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Joined: April 23 2006
Location: NYC
Status: Offline
Points: 11682
Posted: March 03 2007 at 12:06
Melomaniac wrote:
I don't think a band that release one so-called prog album can be considered prog.
Luckily, they have more than 1
Alright this thread (like several others before it ) has gotten a bit out of hand
My arguement could end by saying "They've already been accepted by the art rock team, there is no need for debate", but it won't. Therefore I'll use the definition provided by the site to defend my arguement.
1. Long Compositions - I'll concede that they don't have many long compositions, but many other bands widely considered prog didn't have long compositions either and the rules are common butnot definative.
2. Intricate lyrics - Definately Kid A/Amensiac and even OK Computer have these. They are both highly thematic albums which use interesting language to convey messages about the banes of modern life in a way that is both colorful and full of despair.
3. Concept albums - Most of their recent works are conceptual by use of theme. OK Computer is mostly concerning paranoia and dehumanization in the "computer age."
Kid A/Amensiac is a 2 CD concept album basically criticizing modern society for loss of values and emotional detachment along with lack of concern for others and complaceny. Hail to the Thief has the came concept to a lesser extent.
4. Unusual vocals - Thom Yorke's vocal style is highly unique (well recently it has been somewhat copied by modern bands, which makes it all the more important to music) and the band has experimented with abstract vocal patterns (see Like Spinning Plates, which was recorded backwards and Kid A/Pulk/pull Revolving Doors which uses vocal processors for distortion)
5. Electronic instrumentation - basically every album after OK Computer uses electronic instrumentation as an accompanyment to other styles the band uses. It's highly electronic but very different than Electronica/Techno because it's done very differently and used with different instruments as well.
6. Unusual time signatures, scales, tempos - Well I'm no expert on music theory but I do know that they have several songs using time signatures such as 5/4 and 7/4. For example, Paranoid Android switches through several time signatures.
7. Classical music - Again, not too much of this but I think very few prog bands I've heard use classical music as a promenant part of their sound.
8. Music connecting to art - In every booklet of OK Computer and later, there is a huge focus on the album art (some of which band members have made themselves, Thom Yorke and I think Stanley Godrich had an art exoposition using artwork from the albums in Spain recently) For example, Hail to the Thief has artwork used as a map of Los Angeles using the large words similar to the lyrics in the song and on the cover. Kid A and Amnesiac have album art very connected to the music because they are the same in theme. Kid A was even released with a 20 page art booklet with even more art connected directly to the music.
I think that about sums it up, Radiohead are tightly connected to Progressive Rock. They are mostly overlooked as such because they simply don't sell themselves as a Progressive Rock band and mention in every interview how their music was impacted by bands like Pink Floyd or Genesis or something like that.
Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46838
Posted: March 03 2007 at 11:40
Certif1ed wrote:
sircosick wrote:
Well, I'm a proghead, but I'm also a
brit-pop lover, so I like Oasis, Blur, Smashing Pumpkins, The Verve...
And Radiohead is, by far, the best brit-pop band; but as an art-rock
band, it doesn't prevent a special attention by prog reviewers. It is
not prog, definitively.
Note: Progheads put more attention on "Kid A"; as a brit-pop lover, I could say "Kid A" is the worst Radiohead album.
You've pretty much shot yourself in the foot there, and made the point that Radiohead can be considered prog very nicely!
"as a brit-pop lover, I could say "Kid A" is the worst Radiohead album."
...But as a Prog Rock lover, I could say "Kid A" is the best Radiohead album.
That contradicts your statement "but as an art-rock band, it doesn't prevent a special attention by prog reviewers. It is not prog, definitively." perfectly.
Kid A owes more to Kraftwerk and Can than it does to Oasis, ergo, Radiohead are Prog.
Case closed, yer honour!
what he said ^
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
Posted: March 03 2007 at 11:40
Floydian42 wrote:
Barley anything on Amnesiac and Kid A is Alternative or Indie. Ok, Pablo Honey and the Bends we're, and I think Ok Computer is Roughly 50/50. That Leaves Hail to the Thief, which I am sure (minus two or three songs) is neither Alternative or Indie.
So If you haven't listened to all there stuff, I can see why you'd be saying that, but if you have I wonder what exactly your definition of Alternative and Indie is.
