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frippism

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Posted: April 06 2012 at 10:38

dennismoore wrote:

Dear Mr. "who I thought looked like a very scary Bobbie Fripp, but it turned out I was misinformed",

I included your entire post here in hopes that others may read it. I think it is absolutely brilliant and am basically blown away by you after reading it. Can't say much more than that.

dennismoore wrote:

I will just reply with a few simple points:

(Informal someone who is easily frightened)

Btw just for future knowledge I lived in the States and my English is as good as my Hebrew (meaning their both pretty much my native tongues). So no problems with vocab and such :).

dennismoore wrote:

1. US Tax dollars to Israel(and other countries) US Politicians give out real $$$ like candy with no accounting and now USA is in so much debt, a "Greece" scenario is very real. Having a daughter, I am actually terrified. When USA is bankrupt we will not be a very good ally to Israel or caretaker to our own citizens. This is a financial fact, not me being a scaredy-cat.

America has never been more close to losing the power it has gained after WWII, in my opinion. The rise of China and India- though both are far from achieving the economic presence, and from establishing a middle class of any kind, they're massively expanding economies is as intimidating as it impressive. The American "empire" (bit of a mean word, and perhaps very unjust) might be on its death bed. But you probably know a lot more about this topic as I do, as I'm as good at economics as an apricot.

dennismoore wrote:

2. I do keep up with the middle east, and I used the term Arab, in very general terms, I know there are so many tribes and infinite political histories & situations there (which you put so aptly in the above quote.). No matter how complex, the Arabs still need a solution to their Palestinian brothers.

3. Israel giving up part of Gaza. If it were that easy I would support that in a second. My long held belief has been, once the Palestinians have that they will want more and will not be sastified with that small section. However, it would not hurt to try and do like you say in the end of your post. What happens after, if & when that happens, can be addressed after, I suppose.

I'll address both together. It is without a trace of doubt, that the people of Palestine deserve the human rights such as the ones in the successfully democratic countries, from the fact that they are human beings. I do not know, though, to what extent the term "brother" manages to stay valid when the common denominator- which is the opposition to the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, and at some cases the opposition to a Zionist state altogether- goes away. The problem I find with this that while Israel's Arab neighbours are all very happy happy joy joy to the Palestinians at the moment, when the moment arrives and the Palestinian issue will be on their table, their Arab neighbours will not want to make the effort and come with a proper solution, as it will probably not aid the Arab countries financially or politically in any way.

I forgot to say, that Gaza has been free of military occupation and of any Jewish settlements since 2005. The upheaval of Jewish settlements there was incredibly chaotic, though successful in the end (though the number was if I remember correctly less than 10,000 Jewish settlers). With that, the de-occupying of Gaza has been nothing short of a gigantic failure. Rockets are constantly being fired at the Israeli south (I'm in constant fear. While no rockets have reached Tel Aviv yet, they can, and probably will eventually. Tel Aviv though being a bustling city, and its bombing might be the cause of a war. But it can always happen. I can only imagine what the people of southern Israel need to go through). Also, considering the massive military operations by the Israeli army in Gaza, aimed at taking out terrorists, but also killing thousands of civilians- most of them Palestinians (if you include the mini-war pretty much that went on 2006 in Gaza when the confrontations reached their peak).

The failure mostly comes from Hamas' success in controlling Gaza. And so, when the Israeli occupation of West Bank comes to an end, it needs be done knowing that Hamas doesn't manage to take power from Abu Mazen and the Palestinian Liberation Front, who at least recognises Israel's right to exist (well at least says so) and supports the 2 state solution. The Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist, and its control over the West Bank would prove to be disastrous to both Israel and Palestine.

Will the Palestinians drive to attain more of Israel after the establishment of Palestine? Definitely possible. There's a definitely a feeling of unjustness within the Palestinians- that their land has been taken from them and they have been driven away (as I said in my previous post, the statement definitely has some truth to it). With that, there's just the fact that the pre-1967 borders just have a fairly clear Jewish majority. So while they might want more of Israel's territory, it will just face large opposition world-wide and from the Israeli people (they still face much opposition by the Israeli people today, though), and this fight will also, hopefully for Israel, lose steam fairly quickly.

dennismoore wrote:

4. You are dead right about US politicians pandering to rich jewish interests here in the USA. When I was young I was taught the Golden Rule. Years later I was taught the real Golden Rule: He who has the Gold makes the rules. US Politicians pander to rich people of all creeds and make laws that profit them handsomely, yet they leave the debt of those policies to millions of American taxapyers. That is why the USA is where we are today. We will have to pay the piper sooner or later.

