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Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
Posted: November 11 2011 at 07:27
Even with definitions of music being thrown around: still not convinced. Not convinced either, that there is a universally valid definition of music. How could there be if even prog as subgenre has no definition? My definition is as good as any other, and miles better than those that include rap. It's not music.
Joined: July 28 2010
Location: Funky Town
Status: Offline
Points: 12794
Posted: November 10 2011 at 22:22
The Dark Elf wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
The Dark Elf, nobody cares that your personal definition of music is so ludicrously twisted that rap does not fit in it, please stop.
Being ludicrous never stopped you from voicing your peculiar opinions. And since this forum is based wholly on opinion the last time I checked, I don't feel it necessary to defer to your patented "This is Henry Plainview making a conclusive and inarguable judgment post"(TM).
Rap's status as music is a fact, not an opinion, and that is one of the few things I think about music is objective. Any definition of music that manages to exclude rap renders the term completely meaningless.
Music is art and art is, in and of itself, wholly subjective. What may strike you as art may not effect someone else at all. Is rap "music" in the broadest sense? Yes, I suppose so. Rather like a person can put a single dot of paint on a canvas and call it art.
So then music is whatever you want it to be? You can just pick and choose things you want to put in a word what has already been defined?
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13065
Posted: November 10 2011 at 21:52
Henry Plainview wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
The Dark Elf, nobody cares that your personal definition of music is so ludicrously twisted that rap does not fit in it, please stop.
Being ludicrous never stopped you from voicing your peculiar opinions. And since this forum is based wholly on opinion the last time I checked, I don't feel it necessary to defer to your patented "This is Henry Plainview making a conclusive and inarguable judgment post"(TM).
Rap's status as music is a fact, not an opinion, and that is one of the few things I think about music is objective. Any definition of music that manages to exclude rap renders the term completely meaningless.
Music is art and art is, in and of itself, wholly subjective. What may strike you as art may not effect someone else at all. Is rap "music" in the broadest sense? Yes, I suppose so. Rather like a person can put a single dot of paint on a canvas and call it art.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
Posted: November 10 2011 at 21:25
The Dark Elf wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
The Dark Elf, nobody cares that your personal definition of music is so ludicrously twisted that rap does not fit in it, please stop.
Being ludicrous never stopped you from voicing your peculiar opinions. And since this forum is based wholly on opinion the last time I checked, I don't feel it necessary to defer to your patented "This is Henry Plainview making a conclusive and inarguable judgment post"(TM).
Rap's status as music is a fact, not an opinion, and that is one of the few things I think about music is objective. Any definition of music that manages to exclude rap renders the term completely meaningless.
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13065
Posted: November 10 2011 at 21:17
Henry Plainview wrote:
The Dark Elf, nobody cares that your personal definition of music is so ludicrously twisted that rap does not fit in it, please stop.
Being ludicrous never stopped you from voicing your peculiar opinions. And since this forum is based wholly on opinion the last time I checked, I don't feel it necessary to defer to your patented "This is Henry Plainview making a conclusive and inarguable judgment post"(TM).
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
It's like going on youtube to look up some 60's band that is unknown today perform. A band that most people in the world believe is obscure where in my life during 1967 they were bigger than sliced bread. This sort of representation through the publications industry has been dead wrong since the mid 70's with the promotion of artists like Robin Trower the Hendrix copycat and forming this idealogy for people in life that all of these "Classic Rockers" like Frampton, Rush, and the later Pink Floyd are the cream of the crop for the quote on quote "Classic Rock" generation and even the early 70's generation. This is ridiculous and is insulting. It's like hiding the truth from the younger generations of today who might be interested in investigating the 60's and because they trust in the media they follow the life of Jimi Hendrix and dismiss everyone else that played great guitar in the 60's except for the 3 guys in the Yardbirds. If everyone wants to believe that way fine, but it is not honesty.