Please Floydian, if you knew me you wouldn't accuse me of writting anything without having heard it, I have heard each and every Radiohead album and for me it's Indie/Alternative in it's greatest part, maybe one Prog Related albums at the most.
That's my opinion but you can google Radiohead Indie/Alternative (Very specific) and you will find 51,000 links, If you check for the more Generic Radiohead Alternative, you will find 1'490,000 links, if you google for Radiohead Indie, you will find 1'650,000 links, so I'm not alone.
I have quoted the most reliable Prog sites and 4 out of 7 (Not counting PA) don't even mention Radiohead in their database.
If you trust more in mainstream sites, check Allmusic:
So both, most of the Prog sites and mainstream sites agree in something, it's not Prog and Allmusic describes them as Alternative and Indie plus Britpop.
This appears before BBC's Interview to Radiohead after Hail to the Thief:
Rock's most unlikely superstars Radiohead have returned to the fray with their sixth album Hail To The Thief.
Hailed as the saviours of indie rock and pilloried as pained miserablists in equal measure, the band have swapped their recent experimental sound for something more akin to The Bends and OK Computer.
BTW: All Radiohead albums since OK Computer except Hail to the Thief won or were nomenees for the Grammy Awards for the Best Alternative albums, prices that they accepted.
So, it's clear, I never talk without support, even when my main source of information is my own knowledge which is probably very limited but I trust in it.
Now, it's not my call to move them but Art Rock's team and they have expressed their opinion which I absolutely respect, but don't try to make me change my opinion because I won't do it and don't insinuate I write smething without having heard it, because that's not how I act.
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
Posted: March 03 2007 at 11:38
sircosick wrote:
Well, I'm a proghead, but I'm also a brit-pop lover, so I like Oasis, Blur, Smashing Pumpkins, The Verve... And Radiohead is, by far, the best brit-pop band; but as an art-rock band, it doesn't prevent a special attention by prog reviewers. It is not prog, definitively.
Note: Progheads put more attention on "Kid A"; as a brit-pop lover, I could say "Kid A" is the worst Radiohead album.
You've pretty much shot yourself in the foot there, and made the point that Radiohead can be considered prog very nicely!
"as a brit-pop lover, I could say "Kid A" is the worst Radiohead album."
...But as a Prog Rock lover, I could say "Kid A" is the best Radiohead album.
That contradicts your statement "but as an art-rock band, it doesn't prevent a special attention by prog reviewers. It is not prog, definitively." perfectly.
Kid A owes more to Kraftwerk and Can than it does to Oasis, ergo, Radiohead are Prog.
Case closed, yer honour!
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ you wrote that, didn't you? Well done!
...caught
...and if you read the Typical Characteristics, as presented by Wikipedia, you'll note that Radiohead fit the bill perfectly, from OK Computer onwards.
If you think about it, it's more progressive than the average Barclay James Harvest album (from which it appears to draw a lot of inspiration).
No-one disputes BJH as Prog Rock - odd, since they only ever wrote "standard rock songs", with very few exceptions, and NO experimentation.
Joined: January 13 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 846
Posted: March 03 2007 at 09:25
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
I think as time goes by that people will accept Radiohead as prog I think its just the 'new kid on the block syndrome'
Please, why must it be a syndrome? Why can't it be a sincere and reflected opinion?
There are newer bands that rarely people object, Radiohead is not one of them. IMO Alternatuive/Indie is not equal to Prog, as simple as that.
But again, they are here to stay.
Iván
Barley anything on Amnesiac and Kid A is Alternative or Indie. Ok, Pablo Honey and the Bends we're, and I think Ok Computer is Roughly 50/50. That Leaves Hail to the Thief, which I am sure (minus two or three songs) is neither Alternative or Indie.
So If you haven't listened to all there stuff, I can see why you'd be saying that, but if you have I wonder what exactly your definition of Alternative and Indie is.
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
Posted: March 03 2007 at 09:13
Oh, no, no battles... We're a team, and we'll make a democratic decision. If I am outnumbered, I'll accept it without any protest. After all, as I just said, I don't know their whole output, but only that single album - which doesn't make my opinion that well-informed.
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
Posted: March 03 2007 at 08:57
As Radiohead are included in Art Rock, they are indeed considered as fully Prog here on PA. However, as we proceed in our cleanup (now unfortunately come to a standstill because of Rico's absence and other assorted problems), we'll probably discuss the issue and decide to move them. Personally, I've only heard "OK Computer", and it didn't strike me as particularly prog - though I would see them well in Prog-Related together with the likes of Muse.
