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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2009 at 04:17
Hi again Marty,

Nice to hear you're from the Czech republic. I visited Prague a few years ago and I absolutely loved it. My best friend was then teaching English in Brno and married a local girl!

I'm afraid I've read quite a bit about the way so-called "gypsies" are treated in your beautiful country. Also, Robert Wyatt has a moving song about the extermination of gypsies during World War II on his (brilliant but depressing) album CUCKOOLAND. It features David Gilmour on lead guitar and Eno (highly recognisable!) on backing vocals. (If it interests you: Wyatt is one of prog's most intelligent and outspoken atheists.)

When you ask me to "choose" between Israel and the Arab states, I don't know what to answer. In recent years I've read quite a bit of Arabic, Jewish and Persian poetry, and my respect for the cultural traditions of the entire region just keeps growing. But neither Israel nor any of the other countries of the Middle East seems a desirable place to settle.

More to the point: what are your favourite Czech prog bands, and why? I'm afraid I only know the Plastic People of the Universe...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2009 at 01:27

Maybe it's the influence of fanatic leaders back in desert. There in Europe (or South America) it's calm because they live little bit with they former lives, but also under our laws and habits, right ?

Murder of Theo Van Gogh was also work of fanatics, like these bombing in Britain ? Sad thing that voices of these people are so loud. And to be honest, they present others in bad light.

And about The Wall, I think that Pink Floyd, especially Roger Waters knew it. It's little bit parody on this whole thing about message in music, remember Pink's behaviour after Comfortambly Numb.

There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless,"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 22:14
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Terrorism comes from another place.
 
Maybe living in a desert makes people go nuts.
 
Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 18:39
Here in Perú most  Arabs are Catholics (second or third generation) and incredibly, they are business partners with some jewishs, there is no problem among them, specially because both communities are full of wealthy people.
 
Terrorism comes from another place.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 12:37

Oh, sorry. When you look at it from your point of view, it sounds better than mine theory. Mostly because I have no real experience and you have. 

I heard the word, gastarbeiter, right ? Gast as a guest and arbeit like work, er is er even in English. OK, it's not clash of religions, so it is agressive minority (terrorists) of bigger minority (muslims) ? It's like gypsies in my country. This is something I have experience. I'm not racist. I hate most of them because most of them I know are behaving bad. Nor I'm racist because I know few of them and one guy, gypsi guy can be considered as one of the best boys I've ever met. Hard working, punk loving (you can't expect people to be prog loving all the time). OK, he is man. And his sister ? She was my girl for two years then we finally broke up. But this was on village. I'm from 4th biggest city here in Czech Republic.

There are problems you know, our country is considered as racist hive by some, but that's not true. Truth is  ... blah blah, I can continue, but it's off topic.


Anyway, in my country, we have 0.1% muslims. Our goverment is banning them from building mosques. They have one for ten million country. Is this right ?

And when choosing between Israel and Arabic states, what would you choose ?

Bad theme, I'm stucked and I don't want to be labelled badly just because of my not knowing of facts, so take it easily please.

There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless,"

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 04:01
Originally posted by MartyMcFly89 MartyMcFly89 wrote:

 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
 
What happens is simple, threads are as your kids, once they leave your control they take different paths and you can't control them.



Every religious related thread will bring up issues as Christianism, celibacy, bigotry, fanaticism, etc


But as Raff said, it's positive, people lately cares for few things, and having this number of responses, means people care about spiritual issues, something strange, because people tend to more superficial lately.


For example, in my days in the university, elections were important, we had active participation, the discussions in the big patio were really interesting or we went to our old cafeteria, took a coffee and talked for hours about Philosophy, Theology, etc.


Our elections sometimes took until 4 or 5 am counting votes and discussing one by one the conflictive votes, there was such a polarization between radical communists and all of us who were against this radical positions that almost 90% of the students voted.


Last month I went to ask for a copy of my diploma, and I found it full of kids playing with frisbees, the place was full of fast food restaurants, vending machines everywhere, nobody cared about anything


I went to visit the students federation from which I was Vice President (The first Democratic one after 30 years of Maoism) and the President who knew me because the old documents I signed and a photo of some of us stopping a strike not approved by the federation,


This kid told me only 5% of the students voted.and that they cared more about the spring Festival than to talk about Philosophy or Theology. The universal spirit of the university was lost


At least in this forum we keep the interest and you should be glad your thread has grown so much

Wise words indeed. I must say that even I care a lot. You know, here in old Europe there is starting to be big influence of Islam religion. Some people are getting worried, some people are joining far right organizations, some people don't mind at all. Most of them does nothing about it. 

I am trying to get info, to know about whole issue from different points of view. Not big problem in my country, muslim population forms 0.1% of all the people here, but in bigger countries, Sweden, Netherlands of France (and Germany as I heard), it's like clash between Christianity (which forms majority of population) and muslim minority.

Remember that it's just all that I've heard on internet. Your story is important. It proves something. What about this China square, Tiananmen. Article in local newspapers told story of one guy, who was doing survey amongs the people here. He asked if they know what has happened here twenty years ago. The mostly didn't knew and few of them knew, some young students. And they were scared by the question.

It must be really harsch to live under such ideals, for you, for them, for my progfather back in 1980's (even our country is considered as one of the better places, but still), he couldn't go to university because of he was wearing jeans and beard at the high school final exams.




Dear Marty, describing the current situation in European countries with sizable Muslim populations as "a clash between Christianity and Islam" is incredibly naive. There is no such clash. Neither in theory (as most of the teachings of those two religions are largely the same), nor in practice (as Christians and Muslims are not clashing for religious reasons). Here in the U.K., where I live, there are millions of Muslims, and most of them get on perfectly well with their non-Muslim neigbours. Back in Belgium, in the city where I was born, one third of the population consists of immigrants (mainly Italians, Morrocans and Turks) and life seems perfectly harmonious.

What HAS happened, of course, is that in some European countries there have been terrorist attacks by Muslim extremists. Don't forget that these attacks have shocked the "Muslim community" (if, indeed, there IS such a community) as much as the so-called native population.

As far as I can tell, in Britain and France Muslims usually come from former colonies, and it seems perfectly reasonable that they have found a home in the country which once overran the land of their fathers! In other countries, such as the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany, Turks and Morrocans were initially employed as "guest labourers", under the understanding they would eventually return to their countries of origin. But now it seems most "guest labourers" (or their descendants) are staying for good. There is a very real danger that this situation will lead to serious friction in the future. How many Europeans can cope with truly heterogeneous populations? If you look at the past, the record isn't very good. One envies the U.S.A. their idea of a "melting pot".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 03:41
Music and lyrics are a powerful medium - especially if you are in a very famous band - I mean how many have tried to unravel the meaning of  "The Wall".

WHAT A FANTASTIC PRIVILEGE TO BE ABLE TO PREACH TO SO MANY MILLIONS!!

Think about it - it isn't just the religious (yes, they do and I don't blame them) - it's all the lyric writers - they all want  us to understand and accept their point of view...

The religious, the atheist, the agnostic, the green peace-lovers/ hippies, those in love, those who have lost love, the political, those that are a little off the wall - they all preach to us, and if it's not preaching they simply want to tell us something that close to their hearts.  Why not?

But do we really care? (does it change the way we ourselves think?)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 03:32
I tolerate Christian lyrics as long as they are intelligent or well written even though I don´t agree with the message. I like bands like Saviour Machine and Believer a lot. I would even go as far as to call myself a fan.
 
I don´t know why but I am generally a bit more critical towards Christian lyrics than I am about songs praising Satan even though none of it really appeal to me. I´m an atheist. It´s hard not to love quality bands like Slayer ( well not really satanists but they had that image when they started out) and Deicide ( very blashemous lyrics ) when their music is so great though ( Well I used to be a big fan of Deicide, but only listen to the old albums now. That´s not because of the lyrical content though). There are not many Christian bands that compete with that power ( just listen to Mortification or Vengeance Rising. Very weak metal acts). Especially not in metal. It´s a matter of personal taste of course but a musicians spiritual belief almost always shine through in his/ her music.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 03:10
 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

   
What happens is simple, threads are as your kids, once they leave your control they take different paths and you can't control them.

Every religious related thread will bring up issues as Christianism, celibacy, bigotry, fanaticism, etc

But as Raff said, it's positive, people lately cares for few things, and having this number of responses, means people care about spiritual issues, something strange, because people tend to more superficial lately.

For example, in my days in the university, elections were important, we had active participation, the discussions in the big patio were really interesting or we went to our old cafeteria, took a coffee and talked for hours about Philosophy, Theology, etc.

Our elections sometimes took until 4 or 5 am counting votes and discussing one by one the conflictive votes, there was such a polarization between radical communists and all of us who were against this radical positions that almost 90% of the students voted.

Last month I went to ask for a copy of my diploma, and I found it full of kids playing with frisbees, the place was full of fast food restaurants, vending machines everywhere, nobody cared about anything

I went to visit the students federation from which I was Vice President (The first Democratic one after 30 years of Maoism) and the President who knew me because the old documents I signed and a photo of some of us stopping a strike not approved by the federation,

This kid told me only 5% of the students voted.and that they cared more about the spring Festival than to talk about Philosophy or Theology. The universal spirit of the university was lost

At least in this forum we keep the interest and you should be glad your thread has grown so much

Wise words indeed. I must say that even I care a lot. You know, here in old Europe there is starting to be big influence of Islam religion. Some people are getting worried, some people are joining far right organizations, some people don't mind at all. Most of them does nothing about it. 

I am trying to get info, to know about whole issue from different points of view. Not big problem in my country, muslim population forms 0.1% of all the people here, but in bigger countries, Sweden, Netherlands of France (and Germany as I heard), it's like clash between Christianity (which forms majority of population) and muslim minority.

Remember that it's just all that I've heard on internet. Your story is important. It proves something. What about this China square, Tiananmen. Article in local newspapers told story of one guy, who was doing survey amongs the people here. He asked if they know what has happened here twenty years ago. The mostly didn't knew and few of them knew, some young students. And they were scared by the question.

It must be really harsch to live under such ideals, for you, for them, for my progfather back in 1980's (even our country is considered as one of the better places, but still), he couldn't go to university because of he was wearing jeans and beard at the high school final exams.

There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless,"

   -Andyman1125 on Lulu







Even my
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2009 at 02:13
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

But his ? album...amazing and inspiring in almost every way.
 
Best thing he's ever done! Thumbs Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2009 at 17:00
Originally posted by kiwi kiwi wrote:


And the vision we have of the world as a youth isn't necessarily that clear -- often our thinking is reactionary - in that we are reacting to our parent's world. There is that sentiment that "I left home because my parents were so stupid. When I returned some years later, I was amazed at how much they had learned".


 
I agree with that, but if there is a moment to be a rebel, a reationary or even stupid, and, it's youth.
 
Young people are supposed to be idealists, question the status quo, protest against everything, probably later they will know it was wrong, but at least they had their moment of idealism, and believe it or not....this protests affect everybody and makes us think if what we are doing is correct
 
I remember I was almost arrested for burning a USSR flag in the door of the embassy after  they invaded Afghanistan when I was 15 or 16 (I ran as fast as I could and a a priest opened the doors of the church for the three of us who were escaping from the cops, because it was a military government and very few liked USSR, the cops didn't dare to enter to the church.).
 
Now I know that is not the way, that I shouldn't disrespect a national symbol for what the government does, but i don't regret what i did, is part of my life and my experience.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2009 at 16:37
Originally posted by Alberto Muñoz Alberto Muñoz wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by kiwi kiwi wrote:


Ivan, I don't like the inference that life is over when you are married with a family. For me my adult years are where I have found my voice.
 
Never said life uis over, what i said is that when you marry and have kids you have other priorities than fightiing against widmills.
 
You have to accept the status quo and live with it if you want to feed your family, even the most raicals in the univerity have a job from the society they despissed so much in our student's days, the most radicals who hated `private property in all it's forms, work for ONGs and have huge salaries.
 
 
Right Ivan , as latinoamerican people we have some things in common (of course the languages), and the social and economic politics always hit us in many many ways, here in México almost every 6 years.
 
And yes when we have a family to maintain your priorities changed almost radically, many people who have not family  to support or are single, have a really hard time to understand when you talk about the maintenance of a family because they have to live  that to understand us.


I guess I am lucky. I live in New Zealand - identified as the most peaceful country on earth by the Economist this week.
But wherever we live life creates the experiences we need to refine our character Smile.

I don't think that life necessarily grinds us down either. And the vision we have of the world as a youth isn't necessarily that clear -- often our thinking is reactionary - in that we are reacting to our parent's world. There is that sentiment that "I left home because my parents were so stupid. When I returned some years later, I was amazed at how much they had learned".

Music that conveys the transcendence of the human spirit inspires me

We, verily, have made music as a ladder for your souls, a means whereby they may be lifted up unto the realm on high.. (Baha'u'llah)


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2009 at 16:12
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by kiwi kiwi wrote:


Ivan, I don't like the inference that life is over when you are married with a family. For me my adult years are where I have found my voice.
 
Never said life uis over, what i said is that when you marry and have kids you have other priorities than fightiing against widmills.
 
You have to accept the status quo and live with it if you want to feed your family, even the most raicals in the univerity have a job from the society they despissed so much in our student's days, the most radicals who hated `private property in all it's forms, work for ONGs and have huge salaries.
 
 
Right Ivan , as latinoamerican people we have some things in common (of course the languages), and the social and economic politics always hit us in many many ways, here in México almost every 6 years.
 
And yes when we have a family to maintain your priorities changed almost radically, many people who have not family  to support or are single, have a really hard time to understand when you talk about the maintenance of a family because they have to live  that to understand us.


Edited by Alberto Muñoz - June 04 2009 at 16:13




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2009 at 16:01
Originally posted by kiwi kiwi wrote:


Ivan, I don't like the inference that life is over when you are married with a family. For me my adult years are where I have found my voice.
 
Never said life uis over, what i said is that when you marry and have kids you have other priorities than fightiing against windmills.
 
You have to accept the status quo and live with it if you want to feed your family, even the most raicals in the university have a job from the society they despised so much in our student's days, the most radicals who hated  private property in all it's forms, work for ONGs and have huge salaries.
 
I thought I was going to be a lawyer to fight for justice, but with the age you discover justice is more elastic than you ever imagined.
 
Of course i refuse to take drug traffic, rape or pedophilia ceses, but I take cases where my client is not as perfect as he could be.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 04 2009 at 16:32
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2009 at 13:58
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

When I see this kids in the university, I wish I could slap them in the face and tell them to dare be young, that this is the moment of their lives to be rebels against the system, to fight for what they believe is right, because when they have a wife/husband and kids, will sadly be absorbed by the system.
 
Doesn't matter in what they believe as long as they believe in something!!!!
 
But no, they don't have deep beliefs, they are happy with the cafeteria with plasma and cheap burgers plus of course their Ipod that they use even to sleep.
 
This kids are loosing an important part of their lifes.
 
Iván


In some ways this takes us back to the origins of this discussion. There is no ideological vacuum. What we are witnessing is the triumph of materialism and consumerism. Hopefully this will not last long. Humanity needs spiritual aspirations. Commercial music is often the anthem of consumerism. Prog includes a rich vein of protest or critique but more importantly for me, spiritual aspiration.

Ivan, I don't like the inference that life is over when you are married with a family. For me my adult years are where I have found my voice.

We, verily, have made music as a ladder for your souls, a means whereby they may be lifted up unto the realm on high.. (Baha'u'llah)


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2009 at 13:56
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

When I see this kids in the university, I wish I could slap them in the face and tell them to dare be young, that this is the moment of their lives to be rebels against the system, to fight for what they believe is right, because when they have a wife/husband and kids, will sadly be absorbed by the system.
 
Doesn't matter in what they believe as long as they believe in something!!!!
 
But no, they don't have deep beliefs, they are happy with the cafeteria with plasma and cheap burgers plus of course their Ipod that they use even to sleep.
 
This kids are loosing an important part of their lifes.
 
Iván


Ivan, I can see where you are coming from, and I feel the same way in my darker moments, especially when contemplating the amount of people who watch rubbish soaps, American Idol (et al), or read pulp celebrity mags.

However, I hope it will cheer you up a bit on this subject when I tell you that at my trade union's annual conference a couple of weeks ago, I was very struck by the number of new, and, importantly, YOUNG delegates present, all of whom were passionate about moving the concept of trade unionism and progressive politics forward in the future.

In addition, the driving forces behind the campaign against the Iraq War and other issues such as persecution of workers in Columbia are very much led by the younger generation of political activists.

I don't always agree with their personal politics, but I do see a lot of hope for the future. The younger activists I know are passionate, literate, intelligent, and care. We'll be alright.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2009 at 13:49

The evidence is all around you. Surely you can see it. There are some who will be the nonconformists and listen to odd music, but it is an American Idol world. You can't deny that based on it's popularity. And who ends up winning these competitions? The really creative types or the ones that comply with the force fed genres (pop/rap/country)?
[/QUOTE]

We need to remember that rap can be progressive too. A artist has recently transcended the formula of rapping in videos illustrated by bling, scantily clad females and expensive cars by rapping about a boat - "look at my motherf**king boat" surely this is progress Wink

We, verily, have made music as a ladder for your souls, a means whereby they may be lifted up unto the realm on high.. (Baha'u'llah)


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2009 at 13:31
When I see this kids in the university, I wish I could slap them in the face and tell them to dare be young, that this is the moment of their lives to be rebels against the system, to fight for what they believe is right, because when they have a wife/husband and kids, will sadly be absorbed by the system.
 
Doesn't matter in what they believe as long as they believe in something!!!!
 
But no, they don't have deep beliefs, they are happy with the cafeteria with plasma and cheap burgers plus of course their Ipod that they use even to sleep.
 
This kids are loosing an important part of their lifes.
 
Iván
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2009 at 07:05
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Everything is designed to create a comformist generation of kids not ready to challenge the status quo.


Your fascinating description of today's bland campus life equally applies to the U.K., I think. All the media here are dominated by uninspiring (or totally manufactured) copycat artists and bands. It can't be a coincidence that England is one of the worst countries for prog right now. People just don't have the GUTS.

I think it's a reflection of the power that record companies and mainstream media have over people. It's not about having guts, IMO, its about being force fed the same old dumbed down crap. If Prog was promoted, you'd see more artists emerge in this genre. As of now, you have to hope the youth stumble onto it and find it amazing. 


Guys, Ivan's quote describes the majority of today's youth (present company excepted, of courseWink) to a T - and not just in relation to their musical taste. Sorry for being a bit too blunt, but I don't really believe in the concept of 'force feeding' people... We were born with brains, and we do have a choice. No one is forced to spend hours watching TV reality shows, or listening to crap music. It's just that for people (young and otherwise) it is often easier and more convenient to choose the path of least resistance.

The evidence is all around you. Surely you can see it. There are some who will be the nonconformists and listen to odd music, but it is an American Idol world. You can't deny that based on it's popularity. And who ends up winning these competitions? The really creative types or the ones that comply with the force fed genres (pop/rap/country)?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2009 at 06:59
Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Everything is designed to create a comformist generation of kids not ready to challenge the status quo.


Your fascinating description of today's bland campus life equally applies to the U.K., I think. All the media here are dominated by uninspiring (or totally manufactured) copycat artists and bands. It can't be a coincidence that England is one of the worst countries for prog right now. People just don't have the GUTS.

I think it's a reflection of the power that record companies and mainstream media have over people. It's not about having guts, IMO, its about being force fed the same old dumbed down crap. If Prog was promoted, you'd see more artists emerge in this genre. As of now, you have to hope the youth stumble onto it and find it amazing. 


Guys, Ivan's quote describes the majority of today's youth (present company excepted, of courseWink) to a T - and not just in relation to their musical taste. Sorry for being a bit too blunt, but I don't really believe in the concept of 'force feeding' people... We were born with brains, and we do have a choice. No one is forced to spend hours watching TV reality shows, or listening to crap music. It's just that for people (young and otherwise) it is often easier and more convenient to choose the path of least resistance.
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