At any rate most of the kids I taught who were interested in Rap Music thought immediately that because of my age..that would equal my interest in music to be the usual suspects from the 60's and 70's. It's because they are being educated wrong. The radio used to educate people to "Rock Music" and that concept started to die in 1972 around the time of developing "Stadium Rock' which was cheap and contrived. . How can people ever learn anything when they have falsehood representation from the media? That's why when the local rap student observes that his dad is a Clapton or Rush fan.....that X equals square and the end. They simply define other generations with the representation that the media has for them on a silver platter. What's up with that? Hasn't anyone ever notice the vast quanity of people in society who are brainwashed to believe in this way of thinking?
Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with this. Bands like Glass Harp, Focus, Wishbone Ash, etc. were a lot more talented and better than a lot of the popular "Classic rock" but they're pretty much forgotten these days...
How true. Also loads of bands I grew up listening to in the 60's who were from America and just HUGE. people today are under the assumption that they were 1 hit wonders or because they haven't gotten the promotion or developing reputation of ...The Doors...they must have NOT been huge or not as popular like Jimi Hendrix or Eric Clapton which is beeeeeeeeeeeep thank you for playing! the wrong answer! These bands I am refering to were on the pre-planned wipe-out list designed by the hippies who took on the role of record executives. Like the story about the hippie that Zappa tells on youtube. The hippie who the old record executives hired to bring them coffee and donuts turned into a consultant and hired more hippies who chopped off their hair, wore business suits and shortened all the songs and wiped out the original 60's list of innovators from ever getting promoted again. Instead they focused on this usual suspects list and the rest is history. Moshkito must know what I'm talking about? He was there when it all went down. He must remember when this happened? Where is Moshkito when you need him? Moshkito! Where are you?
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17848
Posted: November 10 2011 at 17:57
Textbook wrote:
You can say "the rap music I have heard is bad music in my opinion", sure. But arguments that rap music is not music are elitist and the mark of a dinosaur.
Or as The Miracle stated............"the negative stereotypes of prog fans ...."
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
Posted: November 10 2011 at 17:48
You can say "the rap music I have heard is bad music in my opinion", sure. But arguments that rap music is not music are elitist and the mark of a dinosaur.
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17848
Posted: November 10 2011 at 17:34
TODDLER wrote:
I cannot make claim to Rap Music being music at all unfortunately due to my experience as a music teacher/instructor. The other side of the spectrum weighs me down and I can't join forces with Rap in giving it that kind of credit. I've seen Rap performed on poetry night at Barnes & Noble and Borders Books. The improvisation aspect to it is amazing. To actually have the ability to perhaps jump ahead of yourself during word thought and improvise rhymes off the top of your head is a very difficult task to perform. As you rap,...you are also thinking of another word that will rhyme with the one you are currently speaking. So you are seperating your thoughts from your performance like a machine that has boxes of words stored in your mind and you're just pulling them out like a magician pulls a rabbit out of a hat. The same method applies to sight reading music. When you're playing the 2nd measure of a Classical piece...your eyes are reading and your mind is memorizing the 5th and 6th measure. So you are always ahead of yourself.
I have noticed over the years that Rap Music doesn't put much emphasis on the work of harmony. Although over the years some Jazz musicians have recorded Rap albums and included diverse elements that were more directly rooted from instruments themselves and not constant drum machines and samples of other artists pieces. My personal deal is that everytime the 60's and early 70's is represented through all T.V broadcasts, radio, Rap Music, etc.....it is just sooooooo wrong. It's like going on youtube to look up some 60's band that is unknown today perform. A band that most people in the world believe is obscure where in my life during 1967 they were bigger than sliced bread. This sort of representation through the publications industry has been dead wrong since the mid 70's with the promotion of artists like Robin Trower the Hendrix copycat and forming this idealogy for people in life that all of these "Classic Rockers" like Frampton, Rush, and the later Pink Floyd are the cream of the crop for the quote on quote "Classic Rock" generation and even the early 70's generation. This is ridiculous and is insulting. It's like hiding the truth from the younger generations of today who might be interested in investigating the 60's and because they trust in the media they follow the life of Jimi Hendrix and dismiss everyone else that played great guitar in the 60's except for the 3 guys in the Yardbirds. If everyone wants to believe that way fine, but it is not honesty.