Fight the man! I feel like the situation in Israel economically is way too similar to the situation in the U.S. Capitalism is what makes massive economic growth possible in democratic countries. Over-capitalisation, though, as you know, will cause the rift between the upper and lower classes. The lower class lose faith in democracy, the upper class gets massive political and economic power, and sh*t gets bleak. There's a time and place for every economic policy- it is time for the U.S., and Israel to obtain a better balance between Capitalism and Socialism.

Happy Passover to all Boobalachs in PA!

[/QUOTE]

There be dragons

Blacksword View Drop Down

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Posted: April 06 2012 at 10:32

Left/Libertarian according to a political compass test I took.

I'm trying to be less opinionated about politics, because it seems to upset people. For what it's worth I don't believe that any of our politicians have the answers to the economics problems we face, globally. In my humble opinion, anyone who thinks they do, is likely to be disappointed, and whether the left or right prevail, the majority of us will end up broke. I guess it all depends on whether you want communists or fascists presiding over your austerity. Ultimately you'll probably find it doesn't make any difference.

Anyway, in case there was any doubt, I quite like progressive rock..

Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!

topographicbroadways View Drop Down

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Posted: April 06 2012 at 10:09

How many Left Wingers are Left handed? I'm left handed and a left winger Cool

I would expect most of the typical PA'ers to be conservatives. Considering musically they consider the age when minorities were marginalised, the media spewed right wing propaganda and the world was generally ignorant to be the golden age of music Smile

But wait...America is still like that Thumbs Up

colorofmoney91 View Drop Down

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Posted: April 06 2012 at 09:57

I'm generally a lefty, but I'm not so far into the left that I've lost my mind.

Hanashukketsu

frippism

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Posted: April 06 2012 at 09:21

lazland wrote:

Left - bloody Tories Angry

And just to get a thumbs down from my mate, Snow Dog, Welsh independence.

There be dragons

lazland

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Posted: April 06 2012 at 09:18

Left - bloody Tories Angry

And just to get a thumbs down from my mate, Snow Dog, Welsh independence.

Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org

Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!

dennismoore View Drop Down

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Posted: April 06 2012 at 08:44

frippism wrote:

OK, first of all- the billions spent on Israel by the U.S. each year. Well firstly, I won't lie to you, it is more or less keeping us afloat here. I completely understand why it sucks though, I really do. The fact that I sometimes complain how picky the U.S. can be in international affairs probably makes me the world's biggest hypocrite. There is though a reason to this above the humane mission to keep the Jewish state alive. Politics! Israel, as small, silly, and almost meaningless (rightfully so) to a country a billion (approximately) miles away, but with that, having a strong ally in the Middle East is an advantage to the United States. But more than that, because of the size of the Jewish community, and more than that, the estimated power held by the Jewish community- Israel is a tool for politicians to gain the support of the Jewish community in the States. There's never just a humane, kind, "keep democracy alive!" kind of reason. So do know- that your politicians are unashamedly using Israel as a tool to get votes and develop relations with rich Jewish businessmen. Just to cheer you up as I'm sure it does.

Regarding the Arab-Palestinian situation. Well firstly, the Arab world is filled with different sects (Sunni, Shi'ite, Bedouin in Israel- well not really Arab but sorta, and more and more), which without Israel, would be pretty much at each others neck. Some already are (in Syria the Alawis lead by Assad is pretty much controlling the mass majority of Sunnis in Syria).

In fact, Jordan is already 30-60% Palestinian (depends how you define Palestinian and who you ask). But to say the least, the Palestinians who fled, or were banished (depends what situation and who you're asking), to Jordan as war refugees weren't accepted with open arms.

