like whatever the result would be. I
know I won't.
If death metal vocals and prog is a possible combination, then I can't
see why rap could be one also. I'm sure that somewhere, there exists
actual musicians who make hip hop.
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Zitro
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 11 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1321
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Posted: December 07 2005 at 18:38 |
Used from Pain of salvation (and some other songs from that band) have some rapping passages that sound very good.
Progressive rap? it may be possible. I think everything is possible after MArs Volta mixed hardcore/punk with prog rock and got lots of fans (I am not one of them, but I recognize their talents)
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Guests
Forum Guest Group
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Posted: December 07 2005 at 18:07 |
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erlenst
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 17 2005
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 387
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Posted: December 07 2005 at 08:05 |
dream_orchestra wrote:
Rap ain't prog....get a life. |
Rap as we know it isn't prog, of course. But it COULD become prog in
the same way that metal bands have become prog. Sure, I would
never listen to it because I hate the rapping style and I think sounds
ridiculous. But some people have the same disgust towards death metal.
That doesn't mean it can't be progressive.
You are extremely narrowminded and a big fat SNOB. Stop talking out of your ass !
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