Throwaway Download Culture |
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Qboyy007
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 21 2009 Location: SoCal Status: Offline Points: 186 |
Posted: October 01 2009 at 15:25 | |||||
Yea, this brings up another question to ponder. Is borrowing a CD from a friend or family member also considered stealing? Its essentially the same thing as using a fileshare. Hell, one could argue that even youtubing music is the same as filesharing.
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J-Man
Prog Reviewer Joined: August 07 2008 Location: Philadelphia,PA Status: Offline Points: 7826 |
Posted: October 01 2009 at 15:15 | |||||
Wow, I can't believe I've never saw this debate. My thoughts on downloading are actually NOT negative.
I don't fileshare online much, but I don't see much of a problem with it anyway, being that you don't abuse it. Whenever I do burn a disc from a friend, if I like the album I almost always buy it. I don't use it as much more than a sampler. When I get an album from the library, I do burn myself a copy, but if I like it, I buy it and if I don't like it, I don't buy it. I only use stuff like this for sampling reasons, or for out-of-print albums. With that said, I only support it when it's not abused. There are so many people that will download everything and never buy it whether they like it or not. I have a problem with that. I don't have a problem ith people downloading an album and then buying it if they like it afterwards. Just my two cents. -Jeff |
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Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: October 01 2009 at 14:49 | |||||
That's all true. But you personally have to make a choice whether this is an important issue and distracts you from enjoying the art, or whether you can simply ignore these distractions. I choose the latter. |
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sealchan
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 12 2009 Status: Offline Points: 179 |
Posted: October 01 2009 at 14:13 | |||||
...I skipped the middle pages on this thread...
I think that with the advent of music delivered digitally we will want to embrace that and solve the problems that this brings (particularly piracy). Anything that reduces physical resource consumption and material waste is probably a good thing, even a necessary thing.
Music came without art work for centuries so certainly it can be appreciated without it. But I also think that there is no reason to abandon it, only good reasons for cultivating it. As our media playing technology develops there should be room made for re-introducing the artwork and other types of information (song lyrics, musician and studio credits, etc) into the purchased song or album. Windows Media Player, as one of the commonly used programs to play digital music, needs to make improvements in facilitating this aspect. But an industry standard may need to be developed in order for Microsoft to put effort into this. In fact, with the transition of music to a digital format this should open up the range of visual art created for music to such things as simple animation and/or song queued galleries, etc. Again the players out there with any color graphics capability will need a standard set for doing this...perhaps, a knockdown or something derived from the DVD format which has its video and audio components.
Another development that I see as necessary in the various digital music players is that although randomization is valuable, there needs to be a way to serially link songs that are separate files but are meant to be heard one after another. That way we can listen to the "Abbey Road medley" properly and still have this come up as a "surprise" when we set our player to randomize songs. Again this would require a new industry standard for the digital music file. This feature might also help encourage artists to continue to compose music in collections (albums) rather than just single songs.
Probably there are already those out there advocating, developing and otherwise working on these new standards. Anyone hear know anything about this?
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Qboyy007
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 21 2009 Location: SoCal Status: Offline Points: 186 |
Posted: October 01 2009 at 14:11 | |||||
I agree with you somewhat but I think that with today's technology, words and rumors spread like wild fire. Creating internet hype is absurdly easy, thus, it's much easier for a band in today's world to sell albums and make a profit. Cost of Production is always an issue, its just one that doesn't deserve as much attention as it used too, especially when you factor in the idea that some artists don't even use studio staffs, as availability to new technologies as increased, I mean Devendra Banhardt recorded his album in a damn log cabin.
Edited by Qboyy007 - October 01 2009 at 14:16 |
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questionsneverknown
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 22 2009 Location: Ultima Thule Status: Offline Points: 602 |
Posted: October 01 2009 at 14:03 | |||||
[/QUOTE]
There is a line missing from your conceptual graph and that is the cost of production (i.e. recording, manufacture, distribution, promotion, feeding the band, paying the studio staff, buying equipment) - simply throwing mp3s at the internet will not magically create interest in an artist, all you think you are finding by "internet word of mouth" is artificially created by street teams and marketing specialists, all of whom take a cut of the bottom-line - all these people put a lot of effort into this to make it look like it blossomed spontaneously. [/QUOTE]
Exactly. Well put.
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:58 | |||||
There is a line missing from your conceptual graph and that is the cost of production (i.e. recording, manufacture, distribution, promotion, feeding the band, paying the studio staff, buying equipment) - simply throwing mp3s at the internet will not magically create interest in an artist, all you think you are finding by "internet word of mouth" is artificially created by street teams and marketing specialists, all of whom take a cut of the bottom-line - all these people put a lot of effort into this to make it look like it blossomed spontaneously.