In general, countries such as Syria and Jordan, are pretty much just territories left by the British and French mandates in the area. To say there's such a thing as Syrian, or a Jordanian, in that they sure a national history and unity, is in my opinion a bit of a stretch (I'm sure there are many people who will disagree with this claim). The populations there are generally a bit of a mish-mash of different Arab sects.

With that, in sad truth, no Arab country wants to accept the Palestinians. Well it's not surprising, it would be just like if a bunch of Americans would've immigrated like crazy to Canada because of a war. While Canada will probably welcome them, it will be in hostile and unwelcoming hands- hands that won't be able to support the American refugees financially at all, and won't want to. Well it's not the same with Canada as it is in the Middle East. In the M.E. everything's a bit more problematic.

The point I'm trying to make after all this rambling, is that Palestinians won't be accepted in countries as demographically a bit crazy as the Jordan, Syria, and to a lesser extent, Egypt. It will cause a civilian uproar and the gov'ts won't do anything to actually support these refugees.

The inconvenient truth, is that if Israel would've annexed Gaza and the West Bank in 1967, and would've more less caused the fleeing and banishing of the Palestinian populations there- we obviously wouldn't have been having this conversation, but in general the world would have stopped caring long ago, and Gaza and the West Bank could have been Israel's, and there wouldn't be a Israeli-Palestinian conflict, or at least to a much lesser extent. It took Israel 9 years to establish diplomatic relation with Germany after WWII. Humans forget, not as much as forgive. Even if the Palestinians would've insisted in fighting for the land (I'm not going to go into whose land it is, because it's pointless argument. The land is of the conquerors. It always is. The truth is that the Jews conquered Israel as much as they settled in it and developed it, and that's just what needs to be done to establish a country for people with no real land. Again, sad and unfair, but true), their struggle would've lost steam long ago.

But a military occupation was established and we see how big of a mistake it is every day. And every day it's getting worse and every day it costs more money and strains relations between pretty much everybody. While Israel's small, it's not like the West Bank is really occupied by Jews (350,000 Jews who are considered by the U.N. as illegal settlers. Most of them are there for ideological reasons alone. There are 3.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank). The fact is that giving up will cause large civilian upheavals, but won't really change anything territorial-wise for a clear majority of Jewish Israelis. Israel's about the size of NJ, and the size of the stretch from the coast to the West Bank, in its narrowest point is about 2/3 the size of Manhattan. It's a tiny speck which is making way too much noise.

So while releasing the territories will cause one hell of a mess, it's a sacrifice that in my opinion need to be done.

Dear Mr. "who I thought looked like a very scary Bobbie Fripp, but it turned out I was misinformed",

I included your entire post here in hopes that others may read it. I think it is absolutely brilliant and am basically blown away by you after reading it. Can't say much more than that. I will just reply with a few simple points:

2. I do keep up with the middle east, and I used the term Arab, in very general terms, I know there are so many tribes and infinite political histories & situations there (which you put so aptly in the above quote.). No matter how complex, the Arabs still need a solution to their Palestinian brothers.

4. You are dead right about US politicians pandering to rich jewish interests here in the USA. When I was young I was taught the Golden Rule. Years later I was taught the real Golden Rule: He who has the Gold makes the rules. US Politicians pander to rich people of all creeds and make laws that profit them handsomely, yet they leave the debt of those policies to millions of American taxapyers. That is why the USA is where we are today. We will have to pay the piper sooner or later.

Peace to you my friend,

Edited by dennismoore - April 06 2012 at 08:48

harmonium.ro View Drop Down

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Posted: April 06 2012 at 06:55

Classical liberalism in a moderately strong leftist interpretation is how I have built my political views for the issues of today.

Snow Dog

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Posted: April 06 2012 at 05:44

JJLehto wrote:

Scottish Independence

akamaisondufromage View Drop Down

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Posted: April 06 2012 at 05:35

dennismoore wrote:

akamaisondufromage wrote:

Are you claiming this bunch of reprobates as your own?

And I think you'll find we invented that Idol thing

Dear Casa De Queso,

I just have one word for you:

S-A-T-U-R-D-A-Y S-A-T-U-R-D-A-Y S-A-T-U-R-D-A-Y LOL

I was felling bad for all the pop garbage US record companies have spewed, then I remembered
you lot in the United Kingdom, in one fell swoop infected Planet Earth, with the worst plague man has ever seen....

Yes, that's right, you got it: The Spice Girls Confused

And then to show you still have it, you doubled down with:

Lady Gaga Dead

Yeah that Simon Cowpie dude is b*****d spawn of some rich English Lord, I read... You are right, you invented "Idol". Wink

Denise

Now I know you're taking the Michael . First of all its Friday fool. Those Spice Girls are not by any means as bad as .....PUT THE NAME OF ANY RECENT BOY BAND HERE as you should know. Lady Gaga is yours. We are guilty of Simon Cowpie and for that I am SORRY truly.

Edited by akamaisondufromage - April 06 2012 at 05:37

Help me I'm falling!

frippism

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Posted: April 06 2012 at 02:24

dennismoore wrote:

Never heard of Tim Smith, let's google it:

"Cardiacs are an English alternative rock/psychedelic pop band formed in 1977 and led by Tim Smith. Noted for their complex, varied and intense compositional style"

Sounds like a very progressive bunch of lads. Kudos to them. I hope Mr. Smith recovers fully from his ailments. Smile

Any description pretty much fails with them. Let's just call them good pop music.

dennismoore wrote:

About the MiddleEast conflict:

As an American who has heard from our politicians why we need to give billions to Israel and all the other countries in the world, I say, like most American's, ok. that is nice, let's see if things work out ok, well that song is now over 40 years old for me and I am at a loss, and I am worried that after so long maybe it is impossible as both sides seem to just do the same old pandering to their own peoples. Hamas & Right-wing Israelis.

I have always thought that Israel is so small and the Arab middle east is so large, why can't other Arab nations give the Palestinians some land for their nation? I say I am Roman Catholic to show I have no horse in this race, but I would think any Christian should first want peace, above all else.

Jerusalem itself is bitterly contested to this day by the 3 prominent Western Religions, Christianity, Islam & Judaism and they all claim the same space as their ground zero. Seems the only rational solution there is to divide the year in three sections and give each equal time there. (If the Druids also have a claim, then give them Ground Hog Day... Wink

)

For the Palestinians, well as you said they are so many and will probably out number Jews in a few years, so sharing such a small land as Israel is not possible without constant civil fighting, so...

It seems the only solution would be for the Arab Nations to unite and give the Palestinians their own land. Jordan & Egypt are so vast, for the sake of peace for their own Arab peoples and the world it would be a small price to pay. Israel is pretty freakin tiny already, these Jews who are hated by the entire Arab world should live in an even smaller place???

Just my $02. from over here in America.

I don't see how it can work any other way.

I'm not really up for 40 more years of wars, terrorism and billions of US Tax dollars spent.

So while releasing the territories will cause one hell of a mess, it's a sacrifice that in my opinion need to be done.

There be dragons

dennismoore View Drop Down

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Posted: April 05 2012 at 21:33

frippism wrote:

That's Tim Smith of Cardiacs in the pic :).

Just to shower this whole ordeal with more problems, the fact that Gaza and the West Bank are two separated territories from each other can only increase the chances 3 states (If we all just look back to when East Pakistan and West Pakistan had a civil war where rockets were flying over India. East Pakistan is now Bangladesh), and that's fine, as long as there's no civil war with rockets flying over Israel and such.

Never heard of Tim Smith, let's google it:

"Cardiacs are an English alternative rock/psychedelic pop band formed in 1977 and led by Tim Smith. Noted for their complex, varied and intense compositional style"

Sounds like a very progressive bunch of lads. Kudos to them. I hope Mr. Smith recovers fully from his ailments. Smile

About the MiddleEast conflict:

As an American who has heard from our politicians why we need to give billions to Israel and all the other countries in the world, I say, like most American's, ok. that is nice, let's see if things work out ok, well that song is now over 40 years old for me and I am at a loss, and I am worried that after so long maybe it is impossible as both sides seem to just do the same old pandering to their own peoples. Hamas & Right-wing Israelis.

I have always thought that Israel is so small and the Arab middle east is so large, why can't other Arab nations give the Palestinians some land for their nation? I say I am Roman Catholic to show I have no horse in this race, but I would think any Christian should first want peace, above all else.