Joined: September 18 2005
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 336
Posted: March 03 2007 at 08:51
I've lost my faith in humanity really.Don't get me wrong(i'm sure you will though) radiohead is much more prog than bands such as Flower Kings for example.Why's that?They're really pushing the envelope,creating marvelous ,experimental music based on rock (but not always) structures.They progress with each album , and even though they're not great players , they sure know how to play every note they think of..They're exceptional composers and they never created safe,easy music (apart from Pablo honey).Bands that copy the 70s prog sound nowadays, are not progressive for me since they never evolve and never create something new .I'm not saying that it's bad when you do it.But in my opinion that's the starting point and you have to draw inspiration from it .When you produce that sound for yourself that's fine , just don't say that you're a pioneer !
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
Posted: March 03 2007 at 08:31
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Spiderprog wrote:
When it comes to defenitions Radiohead are already defined as Prog in the pages of music history (are they not listed in this website?). Personal opinion is something else. I can claim that King Crimson is not Prog, so what if I do?
Nothing would happen except that:
100% of the Prog listening world thinks that King Crimson is Prog.
Maybe 50% if not much more of the Prog listening people think Radiohead is not Prog.
King Crinson is a fact, Radiohead is most likely in doubt.
Iván
OMG how I hate it when opinions are sold as facts.
Mike, when will you learn I talk with facts and not wild gueses:
I.- Prog Archives: When Prog Archives was added PA was divided in two, Radiohead is the only case I remember in which a petition to remove them was created in a poll with no multiple votes allowed:
Poll Question: BAN RADIOHEAD?
Poll Choice
Votes
Poll Statistics
83
[47.70%]
91
[52.30%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted
The no option vote with less than +/.- 5%, this is a statstical tie in a short ubniverse as Prog Atchives active members.
II.- Major Prog sites: I only really trust in 5 sites besides PA: Gibraltar Enciclopedia of Progressive Rock; Proggnosis and Progressive Ears Progressive World Net and Progressor. The pages I trust in Spanish are Manticornio and La Caja de Musica (Where Cesar Inca is one of the responsibles).
GEPR: The most reliable site on the net after us doesn't consider them Prog, as a fact they don't mention them.
Proggnosis: Includes them in Post Pop - Rock
Progressive Ears: Mentions them with no genre description.
Progressor: Doesn't include them at all.
Manticornio; Doesn't even mention tyhem
La Caja de Música: Doesn't even mention Radiohead
Progressive World Net: Doesn't include them (And they consider REM Prog )
Babyblaue
Out of the reliable sites:
Only one Prog Archives, considers them fully Prog but the opinion of the members is divided.
One considers them Postrt POP - Rock, in other words semi Prog
One mentions them but doesn't classify them (Progressive Ears.
FIVE sites don't even mention Radiohead
Don't care about Amarok (French) because they are clueless, they consider Radiohead Symphonic.
So you don't say I discriminate your country, checked Babyblaue, my German may be very rusty but still I could understand they consider Radiohead a Pop/Punk/Electronig Guitar Band, they only care for OK Computer as a new kind of Prog.
So Mike, learn something I always talk with support and I base my opinions in facts, in this case not only the opinion of almost 50% of Prog Archives members but the reliable Prog sites, most of which don't even mentoion Radiohead.
But I was the first to say they are here to stay and even those of us who don't agree must accept they are here to stay.
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Online
Points: 21383
Posted: March 03 2007 at 04:15
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Spiderprog wrote:
When it comes to defenitions Radiohead are already defined as Prog in the pages of music history (are they not listed in this website?). Personal opinion is something else. I can claim that King Crimson is not Prog, so what if I do?
Nothing would happen except that:
100% of the Prog listening world thinks that King Crimson is Prog.
Maybe 50% if not much more of the Prog listening people think Radiohead is not Prog.
King Crinson is a fact, Radiohead is most likely in doubt.
Iván
OMG how I hate it when opinions are sold as facts.
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Is Radiohead prog?
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Avantgardehead wrote:
) has gotten a bit out of hand
<font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR]
After all, as I just said, I don't know their whole output, but only that single album - which doesn't make my opinion that well-informed.
[47.70%]
)