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questionsneverknown
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 22 2009 Location: Ultima Thule Status: Offline Points: 602 |
Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:56 | |||||
And, now slightly off topic (but not really): If anyone is interested, here's a link to another discussion by David Thomas about how the band Pere Ubu recently came up with their "corporate motto": ars longa, spectatores fugaces, or roughly, art is forever, audiences are temporary. This flies in the face of that other dimension of which downloadable culture is only a facet, the sentiment that the audience is more important than the artist, and that the artist is there only to serve the audience. See American or Pop Idol. See Time magazine putting a mirror on the cover for Person of the Year. If you read the last paragraph from this webpage you'll see why I strongly believe Thomas and Pere Ubu should be seriously considered for a place on this site.
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Kim?
Forum Groupie Joined: August 09 2007 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 84 |
Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:51 | |||||
I don't think it's exactly the same. I'm walking on thin ice (of a new day) here, I don't know how to explain it. In some other artforms, the nuances and layers are more easily available than in music. I think you have percieved the painting quite fully if you've been to a gallery, whereas you haven't with a piece of music you've heard on the radio. To fully understand a song in its fullest potential, you need, (as opposed to for example a painting,)to endeepen yourself in it (plus the rest of the album, in some cases). Maybe?
In my opinion, this is not any good if it does not give me the whole album. I want the overall feel of an album. And also, what is the difference between me downloading an album, and then buying it, and me listening to some tracks on myspace the buying it, or the opposite. I've got the impression that the fact that it is illegal is just a dormant law, at least here in Norway. And as a way of boycotting the download culture, I think there is no point in doing that. It has come to stay, whether you like it or not. I just use it for what it's worth. It's all about enjoying art in the way that you like best. And, as Steve Hillage said, if the downloading make the labels collapse, in the long term it will cause the artists to establish new ways of communication and a more serious and intimate relationship with the people who listen to their music (through monitors, haha). There will always be a way. |
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questionsneverknown
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 22 2009 Location: Ultima Thule Status: Offline Points: 602 |
Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:47 | |||||
Some of the most intelligent discussions that I've seen, from an artist's perspective, about the effect of MP3s and downloading on music has been from David Thomas of Pere Ubu. He's been going on about this for the past few years. Check out http://www.hearpen.com/index.html for some recent points (more on ubuprojex). Here are some quotations from the page: "What We Are: hearpen.com exists to sell soul. It's not merchandise. It's not content. It's called music." "How We Got To Where We Are Download audio has constricted the marketplace. We must find our proper niche. That niche will be the place where we can control our output and offer it on terms that we can live with. It is not possible to enter into a commercial contract without negotiating download rights. It is intensely frustrating to hear sound that we've spent months meticulously constructing being reduced to a dog's dinner with lousy encoding ratios. If it's going to be out there we want it reproduced in such a way as to adequately convey the meaning of the sound. So we'll do it ourselves." |
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Qboyy007
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 21 2009 Location: SoCal Status: Offline Points: 186 |
Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:41 | |||||
Try and imagine CD sales and downloading in the form of a graph. The two are linked in the sense that as Downloading (Legal or Illegal ) increases you'll also see CD sales rise, they are inherently linked. The more people that know about the band the better, and in today's technological age the best way to do that is the one-two punch of "Internet word of mouth" and bootlegging.
Edited by Qboyy007 - October 01 2009 at 13:51 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:33 | |||||
But that is a close-loop feedback system that is self-sustaining - without CD sales the band would not be popular enough to attract large audiences and sponsorship deals.
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:27 | |||||
I know this is slightly off-topic, but it is related to some degree. The point I was making about reproductions of art not being the same as the real thing was about the limitations of the CYMK printing process that cannot capture the full colour spectrum of real life. This is also true of RGB monitors that also cannot replicate the full colour spectrum of real life. With a tube of Ultramarine Blue and a tube of Titanium White pigment paint I can in a single brush-stroke create an infinite blend of shades from one colour to the next - I cannot replicate that digitally - the RGB and CYMK colour systems will render that as 255 shades of blue and 1 of white. In fact the two systems even cannot replicate each others colours, it is impossible to print RED, BLUE and GREEN as you see them on the screen using a colour printer because those colours are out of gamut of the CYMK system. In this respect alone there is a difference between a printed album cover and/or CD booklet and a JPEG image (regardless of image resolution or compression ration - which incidentally produce highly visible artifacts even at low levels of compression)
So in the visual art analogy the medium is important, and this is why (for me) the medium is important in aural art - though the differences between digital and analogue are less apparent and practically impossible to quantify, they do exist. (However the differneces between recorded and real life are even greater )
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Qboyy007
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 21 2009 Location: SoCal Status: Offline Points: 186 |
Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:15 | |||||
Well look at this way. If there are any artists who don't need anymore money from CD sales its ones that are mainstream. I mean, the bigger an artists or band is the less they depend on CD sales. The biggest bands aren't rich from how much their album sells, they get money from touring or sponsors. As popularity rises, CD sales are really only useful in determining how popular a band or album is. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:05 | |||||
That's an interesting observation that has been overlooked a little because the sequence of LP, compact cassette, CD haven't been a major format changes in quite the way 78 to LP was (after all an album is so called because originally it was an album of several individual 78s, like you would have an album of photographs) - in effect mp3's have gone back to the old format of wax-cylinders with only one song per package (even 78s had two sides) and the concept of "an album" is now purely abstract with some bands now proposing to digitally release a track a month rather than whole albums.
It could be that MP3s become become transitory, like text messages and emails, something people will hear once and save/delete - singles have always been like that to some degree - one hit wonders and only as good as your last hit syndrome, once the physical nature has been removed what is left of a single song other than occupying space on your iPod?
At last, someone who (like me) doesn't see this as some wonderful Utopia.
And where will this lead if not to a reduction of everyone to the same mediocre level of blandness, where everyone is "a bloody amateur" and the unique haecceity of any single artist is lost in the miasma? ... (of course good amateurs are always better than bad professionals, but in this vision of the future how can we tell what is good and what is bad?) ...
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The Sleepwalker
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 03 2009 Location: The Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 15141 |
Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:04 | |||||
You might be right, but most kids that only listen mainstream don't buy CD's... In fact, only very few do. Many people also don't feel the need to spend money on an album, if they can also download it, whether it's for not caring about the artwork, or not having much money to spend. |
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: October 01 2009 at 13:03 | |||||
^ nice story, but today you can easily sample music legally ... you don't have to have unlimited access to full albums in order to find new music. I can't understand people who claim that they need to listen several times to an album before being able to decide whether to buy it or not. Hello? If the album is good enough to get you to listen to it several times, you should be decent enough to pay for it.
When I want to check out an album, I usually go to a download store that has it and listen to the 30 sec samples. At Amazon MP3 you can listen to all of them consecutively, which in essence gives you a quick overview over the whole album. If I like what I hear, I buy/download the album or put it on my watchlist. |
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Qboyy007
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 21 2009 Location: SoCal Status: Offline Points: 186 |
Posted: October 01 2009 at 12:56 | |||||
Many of you bring up a lot of points, and for some genres I agree that bootlegging and downloading hurts ( Think Jazz or Classical, as they aren't the most popular of genres ). I still think that overrall illegal downloading benefits music. Let me make an example.
You have this kid, lets name him Bob. Bob is say 15 or 16, and listens to all the mainstream junk. He buys all his favorite bands CDsOne day Bob hears Tool on the radio, and he instantly becomes infatuated with the band. A couple weeks after buying 10,000 Days Bob's ears are worn out. He yearns for something more, but with a limited selection of only four Tool albums, he doesn't have many options. So, Bob hops on his computer and begins his search for similar artists. It was at this point that . He hears of a program on the internet called "Limewire" and starts to illegally download music in the hope of finding something to satisfy his musical tastes. Over the next couple of months he begins to experiment, discovering The Mars Volta, King Crimson and even Devin Townsend. After a year or so Bob discovers torrents and rapidshare / mediafire, and his true ascendancy into musical enlightenment begins. He begins to download artists which at one point he never knew existed, obscure bands unknown to the rest of society. His tastes have developed into something he never could have foreseen as a young teen, he's come to enjoy the finer things in music, from ambient to shoegaze or even black metal. But one thing doesn't change, he still buys his favorite albums. He's still able to appreciate the music which he holds so dear to him, except that he's buying from genres that are obscenely obscure. He's able to respect the musicians which still bring him joy, even if he happened to disregard some of them. The point is that Bob would never have discovered those bands if it weren't for illegal downloading, he never would have bought that Porcupine Tree album if he hadn't bootlegged the other one first. He utilized bootlegging as a portal into a new realm of music. He may have downloaded some things which he wasn't supposed to, but in the end he still purchased his favorite music, which in the end evolved from terrible garbage like Disturbed to talented artists Absu or Intronaut. Only through the use of bootlegging can someone discover and love these bands. It helps educate people about those bands we never knew existed. It helps dispose of musical ignorance, and develops musical taste. People will always buy music, illegal downloading just allows people to buy music that they were once ignorant of.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: October 01 2009 at 12:51 | |||||
1. This is obviously a "half full / half empty" situation ... you can see it either way. 2. An advantage of the digital solution is that you can make backups. Not necessarily hard disks (they break easily) but memory cards or USB sticks. You can also encrypt them and carry them with you (I have one attached to my key ring) ... that way even if my apartment is pulverized, I still have my music. BTW: I already posted about the destruction of my vinyl collection by a leaking water pipe ... so much for scary dependencies. |
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: October 01 2009 at 12:43 | |||||
Nowadays I listen to music almost exclusively at the computer, through Winamp. Yet I also listen to whole albums most of the time. Listening to tracks instead of albums isn't something that was introduced with downloads ... back in the 1990s I did it all the time, that's what cassette recorders were made for!
We discussed this above ... the pictures on the album sleeves are also merely reproductions of the originals ... fakes, if you want. I don't ... to me the medium is irrelevant. Regardless of whether the picture is printed on paper or displayed on a computer screen, the real art is the painting itself. It's the same with music ... you can enjoy the art by listening to a mp3 file as much as by listening to a vinyl disc ... as long as you manage to realize that the content is more important than the medium. Edited by Mr ProgFreak - October 01 2009 at 12:45 |
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