Jerusalem itself is bitterly contested to this day by the 3 prominent Western Religions, Christianity, Islam & Judaism and they all claim the same space as their ground zero. Seems the only rational solution there is to divide the year in three sections and give each equal time there. (If the Druids also have a claim, then give them Ground Hog Day... Wink

dennismoore View Drop Down

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Posted: April 05 2012 at 20:54

akamaisondufromage wrote:

Are you claiming this bunch of reprobates as your own?

And I think you'll find we invented that Idol thing

Dear Casa De Queso,

I just have one word for you:

S-A-T-U-R-D-A-Y S-A-T-U-R-D-A-Y S-A-T-U-R-D-A-Y LOL

And then to show you still have it, you doubled down with:

Lady Gaga Dead

Yeah that Simon Cowpie dude is b*****d spawn of some rich English Lord, I read... You are right, you invented "Idol". Wink

CCVP

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Posted: April 05 2012 at 19:07

I'm a centerist myself.

JJLehto

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Posted: April 05 2012 at 18:49

CPicard wrote:

PyramidMeetsTheEye wrote:

dude you forgot vladimir ilich lenning,leon trotsky and few other bolshevists that i cant remember now.

Who? vladimir ilich lemming? Was he a suicidal mammal?

I also believe in mandatory gay marriage.

That's how f**king liberal I am, see it? You see how liberal I am? You other people are posers.

Edited by JJLehto - April 05 2012 at 18:51

CPicard

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Posted: April 05 2012 at 17:00

^People paid to see these clowns on stage?
They look like if they stole some stuff in the Munchkins' wardrobe and barely adapt it to their size.

akamaisondufromage View Drop Down

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Posted: April 05 2012 at 16:52

dennismoore wrote:

jude111 wrote:

No, you won't be the next Greece. Greece may be broke, but they still have the Acropolis, the Parthenon, countless ancient temples and architectural wonders of the world. Not to mention stunning islands like Santorini, Mykonos, Nisyros, etc. America will have broken down gas stations, collapsing Wall Marts, and rusting cars on cracked highways. If only the US could be the next Greece, I would return. LOL

As an American I take great exceptioon to this:

Those of us proud residents of The Corporate States of America have:

The Bay City Rollers (they are gettin a bit old, now...)

Britney Spears

The World's Number 1 exporter of used cardboard

A tiny group of billionaires who are getting exponentially more wealthy while millions more Americans enter poverty.

Two major failed wars which prices of over 1.5 trillion dollars have been passed on to working class American's children.

The civilized world's largest numerical & per capita number of imprisoned citizens

The greatest failed war ever (The ongoing war on drugs)

A new found relgious fanaticism & intolerance that now dominates one major political party.

Best TV show even invented - American Idol

Sarah Palin

World's Greatest Journalists - Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity

A failing health care system...

Of all these great things, admit it, you non-Americans are just jealous! Ha! Gotcha!

Rush Limbaugh is right, all you anti-American euros & communists wanna destroy our great way of life.

Are you claiming this bunch of reprobates as your own?

And I think you'll find we invented that Idol thing

Help me I'm falling!

frippism

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Posted: April 05 2012 at 16:34

dennismoore wrote:

Dear very scary looking Robert Fripp-type person,

That's Tim Smith of Cardiacs in the pic :).

dennismoore wrote:

I read your entire post

thank you

dennismoore wrote:

and must say you have a unique understaning of the complexity of things, Yes, human relations/situations are quite involved and I am not sure if our current system of polarized politics (left-right or democrat-republican) is up for the task of addressing any of this.

For me, I am very conservative, I want to conserve our resources and conserve human rights, conserve American freedoms and raise my child how I see fit, Yet I have nothing in common with the USA's modern Conservative Party who want none of these things, My point is: labels like conservative or liberal are worthless and have become a rallying point for peddlers of deceit and discrimination.

Agreed- these labels are as stupid as they are dangerous.

You sound more like the Zappa type of conservative. That's a compliment by the way!

dennismoore wrote:

The rich and powerful use these labels to control politicians to turn each of us against one another while they make billions on wars and laws to benefit only large conglomerates.