At any rate most of the kids I taught who were interested in Rap Music thought immediately that because of my age..that would equal my interest in music to be the usual suspects from the 60's and 70's. It's because they are being educated wrong. The radio used to educate people to "Rock Music" and that concept started to die in 1972 around the time of developing "Stadium Rock' which was cheap and contrived. . How can people ever learn anything when they have falsehood representation from the media? That's why when the local rap student observes that his dad is a Clapton or Rush fan.....that X equals square and the end. They simply define other generations with the representation that the media has for them on a silver platter. What's up with that? Hasn't anyone ever notice the vast quanity of people in society who are brainwashed to believe in this way of thinking?
That's heavy dude.......but I still think rap music is music, from your first sentence.
Does everyone think Kayo Dot is music? Or maybe better, if we accept Magma's language....why do we not accept rap language?
Joined: May 20 2009
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 220
Posted: November 10 2011 at 16:57
TODDLER wrote:
It's like going on youtube to look up some 60's band that is unknown today perform. A band that most people in the world believe is obscure where in my life during 1967 they were bigger than sliced bread. This sort of representation through the publications industry has been dead wrong since the mid 70's with the promotion of artists like Robin Trower the Hendrix copycat and forming this idealogy for people in life that all of these "Classic Rockers" like Frampton, Rush, and the later Pink Floyd are the cream of the crop for the quote on quote "Classic Rock" generation and even the early 70's generation. This is ridiculous and is insulting. It's like hiding the truth from the younger generations of today who might be interested in investigating the 60's and because they trust in the media they follow the life of Jimi Hendrix and dismiss everyone else that played great guitar in the 60's except for the 3 guys in the Yardbirds. If everyone wants to believe that way fine, but it is not honesty.
At any rate most of the kids I taught who were interested in Rap Music thought immediately that because of my age..that would equal my interest in music to be the usual suspects from the 60's and 70's. It's because they are being educated wrong. The radio used to educate people to "Rock Music" and that concept started to die in 1972 around the time of developing "Stadium Rock' which was cheap and contrived. . How can people ever learn anything when they have falsehood representation from the media? That's why when the local rap student observes that his dad is a Clapton or Rush fan.....that X equals square and the end. They simply define other generations with the representation that the media has for them on a silver platter. What's up with that? Hasn't anyone ever notice the vast quanity of people in society who are brainwashed to believe in this way of thinking?
Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with this. Bands like Glass Harp, Focus, Wishbone Ash, etc. were a lot more talented and better than a lot of the popular "Classic rock" but they're pretty much forgotten these days...
Joined: June 01 2010
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 10185
Posted: November 10 2011 at 12:27
TODDLER wrote:
I cannot make claim to Rap Music being music at all unfortunately due to my experience as a music teacher/instructor. The other side of the spectrum weighs me down and I can't join forces with Rap in giving it that kind of credit. I've seen Rap performed on poetry night at Barnes & Noble and Borders Books. The improvisation aspect to it is amazing. To actually have the ability to perhaps jump ahead of yourself during word thought and improvise rhymes off the top of your head is a very difficult task to perform. As you rap,...you are also thinking of another word that will rhyme with the one you are currently speaking. So you are seperating your thoughts from your performance like a machine that has boxes of words stored in your mind and you're just pulling them out like a magician pulls a rabbit out of a hat. The same method applies to sight reading music. When you're playing the 2nd measure of a Classical piece...your eyes are reading and your mind is memorizing the 5th and 6th measure. So you are always ahead of yourself.
I have noticed over the years that Rap Music doesn't put much emphasis on the work of harmony. Although over the years some Jazz musicians have recorded Rap albums and included diverse elements that were more directly rooted from instruments themselves and not constant drum machines and samples of other artists pieces. My personal deal is that everytime the 60's and early 70's is represented through all T.V broadcasts, radio, Rap Music, etc.....it is just sooooooo wrong. It's like going on youtube to look up some 60's band that is unknown today perform. A band that most people in the world believe is obscure where in my life during 1967 they were bigger than sliced bread. This sort of representation through the publications industry has been dead wrong since the mid 70's with the promotion of artists like Robin Trower the Hendrix copycat and forming this idealogy for people in life that all of these "Classic Rockers" like Frampton, Rush, and the later Pink Floyd are the cream of the crop for the quote on quote "Classic Rock" generation and even the early 70's generation. This is ridiculous and is insulting. It's like hiding the truth from the younger generations of today who might be interested in investigating the 60's and because they trust in the media they follow the life of Jimi Hendrix and dismiss everyone else that played great guitar in the 60's except for the 3 guys in the Yardbirds. If everyone wants to believe that way fine, but it is not honesty.
At any rate most of the kids I taught who were interested in Rap Music thought immediately that because of my age..that would equal my interest in music to be the usual suspects from the 60's and 70's. It's because they are being educated wrong.The radio used to educate people to "Rock Music" and that concept started to die in 1972 around the time of developing "Stadium Rock' which was cheap and contrived. . How can people ever learn anything when they have falsehood representation from the media? That's why when the local rap student observes that his dad is a Clapton or Rush fan.....that X equals square and the end. They simply define other generations with the representation that the media has for them on a silver platter. What's up with that? Hasn't anyone ever notice the vast quanity of people in society who are brainwashed to believe in this way of thinking?
I frankly can't understand why anyone would expect that from a toddler
I cannot make claim to Rap Music being music at all unfortunately due to my experience as a music teacher/instructor. The other side of the spectrum weighs me down and I can't join forces with Rap in giving it that kind of credit. I've seen Rap performed on poetry night at Barnes & Noble and Borders Books. The improvisation aspect to it is amazing. To actually have the ability to perhaps jump ahead of yourself during word thought and improvise rhymes off the top of your head is a very difficult task to perform. As you rap,...you are also thinking of another word that will rhyme with the one you are currently speaking. So you are seperating your thoughts from your performance like a machine that has boxes of words stored in your mind and you're just pulling them out like a magician pulls a rabbit out of a hat. The same method applies to sight reading music. When you're playing the 2nd measure of a Classical piece...your eyes are reading and your mind is memorizing the 5th and 6th measure. So you are always ahead of yourself.
I have noticed over the years that Rap Music doesn't put much emphasis on the work of harmony. Although over the years some Jazz musicians have recorded Rap albums and included diverse elements that were more directly rooted from instruments themselves and not constant drum machines and samples of other artists pieces. My personal deal is that everytime the 60's and early 70's is represented through all T.V broadcasts, radio, Rap Music, etc.....it is just sooooooo wrong. It's like going on youtube to look up some 60's band that is unknown today perform. A band that most people in the world believe is obscure where in my life during 1967 they were bigger than sliced bread. This sort of representation through the publications industry has been dead wrong since the mid 70's with the promotion of artists like Robin Trower the Hendrix copycat and forming this idealogy for people in life that all of these "Classic Rockers" like Frampton, Rush, and the later Pink Floyd are the cream of the crop for the quote on quote "Classic Rock" generation and even the early 70's generation. This is ridiculous and is insulting. It's like hiding the truth from the younger generations of today who might be interested in investigating the 60's and because they trust in the media they follow the life of Jimi Hendrix and dismiss everyone else that played great guitar in the 60's except for the 3 guys in the Yardbirds. If everyone wants to believe that way fine, but it is not honesty.
At any rate most of the kids I taught who were interested in Rap Music thought immediately that because of my age..that would equal my interest in music to be the usual suspects from the 60's and 70's. It's because they are being educated wrong. The radio used to educate people to "Rock Music" and that concept started to die in 1972 around the time of developing "Stadium Rock' which was cheap and contrived. . How can people ever learn anything when they have falsehood representation from the media? That's why when the local rap student observes that his dad is a Clapton or Rush fan.....that X equals square and the end. They simply define other generations with the representation that the media has for them on a silver platter. What's up with that? Hasn't anyone ever notice the vast quanity of people in society who are brainwashed to believe in this way of thinking?
As much as I dislike most rap, it falls under the definition of music.
I think it's pretty silly (A mild way to put it) to label music that you don't like as not being music. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you can state that it doesn't exist. At least not if you want to be taken seriously.
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Posted: November 11 2011 at 10:59
Rapper El-P Samples Tom Sawyer
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The Dark Elf wrote: