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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Points: 5154 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2015 at 03:07
Originally posted by King Only King Only wrote:

On many modern productions you are not hearing the actual sounds of the drum kit. You are hearing samples that are placed there by the studio engineer, using digital audio software (for example Pro Tools). All the original drum sounds are removed and replaced with 'perfect' samples to create 'consistency'. The engineer will often also 'correct' slight timing errors. Sometimes these things are done without the knowledge of the drummer or the band.

I sometimes work in recording studios and I have seen engineers do this, sometimes they have replaced EVERY SINGLE SOUND, i.e absolutely none of the original recording of the drums were used in the finished recording.

If you want technical details, check the link below from Sound On Sound magazine (a magazine for professional sound engineers):

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar11/articles/cutting-edge-drums.htm

A very interesting article, thanks for posting it, and eye-opening for those frequent discussions regarding the soul-less, sterile feel of many modern albums. Modern music release is much like professional photography, everything is photoshopped to some extent.



[/QUOTE]

Edited by Gerinski - March 14 2015 at 11:41
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Points: 11420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2015 at 01:50
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

 
Wink
 
In general, all of these have some ability to time things and improve the music ... but the music we remember is less metronomically (wow ... a new word?) designed than things are these days ... and both you and I (and others) think that the stuff that was less centered on the beat to help create a moment in time with the music, was more important than a lot of things today, where kids are being given "lyrics" to make believe that something is alive and true ... and when you are "told" that this or that is or is not ... I don't think that one can develop the ability or facility to identify different things in music as we have.
 
The history of music has NEVER been stuck on 4/4 as it is today. The real fact of the matter is that the "beat" is the simplest thing to teach, which is one of the things that most academics love to throw at folks like us, because half the music is kindergarten style and design, that is nothing new that has not been done before. But too many of these bands are selling too well to be ignored and basically the academic side of things is having a hard time in holding on to a music definition that has merit and history ... whereas the "popular music" comes and goes as the men talk of michelangelo or smoke another stoogie!
 
All in all, in my book, I can not find, or have heard a single drummer in any band in the last 20 years that can give Mani Neumeier, Pierre Moerlin, Moonie, or Bonzo a run for their money ... and you already know how much music I listen to and enjoy. And we haven't even started talking about how many African drummers you have heard or these folks have discussed (-- none! --) or in my case Brazilian folks that play and drum in Brazil during the Carnival ... folks that make drumming look and sound stupid for its insane quality!
 
I do not dislike the Mike, or the such or the Porcupine guy or the Metallica guy ... but those folks are not "drummers" ... they are time keepers and as such they are not adding to the music itself as much as ... as an instrument in an orchestra would be adding to the whole piece ... on top of the fact that we do not give rock music the credit for it being above and beyond the concept of "music" ... and give it a proper birthing right. But you listen to the variations and the desire to be literate and detailed about your observation ... and on top of it we discuss 21st Century b*****d as a "progressive" something ... and no one is listening to the lyrics and seeing the sheer attack on loudness ... and noise ... that are meaningless ... or worse ... just another media hype that you believe in and follow dutifully! That's the schizoid part ... we like something and yet we have no idea what it is ... and we glorify it for the wrong thing, and too much metal? ... yeah ... blind faith in meangless words for folks that do not know what they mean? ... isn't that a little scary to see those people in power and controlling the rest of us, up to and including our tastes in music?
 
But yes ... there are some very good folks today ... but I doubt they could ever play in "You" or "ITCOTCK" or "Endless Enigma" .... (yeah ... don't tell me lies ... check out those lyrics again!) ... an dmany other pieces ... it was NOT about the drumming and this what we loved about it ... it was about the ALL of it. But I'm not sure that a lot of music today is about anything except the Hollywood style ... make believe ... complete with cardboard pink and blue sets ... and yeah baby ... you're gonna be a star!  And you know that's not about the music anymore! It's definitly something else ... and the social media blitz is your daddy and mommy!


By your own Olympian level standards of abstruse and solipsistic prose, this is actually almost entirely comprehensible and dare I say it, perceptive. Thumbs Up
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Points: 11420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2015 at 01:34
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

I've said it over and over and over again: Half the bloody music IS the noise!!
I really don't get the sterile latex gloves approach - creating music in a vacuum. Just like human beings need bacteria and filth to help our immune systems fight the world around it - the music we listen to needs the same sort of things albeit in an entirely different manner. So I'll repeat myself: Don't whatever you do bath your music too often, or you'll most likely wash away all of those germs that are good for it - and us for that matterTongue


Perceptive post certainly (for a Danish git) Clap
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Points: 7418 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2015 at 00:03
Many prog drummers (Bruford, Collins) played on drum kits that were so small as to be considered "tiny" by today's standards.  This was probably part economics, part logistics, and perhaps intentional.  Collin's drum kit onstage demonstrates this.

I consider Broof the best drummer in the genre, period.  His work with Yes and on LTIA was just remarkable.  Many other drummers like Palmer etc. assembled massive kits with all sorts of cymbals, but they generated a lot of midrange that interfered with the instrumentation.   Collins was also tremendous.
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Points: 115 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2015 at 16:28
The only thing I don't like about this thread is that so many of the posts are qualified with "I'm old and have old tastes, but..." You ARE right. Young people step into the world believing the first thing they wait in a long line to buy is the best thing ever; stuff created especially for the most evolved, up to date people. I'm on the young side for this site, and knew that music sucked in the late 90's/early 2000's when I was a teenager. I knew that, and went to find better. You guys who were kids in the early and mid 70's thought your music was the best...and it was. It had to happen for someone. 
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Points: 4812 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2015 at 14:37
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Neal was and still is a very tight drummer, especially in the 80s and on. Bruford is very certainly not, at least not on Yes and KC albums.

Bullsht! That's just a bunch of poppycock.

Edited by Rednight - March 12 2015 at 14:40
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Points: 11 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2015 at 10:30
Wow...I actually read through this entire thread...a feat in itself! Not once did I see the hallowed name of Terry Bozzio. I have always loved the element that he brought to the UK "Danger Money" album. Much in the same way Billy Cobham works his magic, Terry adds a real human element to the feel of the songs and show real discipline.
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Points: 554 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2015 at 10:17
Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

Why does the snare now make exactly the same noise every time it is struck? Why do the toms cut through everything with the urgency of a tribal warlord? Why does the kick drum in any rock band now induce a headache in me?

A genuine question: is it the players or the production? And, does anybody else agree with me?

On many modern productions you are not hearing the actual sounds of the drum kit. You are hearing samples that are placed there by the studio engineer, using digital audio software (for example Pro Tools). All the original drum sounds are removed and replaced with 'perfect' samples to create 'consistency'. The engineer will often also 'correct' slight timing errors. Sometimes these things are done without the knowledge of the drummer or the band.

I sometimes work in recording studios and I have seen engineers do this, sometimes they have replaced EVERY SINGLE SOUND, i.e absolutely none of the original recording of the drums were used in the finished recording.

If you want technical details, check the link below from Sound On Sound magazine (a magazine for professional sound engineers):

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar11/articles/cutting-edge-drums.htm





Edited by King Only - March 12 2015 at 10:18
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Points: 4287 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2015 at 09:41
LOL, couldent remember my reply, then saw it was 2 years old D:)  

Edited by tamijo - March 12 2015 at 09:41
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Points: 887 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 11 2015 at 00:40
Chris Cutler was very impressive when Henry Cow tended to play in a more rock style.
It seemed to be a type of one-off playing.  I regret he didn't do more of that in his career.
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Points: 33 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2015 at 16:38
Franz Di Cioccio of PFM is one of my favorite drummers.

He always played super clean and precise, but maintained a certain raw instinctual playing that makes listening to him exciting every time. He even survived the electronic years as a session man and composer. To my ear he has always sounded funk/jazz/fusion.

I found a radio interview with him on Youtube where he was talking about the time when Led Zeppelin asked him to play on their reunion concerts. He said he reclined because he didn't want to get on tour again, so they eventually called Jason Bonam! Song to have an idea: Trama Le Trame.
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Points: 23104 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2012 at 14:17
I've said it over and over and over again: Half the bloody music IS the noise!!
I really don't get the sterile latex gloves approach - creating music in a vacuum. Just like human beings need bacteria and filth to help our immune systems fight the world around it - the music we listen to needs the same sort of things albeit in an entirely different manner. So I'll repeat myself: Don't whatever you do bath your music too often, or you'll most likely wash away all of those germs that are good for it - and us for that matterTongue
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

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Points: 4287 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2012 at 13:44
Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

A genuine question: is it the players or the production? And, does anybody else agree with me?
Ya got the same impression
Way too often these days, and not only with the drums, everything is sharp, clear, clinical, perfect in a wrong way. I love a load of new music, but soundwise i prefer the more caotic sound you get on older recordings.   
 
And even if Grace From, was recorded semi "live" in the studio, still very sharp and clinical.


Edited by tamijo - March 14 2012 at 13:51
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Points: 18146 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 14 2012 at 12:56
Originally posted by Slaughternalia Slaughternalia wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I'm really old
 
You just hope that when you get my age, you can still enjoy music as much and as deeply ... because the secret is already out that the majority don't!
 
But the humor was really good ... and even I enjoyed it.
 
But you guys really need a mirror to look at!  Shocked   Shocked   Shocked   Sleepy
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Points: 901 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2012 at 17:45
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I'm really old
I'm so mad that you enjoy a certain combination of noises that I don't
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Points: 10841 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2012 at 14:26
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

 
Ok ... you asked for it!
 
In general, all of these have some ability to time things and improve the things... and both you and I (and others) think that the stuff was a lot of things, where kids believe that something is alive and true ... and when you are "told" that this or that is or is not ... to identify different things in music as we have.
 
The history of music has NEVER been  ... smoke another stoogie!
 
All in all, in my book, I can not find, or have heard a single drummer in any band in the last 20 years that can give money ... and you already know how much music ... folks that make drumming look and sound stupid for its insane quality!
 
I do not dislike  ... but those folks are not an instrument in an orchestra ... on top of the fact that we do not give the credit for it being above and beyond the concept of  ... and give it a proper birthing right. But you listen to the  observation ... and on top of it we discuss 21st Century something ... and no one is listening to worse ... just another media hype that you believe in and follow dutifully! That's the schizoid something and yet we have no idea what it is ... and we glorify it for too much blind faith in meangless words for folks that do not know what they see those people in power and controlling the rest of us, up to and including our tastes in music?
 
But yes ... there are some very good folks today ... but I doubt they could ever play .... (yeah ... don't tell me lies ...) ... it was NOT about ... it was about the ALL of it. But I'm not sure about anything except the Hollywood style complete with cardboard pink and blue sets ... and yeah baby ... you're gonna be a star!  And you know that's not about ... and the social media blitz is your daddy and mommy!


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Points: 18146 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2012 at 13:33
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Is '70's prog drumming an actual style?
 
Ok ... you asked for it!
 
Wink
 
In general, all of these have some ability to time things and improve the music ... but the music we remember is less metronomically (wow ... a new word?) designed than things are these days ... and both you and I (and others) think that the stuff that was less centered on the beat to help create a moment in time with the music, was more important than a lot of things today, where kids are being given "lyrics" to make believe that something is alive and true ... and when you are "told" that this or that is or is not ... I don't think that one can develop the ability or facility to identify different things in music as we have.
 
The history of music has NEVER been stuck on 4/4 as it is today. The real fact of the matter is that the "beat" is the simplest thing to teach, which is one of the things that most academics love to throw at folks like us, because half the music is kindergarten style and design, that is nothing new that has not been done before. But too many of these bands are selling too well to be ignored and basically the academic side of things is having a hard time in holding on to a music definition that has merit and history ... whereas the "popular music" comes and goes as the men talk of michelangelo or smoke another stoogie!
 
All in all, in my book, I can not find, or have heard a single drummer in any band in the last 20 years that can give Mani Neumeier, Pierre Moerlin, Moonie, or Bonzo a run for their money ... and you already know how much music I listen to and enjoy. And we haven't even started talking about how many African drummers you have heard or these folks have discussed (-- none! --) or in my case Brazilian folks that play and drum in Brazil during the Carnival ... folks that make drumming look and sound stupid for its insane quality!
 
I do not dislike the Mike, or the such or the Porcupine guy or the Metallica guy ... but those folks are not "drummers" ... they are time keepers and as such they are not adding to the music itself as much as ... as an instrument in an orchestra would be adding to the whole piece ... on top of the fact that we do not give rock music the credit for it being above and beyond the concept of "music" ... and give it a proper birthing right. But you listen to the variations and the desire to be literate and detailed about your observation ... and on top of it we discuss 21st Century b*****d as a "progressive" something ... and no one is listening to the lyrics and seeing the sheer attack on loudness ... and noise ... that are meaningless ... or worse ... just another media hype that you believe in and follow dutifully! That's the schizoid part ... we like something and yet we have no idea what it is ... and we glorify it for the wrong thing, and too much metal? ... yeah ... blind faith in meangless words for folks that do not know what they mean? ... isn't that a little scary to see those people in power and controlling the rest of us, up to and including our tastes in music?
 
But yes ... there are some very good folks today ... but I doubt they could ever play in "You" or "ITCOTCK" or "Endless Enigma" .... (yeah ... don't tell me lies ... check out those lyrics again!) ... an dmany other pieces ... it was NOT about the drumming and this what we loved about it ... it was about the ALL of it. But I'm not sure that a lot of music today is about anything except the Hollywood style ... make believe ... complete with cardboard pink and blue sets ... and yeah baby ... you're gonna be a star!  And you know that's not about the music anymore! It's definitly something else ... and the social media blitz is your daddy and mommy!


Edited by moshkito - March 13 2012 at 14:08
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Points: 10970 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 15:27
Originally posted by paganinio paganinio wrote:

70s Prog Drumming to Modern Ears

The drum department on Moving Pictures and 2112 are considered some of the best drumming in rock but are they still as good, by today's standards? I fail to notice anything spectacular. Have newer bands learnt all of Neil Peart's '70s tricks already?

However, I find the drumming for King Crimson (Red) and Genesis (England) to be more unique sounding and intriguing than the two albums mentioned above. I can hear hints of Neil Peart in a lot of modern rock albums, but haven't found King Crimson and Genesis's drumming styles replicated by newer bands. So if people were trying to learn from 70s prog, why haven't they learnt from Crimson and Genesis?

On a related note, legendary 70s guitarists such as Robert Fripp, Steve Howe and Ritchie Blackmore, are these people still among the best by today's standards? If the bar has been raised for drumming, then it should be for other instruments as well.

Discuss or guide me to a thread that addresses the same topic.
 
I think the reason why so many people enjoy the tricks of Neil Peart is popularity. It seems that not very many people give a thing about Giles, Bruford, or Collins. I think popularity depends on the band's style. Genesis and KC were classical-and-jazz-oriented and Rush are more along the lines of hard rock. So, music listeners are likely to listen to Rush more than just about anything else from the prog-rock catalog because of the popularity, the relative number of people who listen to hard stuff than soft stuff.
 
BTW, I agree with you in the second paragraph; the styles of Giles, Bruford, and Collins are much more ENTERTAINING than those of Peart, which is why I'm not a fan of Peart's drumming at all.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - March 09 2012 at 15:28
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Points: 29590 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 14:30
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Is '70's prog drumming an actual style?
 
I think it was more jazz influenced than today. Aside from the sound, the way drummers played just looked very different if you look at the old footage especially say Beat Club circa 1971. The drummers were hunched over their kits a lot more and there was more emphasis on 'feel'.
What changed drumming to my ears was the use of twin bass drums. Carl Palmer in 1973 and Carl Palmer in 1983 could have been completely different people (and probably wereTongue)
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2012 at 11:44
Is '70's prog drumming an actual style?
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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