As far as this topic, this forum, at least for Americans, logically(not my opinion) should be heavily tilted to the liberal side, simply because of prog music and the bands that make it.

Probably true for non-Americans as well :).

dennismoore wrote:

@frippism: Having observed the Arab-Israeli conflict since the late 1960's I do hope & pray that one day you and your neighbors will have peace. It would be a blessing if that could happen in our lifetime!

Thanks! I really do wonder how it will turn out.

But hey. There's hope. Maybe.

There be dragons

dennismoore View Drop Down

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Posted: April 05 2012 at 15:51

frippism wrote:

In a way I oppose political "leanings" because when you define yourself as something, your thinking might be warped by your self-definition. A la "I think this, but I'm this, therefore I will find a reason to think like that".

The left-right situation here in Israel is f**king mental. On the one hand, we have the left wingers- stereo-typically, European descent, High class, doctors and lawyers and Hi-tech people, who believe in the return of the 1967 territories to the Palestinians and believe in a 2 state solution- a Jewish and an Arab state.

The right wingers here are- stereo-typically, Middle Eastern, lower class- who work in less "exclusive jobs" and such. They on the other hand will usually (and I use "usually" very loosely here)- believe in more "aggressive" approaches to the "Israeli-Palestinian" conflict.

-edit-

On the economic side, currently I'm on the left-center side of things. Each economic policy and its time and place. The over-capitalization of Israel has massively hurt the middle class and has now caused a major rift between the high class and low class- with the middle class withering.

Bla bla in these situations the gov't should help the people get the proper support in order to diminish the class differences. To do so, they must tax the rich, and establish further social aid to the people in the lower classes. Bla.

Dear very scary looking Robert Fripp-type person,

I read your entire post and must say you have a unique understaning of the complexity of things, Yes, human relations/situations are quite involved and I am not sure if our current system of polarized politics (left-right or democrat-republican) is up for the task of addressing any of this.

The rich and powerful use these labels to control politicians to turn each of us against one another while they make billions on wars and laws to benefit only large conglomerates.

As far as this topic, this forum, at least for Americans, logically(not my opinion) should be heavily tilted to the liberal side, simply because of prog music and the bands that make it.

RUSH (those Canadian heroes) This will not be the preferred band of Sarah Palin or Rick Santorum(running for US President) or Rush Limbaugh or any GOP conservative really, Rush is into "freewill", Conservative USA is about installing a particular type of Christianity and controlling how people act, reproduce, and worship & marry.

YES - Uh I doubt the typical American Conservative is a big Jon Anderson peace & love fan.

Pink Floyd - I can safely predict that Pink Floyd - Animals will not be played at the 2012 GOP Convention.

Now if this were a Country-Western Forum, I would think the liberals or Democrats would be rare and conservates or Republicans would dominate.

@frippism: Having observed the Arab-Israeli conflict since the late 1960's I do hope & pray that one day you and your neighbors will have peace. It would be a blessing if that could happen in our lifetime!

dennismoore View Drop Down

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Posted: April 05 2012 at 15:09

As an American I take great exception to this:

Those of us proud residents of The Corporate States of America have:

The Bay City Rollers (they are gettin a bit old, now...)

Britney Spears

The World's Number 1 exporter of used cardboard

A tiny group of billionaires who are getting exponentially more wealthy while millions more Americans enter poverty.

Two major failed wars which prices of over 1.5 trillion dollars have been passed on to working class American's children.

The civilized world's largest numerical & per capita number of imprisoned citizens

The greatest failed war ever (The ongoing war on drugs)

A new found relgious fanaticism & intolerance that now dominates one major political party.

Best TV show even invented - American Idol

Sarah Palin

World's Greatest Journalists - Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity

A failing health care system...

Of all these great things, admit it, you non-Americans are just jealous! Ha! Gotcha!

Rush Limbaugh is right, all you anti-American euros & communists wanna destroy our great way of life.

Edited by dennismoore - April 05 2012 at 20:39

Poll Question: I love prog, and consider myself to be:
Poll Choice	Votes	Poll Statistics
Left of center	37	[60.66%]
Right of center	11	[18.03%]
In the center	13	[21.31%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted