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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=82616 Printed Date: December 04 2024 at 14:28 Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Rapper El-P Samples Tom SawyerPosted By: Catcher10
Subject: Rapper El-P Samples Tom Sawyer
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 23:05
Replies: Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 23:09
Does anybody ever honestly care about these rap samples?
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 23:14
Rappers do......didya read some of the comments, rap fans liked it. And this one at least has a benefit if you buy it.....
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 23:24
Catcher10 wrote:
Rappers do......didya read some of the comments, rap fans liked it. And this one at least has a benefit if you buy it.....
I meant anybody here. I mean, that's nice, I just don't understand why we need a thread every time someone remotely famous samples a song that is listed here. Tom Sawyer has such heavy radio airplay it isn't even famous as a prog song.
Maybe I'm just still vaguely annoyed about the Kanye West endless debacle.
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 23:46
Kanye West must have good music taste. Samples King Crimson and pretty much takes a full Can song and changes the words into something comprehensible (and probably even less thought put into them ).
As for EL-P, look at his name. Must be a proggy!
Posted By: Aussie-Byrd-Brother
Date Posted: November 08 2011 at 23:53
I find it a little depressing that the sampled prog band seems to find it's like a `badge of honour' that a rapper sampled them, like it instantly gives them this special credibility, and it's a monumental achievement! :(
I could care less that Crimson was sampled by a delusional moron like West, it's more an `interesting curious random fact' on a bio page than a career achievement!
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 00:16
I don't think rap artists should get to sample awesome music like prog. You can't spell "crap" without "rap"!
------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want!
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 00:26
stonebeard wrote:
I don't think rap artists should get to sample awesome music like prog. You can't spell "crap" without "rap"!
And you can't spell toilet brush without rush, which is needed to clean the rapper from the crapper. He should have renamed it Tom Sewer.
------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Duos for fave acts
Posted By: ExittheLemming
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 03:23
Logan wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
I don't think rap artists should get to sample awesome music like prog. You can't spell "crap" without "rap"!
And you can't spell toilet brush without rush, which is needed to clean the rapper from the crapper. He should have renamed it Tom Sewer.
That's twice in just a few weeks you've made laugh out loud. I like the cut of yer jib matey
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 08:18
Do you feel that rappers in general mis-represent the music of our generation? For example...the generation of the 60's and 70's? I have noticed in the past how they place importance on Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix, Robin Trower, and Peter Frampton. Four artists who rotate through the media as a representation of what my generation was all about. Which is falsehood and not honesty.....in otherwords apart from the few interesting releases of these people it is just pure crap and a thousand chapters are left out. Rappers come across as if they are under the assumption that the media represents the music we all grew up with and I find that annoying and moronic. Whether rappers are making fun of our music or complimenting it......it remains to be an insult because they don't have a clue about other generations of music historically and how can they when the media promotes all the fringe garbage and dismisses the most important respectful innovative people? Rappers have already fooled with "Classic Rock" samples and now they are using a prog sample of Rush? and of course it would have to be Rush correct? As if to say that everyone in 1976 who had long hair listened to Rush right? How flippin" insulting is that? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....then it must be a duck. How blind and stupied can you be? They should just leave our music alone.
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 08:29
TODDLER have you heard Outkasts cover/sample of Focus, (Focus 3) i don't think a group like Outkast samples 70s music for the fun of it or couse of reddiculing the past music, they very much adore anything from Funcadelics, to Prince,to Kate Bush to, Earth Wind and Fire and probably also Focus, and they did not sample the hit Hocus Pocus or things like that but a more obscure song and made an interesting and very good rap song out of it
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Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 13:40
Henry Plainview wrote:
Does anybody ever honestly care about these rap samples?
------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 13:46
TODDLER wrote:
Whether rappers are making fun of our music or complimenting it......it remains to be an insult because they don't have a clue about other generations of music historically and how can they when the media promotes all the fringe garbage and dismisses the most important respectful innovative people? Rappers have already fooled with "Classic Rock" samples and now they are using a prog sample of Rush? and of course it would have to be Rush correct? As if to say that everyone in 1976 who had long hair listened to Rush right? How flippin" insulting is that? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....then it must be a duck. How blind and stupied can you be? They should just leave our music alone.
what
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you
Posted By: colorofmoney91
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 13:57
I'm too rational to care what's going on in here.
BUT, El-P is one of the more interesting hip-hop producers in business and it kind of seems weak that he would decide to sample Rush instead of be original. He's way better at being original.
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 14:09
Henry Plainview wrote:
TODDLER wrote:
Whether rappers are making fun of our music or complimenting it......it remains to be an insult because they don't have a clue about other generations of music historically and how can they when the media promotes all the fringe garbage and dismisses the most important respectful innovative people? Rappers have already fooled with "Classic Rock" samples and now they are using a prog sample of Rush? and of course it would have to be Rush correct? As if to say that everyone in 1976 who had long hair listened to Rush right? How flippin" insulting is that? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....then it must be a duck. How blind and stupied can you be? They should just leave our music alone.
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 17:18
I have nothing to really say about the rappers (which I use that term loosely) of today, because masters like Grandmaster Flash/Furious Five, Kurtis Blow, SugarHill Gang, George Clinton and Afrika Bambaataa are some of the only true rappers/DJ I know. They created rap from the urban underground scene of NY, Bronx, Baltimore, and LA....scratching on vinyl.
These new artists have only the thought to try and create something from an older popular song and change it somehow with samples and their laptop mixing software........I suspect most of these artists are simply listening for some hook, beat, rhythmn they can attempt to build on and this guy El-P (luv the name BTW) found it in Tom Sawyer.......as it was found in Chic's bass beat of Good Times which is the main beat for Sugar Hill Gangs Rappers Delight.
They simply IMO are looking for a beat which they can build on.........this one happens to be from a progband.
Its a form of music, that's all.
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Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 21:24
Hey look! I stole someone else's song, chopped it into tiny bits, added a drum machine, and mumbled doggerel verse over it!
That must make me a musician!
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 21:41
The Dark Elf wrote:
Hey look! I stole someone else's song, chopped it into tiny bits, added a drum machine, and mumbled doggerel verse over it!
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 21:51
SolarLuna96 wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Hey look! I stole someone else's song, chopped it into tiny bits, added a drum machine, and mumbled doggerel verse over it!
That must make me a musician!
That's not at all what he did...
Really? That's all I heard. Sadly for the rapper, the best parts were whenever he didn't interrupt Rush.
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 22:03
The Dark Elf wrote:
SolarLuna96 wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Hey look! I stole someone else's song, chopped it into tiny bits, added a drum machine, and mumbled doggerel verse over it!
That must make me a musician!
That's not at all what he did...
Really? That's all I heard. Sadly for the rapper, the best parts were whenever he didn't interrupt Rush.
He didn't steal it, for an artist to do this, he needs permission from Rush's record company. Of course he took much of the song out, unless you want him to just copy Rush so they will have a reason to sue him. He made music. He used part of someone else's in his, but he made music nonetheless. If this were a prog band sampling a rapper, you opinion would be much different.
Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 22:04
The Dark Elf wrote:
SolarLuna96 wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Hey look! I stole someone else's song, chopped it into tiny bits, added a drum machine, and mumbled doggerel verse over it!
That must make me a musician!
That's not at all what he did...
Really? That's all I heard. Sadly for the rapper, the best parts were whenever he didn't interrupt Rush.
Somehow I doubt you could do better. I sure couldn't. Look, I don't like rap at all and but get its appeal and I respect it as an art form as good as any other. No need to be a snob about it. That's where the negative stereotypes of prog fans come from.
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 22:23
The Miracle wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
SolarLuna96 wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Hey look! I stole someone else's song, chopped it into tiny bits, added a drum machine, and mumbled doggerel verse over it!
That must make me a musician!
That's not at all what he did...
Really? That's all I heard. Sadly for the rapper, the best parts were whenever he didn't interrupt Rush.
Somehow I doubt you could do better. I sure couldn't. Look, I don't like rap at all and but get its appeal and I respect it as an art form as good as any other. No need to be a snob about it. That's where the negative stereotypes of prog fans come from.
You speak of some generic "prog fan" as if I fit in some neat little demographic. I am a fan of a wide array of music, and I happen to enjoy certain prog bands, not all prog bands.
I don't consider rap to be music. Sorry if that offends your tender sensibilities. If it is "snobbery", I can live with that quite contentedly. I don't really care what might be construed as "negative stereotypes"; as a matter of fact, rap is one big ball of self-perpetuating negative stereotypes. I don't respect it, don't consider it an art form, and if I could live the rest of my life not having that bilge forced on me, so much the better.
Your opinion may differ. C'est la vie.
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 22:49
The Dark Elf wrote:
You speak of some generic "prog fan" as if I fit in some neat little demographic. I am a fan of a wide array of music, and I happen to enjoy certain prog bands, not all prog bands.
I don't consider rap to be music. Sorry if that offends your tender sensibilities. If it is "snobbery", I can live with that quite contentedly. I don't really care what might be construed as "negative stereotypes"; as a matter of fact, rap is one big ball of self-perpetuating negative stereotypes. I don't respect it, don't consider it an art form, and if I could live the rest of my life not having that bilge forced on me, so much the better.
Your opinion may differ. C'est la vie.
I didn't say anything about you or judge you as a person. I said that the kind of attitude you showed in that particular post is the kind that contributes to prog fans in general being stereotyped as elitist. It doesn't offend me in the least. I didn't mean to offend you either. But I think it's close minded to say that it's not music and not art. That's http://www.thefreedictionary.com/elitism" rel="nofollow - elitist and http://www.thefreedictionary.com/snob" rel="nofollow - snobby by definition. I don't know what bilge you're talking about either - if you don't like it, don't listen to it.
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 23:10
The Miracle wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
You speak of some generic "prog fan" as if I fit in some neat little demographic. I am a fan of a wide array of music, and I happen to enjoy certain prog bands, not all prog bands.
I don't consider rap to be music. Sorry if that offends your tender sensibilities. If it is "snobbery", I can live with that quite contentedly. I don't really care what might be construed as "negative stereotypes"; as a matter of fact, rap is one big ball of self-perpetuating negative stereotypes. I don't respect it, don't consider it an art form, and if I could live the rest of my life not having that bilge forced on me, so much the better.
Your opinion may differ. C'est la vie.
I didn't say anything about you or judge you as a person. I said that the kind of attitude you showed in that particular post is the kind that contributes to prog fans in general being stereotyped as elitist. It doesn't offend me in the least. I didn't mean to offend you either. But I think it's close minded to say that it's not music and not art. That's http://www.thefreedictionary.com/elitism" rel="nofollow - elitist and http://www.thefreedictionary.com/snob" rel="nofollow - snobby by definition.
So...wait...you're saying that being unwilling to accept or even recognize mediocrity and offal is...elitist?
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 23:16
The Dark Elf, nobody cares that your personal definition of music is so ludicrously twisted that rap does not fit in it, please stop.
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you
Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 23:19
The Dark Elf wrote:
So...wait...you're saying that being unwilling to accept or even recognize mediocrity and offal is...elitist?
No, there's a difference. It's not about the music at all, it's about your choice of words. Saying "I think it's crap" is different from saying "it's not art and not music". The former is an opinion, to which you are entitled as is everyone else, the latter is elitism. It recalls the nazis, and how they distinguished between good and "degenerate" art.
Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 23:25
Also, by claiming that all rap is "one big ball of self-perpetuating negative stereotypes" it becomes clear to me that you've only really heard what is popular. One of my friends introduced me to some underground rap/hip hop which he enjoys, and not only are the groups musically more interesting than mainstream hip hop/rap artists, but they're also lyrically more interesting, not conforming to the stereotypes which you appear to be assuming all rap conforms to.
Posted By: The Miracle
Date Posted: November 09 2011 at 23:28
^Yes, underground hip hop has a lot of stuff that's worth checking out. I just never really explored it. Perhaps someday I will, when I get my other priorities out of the way...
Posted By: TheMasterMofo
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 10:34
Music, as defined by a dictionary:
an http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/art" rel="nofollow - art of http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sound" rel="nofollow - sound intimethatexpressesideasandemotionsinsignificantformsthroughtheelementsofrhythm,melody,harmony,andcolor.
As much as I dislike most rap, it falls under the definition of music.
I think it's pretty silly (A mild way to put it) to label music that you don't like as not being music. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you can state that it doesn't exist. At least not if you want to be taken seriously.
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 10:38
npjnpj wrote:
It's NOT music!
And please don't ask me what it is then, or I might have to elaborate and probably get banned.
Wow...really?? Its music.....but its music you do not like, but its music.
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Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 10:42
npjnpj wrote:
It's NOT music!
And please don't ask me what it is then, or I might have to elaborate and probably get banned.
/facepalm
Not one of THESE people.
Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 10:54
The Dark Elf wrote:
I don't consider rap to be music.
This is very sad.
npjnpj wrote:
It's NOT music!
And please don't ask me what it is then, or I might have to elaborate and probably get banned.
My definition of "elaborate" must be different from yours.
Here's some non-musicfor you elitist folks:
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 12:01
I cannot make claim to Rap Music being music at all unfortunately due to my experience as a music teacher/instructor. The other side of the spectrum weighs me down and I can't join forces with Rap in giving it that kind of credit. I've seen Rap performed on poetry night at Barnes & Noble and Borders Books. The improvisation aspect to it is amazing. To actually have the ability to perhaps jump ahead of yourself during word thought and improvise rhymes off the top of your head is a very difficult task to perform. As you rap,...you are also thinking of another word that will rhyme with the one you are currently speaking. So you are seperating your thoughts from your performance like a machine that has boxes of words stored in your mind and you're just pulling them out like a magician pulls a rabbit out of a hat. The same method applies to sight reading music. When you're playing the 2nd measure of a Classical piece...your eyes are reading and your mind is memorizing the 5th and 6th measure. So you are always ahead of yourself.
I have noticed over the years that Rap Music doesn't put much emphasis on the work of harmony. Although over the years some Jazz musicians have recorded Rap albums and included diverse elements that were more directly rooted from instruments themselves and not constant drum machines and samples of other artists pieces. My personal deal is that everytime the 60's and early 70's is represented through all T.V broadcasts, radio, Rap Music, etc.....it is just sooooooo wrong. It's like going on youtube to look up some 60's band that is unknown today perform. A band that most people in the world believe is obscure where in my life during 1967 they were bigger than sliced bread. This sort of representation through the publications industry has been dead wrong since the mid 70's with the promotion of artists like Robin Trower the Hendrix copycat and forming this idealogy for people in life that all of these "Classic Rockers" like Frampton, Rush, and the later Pink Floyd are the cream of the crop for the quote on quote "Classic Rock" generation and even the early 70's generation. This is ridiculous and is insulting. It's like hiding the truth from the younger generations of today who might be interested in investigating the 60's and because they trust in the media they follow the life of Jimi Hendrix and dismiss everyone else that played great guitar in the 60's except for the 3 guys in the Yardbirds. If everyone wants to believe that way fine, but it is not honesty.
At any rate most of the kids I taught who were interested in Rap Music thought immediately that because of my age..that would equal my interest in music to be the usual suspects from the 60's and 70's. It's because they are being educated wrong. The radio used to educate people to "Rock Music" and that concept started to die in 1972 around the time of developing "Stadium Rock' which was cheap and contrived. . How can people ever learn anything when they have falsehood representation from the media? That's why when the local rap student observes that his dad is a Clapton or Rush fan.....that X equals square and the end. They simply define other generations with the representation that the media has for them on a silver platter. What's up with that? Hasn't anyone ever notice the vast quanity of people in society who are brainwashed to believe in this way of thinking?
Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 12:27
TODDLER wrote:
I cannot make claim to Rap Music being music at all unfortunately due to my experience as a music teacher/instructor. The other side of the spectrum weighs me down and I can't join forces with Rap in giving it that kind of credit. I've seen Rap performed on poetry night at Barnes & Noble and Borders Books. The improvisation aspect to it is amazing. To actually have the ability to perhaps jump ahead of yourself during word thought and improvise rhymes off the top of your head is a very difficult task to perform. As you rap,...you are also thinking of another word that will rhyme with the one you are currently speaking. So you are seperating your thoughts from your performance like a machine that has boxes of words stored in your mind and you're just pulling them out like a magician pulls a rabbit out of a hat. The same method applies to sight reading music. When you're playing the 2nd measure of a Classical piece...your eyes are reading and your mind is memorizing the 5th and 6th measure. So you are always ahead of yourself.
I have noticed over the years that Rap Music doesn't put much emphasis on the work of harmony. Although over the years some Jazz musicians have recorded Rap albums and included diverse elements that were more directly rooted from instruments themselves and not constant drum machines and samples of other artists pieces. My personal deal is that everytime the 60's and early 70's is represented through all T.V broadcasts, radio, Rap Music, etc.....it is just sooooooo wrong. It's like going on youtube to look up some 60's band that is unknown today perform. A band that most people in the world believe is obscure where in my life during 1967 they were bigger than sliced bread. This sort of representation through the publications industry has been dead wrong since the mid 70's with the promotion of artists like Robin Trower the Hendrix copycat and forming this idealogy for people in life that all of these "Classic Rockers" like Frampton, Rush, and the later Pink Floyd are the cream of the crop for the quote on quote "Classic Rock" generation and even the early 70's generation. This is ridiculous and is insulting. It's like hiding the truth from the younger generations of today who might be interested in investigating the 60's and because they trust in the media they follow the life of Jimi Hendrix and dismiss everyone else that played great guitar in the 60's except for the 3 guys in the Yardbirds. If everyone wants to believe that way fine, but it is not honesty.
At any rate most of the kids I taught who were interested in Rap Music thought immediately that because of my age..that would equal my interest in music to be the usual suspects from the 60's and 70's. It's because they are being educated wrong.The radio used to educate people to "Rock Music" and that concept started to die in 1972 around the time of developing "Stadium Rock' which was cheap and contrived. . How can people ever learn anything when they have falsehood representation from the media? That's why when the local rap student observes that his dad is a Clapton or Rush fan.....that X equals square and the end. They simply define other generations with the representation that the media has for them on a silver platter. What's up with that? Hasn't anyone ever notice the vast quanity of people in society who are brainwashed to believe in this way of thinking?
I frankly can't understand why anyone would expect that from a toddler
Nice post.
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Posted By: TheMasterMofo
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 16:57
TODDLER wrote:
It's like going on youtube to look up some 60's band that is unknown today perform. A band that most people in the world believe is obscure where in my life during 1967 they were bigger than sliced bread. This sort of representation through the publications industry has been dead wrong since the mid 70's with the promotion of artists like Robin Trower the Hendrix copycat and forming this idealogy for people in life that all of these "Classic Rockers" like Frampton, Rush, and the later Pink Floyd are the cream of the crop for the quote on quote "Classic Rock" generation and even the early 70's generation. This is ridiculous and is insulting. It's like hiding the truth from the younger generations of today who might be interested in investigating the 60's and because they trust in the media they follow the life of Jimi Hendrix and dismiss everyone else that played great guitar in the 60's except for the 3 guys in the Yardbirds. If everyone wants to believe that way fine, but it is not honesty.
At any rate most of the kids I taught who were interested in Rap Music thought immediately that because of my age..that would equal my interest in music to be the usual suspects from the 60's and 70's. It's because they are being educated wrong. The radio used to educate people to "Rock Music" and that concept started to die in 1972 around the time of developing "Stadium Rock' which was cheap and contrived. . How can people ever learn anything when they have falsehood representation from the media? That's why when the local rap student observes that his dad is a Clapton or Rush fan.....that X equals square and the end. They simply define other generations with the representation that the media has for them on a silver platter. What's up with that? Hasn't anyone ever notice the vast quanity of people in society who are brainwashed to believe in this way of thinking?
Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with this. Bands like Glass Harp, Focus, Wishbone Ash, etc. were a lot more talented and better than a lot of the popular "Classic rock" but they're pretty much forgotten these days...
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 17:12
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 17:34
TODDLER wrote:
I cannot make claim to Rap Music being music at all unfortunately due to my experience as a music teacher/instructor. The other side of the spectrum weighs me down and I can't join forces with Rap in giving it that kind of credit. I've seen Rap performed on poetry night at Barnes & Noble and Borders Books. The improvisation aspect to it is amazing. To actually have the ability to perhaps jump ahead of yourself during word thought and improvise rhymes off the top of your head is a very difficult task to perform. As you rap,...you are also thinking of another word that will rhyme with the one you are currently speaking. So you are seperating your thoughts from your performance like a machine that has boxes of words stored in your mind and you're just pulling them out like a magician pulls a rabbit out of a hat. The same method applies to sight reading music. When you're playing the 2nd measure of a Classical piece...your eyes are reading and your mind is memorizing the 5th and 6th measure. So you are always ahead of yourself.
I have noticed over the years that Rap Music doesn't put much emphasis on the work of harmony. Although over the years some Jazz musicians have recorded Rap albums and included diverse elements that were more directly rooted from instruments themselves and not constant drum machines and samples of other artists pieces. My personal deal is that everytime the 60's and early 70's is represented through all T.V broadcasts, radio, Rap Music, etc.....it is just sooooooo wrong. It's like going on youtube to look up some 60's band that is unknown today perform. A band that most people in the world believe is obscure where in my life during 1967 they were bigger than sliced bread. This sort of representation through the publications industry has been dead wrong since the mid 70's with the promotion of artists like Robin Trower the Hendrix copycat and forming this idealogy for people in life that all of these "Classic Rockers" like Frampton, Rush, and the later Pink Floyd are the cream of the crop for the quote on quote "Classic Rock" generation and even the early 70's generation. This is ridiculous and is insulting. It's like hiding the truth from the younger generations of today who might be interested in investigating the 60's and because they trust in the media they follow the life of Jimi Hendrix and dismiss everyone else that played great guitar in the 60's except for the 3 guys in the Yardbirds. If everyone wants to believe that way fine, but it is not honesty.
At any rate most of the kids I taught who were interested in Rap Music thought immediately that because of my age..that would equal my interest in music to be the usual suspects from the 60's and 70's. It's because they are being educated wrong. The radio used to educate people to "Rock Music" and that concept started to die in 1972 around the time of developing "Stadium Rock' which was cheap and contrived. . How can people ever learn anything when they have falsehood representation from the media? That's why when the local rap student observes that his dad is a Clapton or Rush fan.....that X equals square and the end. They simply define other generations with the representation that the media has for them on a silver platter. What's up with that? Hasn't anyone ever notice the vast quanity of people in society who are brainwashed to believe in this way of thinking?
That's heavy dude.......but I still think rap music is music, from your first sentence.
Does everyone think Kayo Dot is music? Or maybe better, if we accept Magma's language....why do we not accept rap language?
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Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 17:48
You can say "the rap music I have heard is bad music in my opinion", sure. But arguments that rap music is not music are elitist and the mark of a dinosaur.
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 17:57
Textbook wrote:
You can say "the rap music I have heard is bad music in my opinion", sure. But arguments that rap music is not music are elitist and the mark of a dinosaur.
Or as The Miracle stated............"the negative stereotypes of prog fans ...."
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Posted By: TODDLER
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 18:00
TheMasterMofo wrote:
TODDLER wrote:
It's like going on youtube to look up some 60's band that is unknown today perform. A band that most people in the world believe is obscure where in my life during 1967 they were bigger than sliced bread. This sort of representation through the publications industry has been dead wrong since the mid 70's with the promotion of artists like Robin Trower the Hendrix copycat and forming this idealogy for people in life that all of these "Classic Rockers" like Frampton, Rush, and the later Pink Floyd are the cream of the crop for the quote on quote "Classic Rock" generation and even the early 70's generation. This is ridiculous and is insulting. It's like hiding the truth from the younger generations of today who might be interested in investigating the 60's and because they trust in the media they follow the life of Jimi Hendrix and dismiss everyone else that played great guitar in the 60's except for the 3 guys in the Yardbirds. If everyone wants to believe that way fine, but it is not honesty.
At any rate most of the kids I taught who were interested in Rap Music thought immediately that because of my age..that would equal my interest in music to be the usual suspects from the 60's and 70's. It's because they are being educated wrong. The radio used to educate people to "Rock Music" and that concept started to die in 1972 around the time of developing "Stadium Rock' which was cheap and contrived. . How can people ever learn anything when they have falsehood representation from the media? That's why when the local rap student observes that his dad is a Clapton or Rush fan.....that X equals square and the end. They simply define other generations with the representation that the media has for them on a silver platter. What's up with that? Hasn't anyone ever notice the vast quanity of people in society who are brainwashed to believe in this way of thinking?
Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with this. Bands like Glass Harp, Focus, Wishbone Ash, etc. were a lot more talented and better than a lot of the popular "Classic rock" but they're pretty much forgotten these days...
How true. Also loads of bands I grew up listening to in the 60's who were from America and just HUGE. people today are under the assumption that they were 1 hit wonders or because they haven't gotten the promotion or developing reputation of ...The Doors...they must have NOT been huge or not as popular like Jimi Hendrix or Eric Clapton which is beeeeeeeeeeeep thank you for playing! the wrong answer! These bands I am refering to were on the pre-planned wipe-out list designed by the hippies who took on the role of record executives. Like the story about the hippie that Zappa tells on youtube. The hippie who the old record executives hired to bring them coffee and donuts turned into a consultant and hired more hippies who chopped off their hair, wore business suits and shortened all the songs and wiped out the original 60's list of innovators from ever getting promoted again. Instead they focused on this usual suspects list and the rest is history. Moshkito must know what I'm talking about? He was there when it all went down. He must remember when this happened? Where is Moshkito when you need him? Moshkito! Where are you?
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 21:17
Henry Plainview wrote:
The Dark Elf, nobody cares that your personal definition of music is so ludicrously twisted that rap does not fit in it, please stop.
Being ludicrous never stopped you from voicing your peculiar opinions. And since this forum is based wholly on opinion the last time I checked, I don't feel it necessary to defer to your patented "This is Henry Plainview making a conclusive and inarguable judgment post"(TM).
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 21:25
The Dark Elf wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
The Dark Elf, nobody cares that your personal definition of music is so ludicrously twisted that rap does not fit in it, please stop.
Being ludicrous never stopped you from voicing your peculiar opinions. And since this forum is based wholly on opinion the last time I checked, I don't feel it necessary to defer to your patented "This is Henry Plainview making a conclusive and inarguable judgment post"(TM).
Rap's status as music is a fact, not an opinion, and that is one of the few things I think about music is objective. Any definition of music that manages to exclude rap renders the term completely meaningless.
------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 21:52
Henry Plainview wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
The Dark Elf, nobody cares that your personal definition of music is so ludicrously twisted that rap does not fit in it, please stop.
Being ludicrous never stopped you from voicing your peculiar opinions. And since this forum is based wholly on opinion the last time I checked, I don't feel it necessary to defer to your patented "This is Henry Plainview making a conclusive and inarguable judgment post"(TM).
Rap's status as music is a fact, not an opinion, and that is one of the few things I think about music is objective. Any definition of music that manages to exclude rap renders the term completely meaningless.
Music is art and art is, in and of itself, wholly subjective. What may strike you as art may not effect someone else at all. Is rap "music" in the broadest sense? Yes, I suppose so. Rather like a person can put a single dot of paint on a canvas and call it art.
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: November 10 2011 at 22:22
The Dark Elf wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
The Dark Elf, nobody cares that your personal definition of music is so ludicrously twisted that rap does not fit in it, please stop.
Being ludicrous never stopped you from voicing your peculiar opinions. And since this forum is based wholly on opinion the last time I checked, I don't feel it necessary to defer to your patented "This is Henry Plainview making a conclusive and inarguable judgment post"(TM).
Rap's status as music is a fact, not an opinion, and that is one of the few things I think about music is objective. Any definition of music that manages to exclude rap renders the term completely meaningless.
Music is art and art is, in and of itself, wholly subjective. What may strike you as art may not effect someone else at all. Is rap "music" in the broadest sense? Yes, I suppose so. Rather like a person can put a single dot of paint on a canvas and call it art.
So then music is whatever you want it to be? You can just pick and choose things you want to put in a word what has already been defined?
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 07:27
Even with definitions of music being thrown around: still not convinced. Not convinced either, that there is a universally valid definition of music. How could there be if even prog as subgenre has no definition? My definition is as good as any other, and miles better than those that include rap. It's not music.
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 10:59
So this is why everyone thinks prog fans are pompous snobs...
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 11:01
DisgruntledPorcupine wrote:
So this is why everyone thinks prog fans are pompous snobs...
Does everyone think that? You have asked everyone?
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 11:02
npjnpj wrote:
Even with definitions of music being thrown around: still not convinced. Not convinced either, that there is a universally valid definition of music. How could there be if even prog as subgenre has no definition? My definition is as good as any other, and miles better than those that include rap. It's not music.
Posted By: DisgruntledPorcupine
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 11:04
Snow Dog wrote:
DisgruntledPorcupine wrote:
So this is why everyone thinks prog fans are pompous snobs...
Does everyone think that? You have asked everyone?
I hope you're not being serious. I obviously don't mean EVERYONE, but it is a stereotype in a sense. I really think calling any genre "not music", no matter how much you hate it, is just plain ignorant, and it stretches far beyond just a casual stating of opinion.
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 11 2011 at 11:09
DisgruntledPorcupine wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
DisgruntledPorcupine wrote:
So this is why everyone thinks prog fans are pompous snobs...
Does everyone think that? You have asked everyone?
I hope you're not being serious. I obviously don't mean EVERYONE, but it is a stereotype in a sense. I really think calling any genre "not music", no matter how much you hate it, is just plain ignorant, and it stretches far beyond just a casual stating of opinion.
Oh dear...I was serious I'm afraid. I wasn't even aware that prog fans were considered pompous snobs at all. BUt I support his right to call Rap "not music" fully.
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: November 12 2011 at 00:25
progkidjoel wrote:
AWW YEAH OUT OF TOUCH PROG ELITIST CIRCLE JERK LETS GET IT ONNNNNNNN
This
-------------
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: November 12 2011 at 00:28
I think another thing worth noting is that rap isn't even a genre of music, it's a vocal style. What these luddites means to say isn't music is hip hop
Because, you know, when GonG or Magma raps that's not hip hop, it's still Canterbury scene or zeuhl
Posted By: colorofmoney91
Date Posted: November 12 2011 at 00:29
My mother calls rappers "rappists" and I laugh at her for it because she is dumb.
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: November 12 2011 at 05:22
I think it's incredibly funny to see these older guys here who argued with their out-of-touch parents and grandparents over The Rolling Stones and Frank Zappa become the same fuddy duddy establishment types themselves.
If you geninely, seriously maintain that hip-hop isn't music then stop posting here because you're an evolutionary dead end as far as music is concerned. Because you define yourself by your musical taste, and your personality and intellectual self are so weak that this is central to your being, you can't allow something you don't like to be called music. So why don't you just switch off the internet, live in your hermetic bubble for the rest of your life where you keep yourself going by telling yourself that you know all there is to know about art without ever appreciating its full range, die, and leave the rest of us to evolve.
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: November 12 2011 at 05:29
Isn't the PA forum a hermetic bubble tho?
Posted By: Textbook
Date Posted: November 12 2011 at 05:36
Some want it to be a safe little place where they can desperately try to convince each other that they've *definitely* already heard the best music ever made because it's central to their ego that this be so, but there is a sizable number of people, including you Ro, who do turn myself and others on to new and different things.
Now let's make out.
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: November 12 2011 at 05:40
The track in the OP didn't do much for me though, here is (by far) my favourite rap/rock crossover:
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 12 2011 at 06:17
Textbook wrote:
I think it's incredibly funny to see these older guys here who argued with their out-of-touch parents and grandparents over The Rolling Stones and Frank Zappa become the same fuddy duddy establishment types themselves.
If you geninely, seriously maintain that hip-hop isn't music then stop posting here because you're an evolutionary dead end as far as music is concerned. Because you define yourself by your musical taste, and your personality and intellectual self are so weak that this is central to your being, you can't allow something you don't like to be called music. So why don't you just switch off the internet, live in your hermetic bubble for the rest of your life where you keep yourself going by telling yourself that you know all there is to know about art without ever appreciating its full range, die, and leave the rest of us to evolve.
This is crap. There are other types of music to explore rather than rap. Which i do.
Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: November 12 2011 at 08:53
mu·sic
n.
1. The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre.
2. Vocal or instrumental sounds possessing a degree of melody, harmony, or rhythm.
3.
a. A musical composition.
b. The written or printed score for such a composition.
c. Such scores considered as a group: We keep our music in a stack near the piano.
4. A musical accompaniment.
5. A particular category or kind of music.
6. An aesthetically pleasing or harmonious sound or combination of sounds: the music of the wind in the pines.
[Middle English, from Old French musique, from Latin msica, from Greek mousik (tekhn), (art) of the Muses, feminine of mousikos, of the Muses, from Mousa, Muse; see men-1 in Indo-European roots.]
1. (Music, other) an art form consisting of sequences of sounds in time, esp tones of definite pitch organized melodically, harmonically, rhythmically and according to tone colour
2. (Music, other) such an art form characteristic of a particular people, culture, or tradition Indian musicrock musicbaroque music
3. (Music, other) the sounds so produced, esp by singing or musical instruments
4. (Music, other) written or printed music, such as a score or set of parts
5. any sequence of sounds perceived as pleasing or harmonious
6. (Music, other) Rare a group of musicians the Queen's music
face the musicInformal to confront the consequences of one's actions
music to one's ears something that is very pleasant to hear his news is music to my ears
[via Old French from Latin mūsica, from Greek mousikē (tekhnē) (art) belonging to the Muses, from MousaMuse]
the theory that accent within a musical phrase can also be expressed by modifying the duration of certain notes rather than only by modifying dynamic stress. — agogic, adj.
1. the techniques of choral singing. 2. the composition of music for chorus illustrative of a cognizance of choral techniques and the possibilities and limitations of choral singing. — choralistic, adj.
1. the study of the music of a particular region or people from the viewpoint of its social or cultural implications. 2. the comparative study of the music of more than one such region or people. — ethnomusicologist, n.
1. music in which one voice carries the melody, sometimes with a ehord accompaniment. 2.Obsolete, unison. Also called monody, monophony. — homophonous, adj.
1. the singing of hymns; hymnology. 2. the composition of hymns. 3. a study of hymns and their composers. 4. the preparation of expository material and bibliographies concerning hymns; hymnography. — hymnodist, n.
a juke-box, record-player, or player piano operated by the insertion of a nickel or other coin. See also http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Films" rel="nofollow - films .
1. the composition of music using all seven notes of the diatonic scale in a manner free from classical harmonie restrictions. 2. the music written in this style. — pandiatonic, adj.
the practice of using combinations of notes from two or more keys in writing musical compositions. Also polytonality. — polytonalist, n.— polytonal, adj.
1. the art, practice, or act of singing psalms in worship services. 2. a collection of psalms. — psalmodist, n.— psalmodial, psalmodie, psalmodical, adj.
the artistic use of commonplace, everyday, and contemporary material in opera, especially some 20th-century Italian and French works, as Louise.— verist, n., adj.— veristic, adj.
1. the musical theory and practice of Richard Wagner, characterized by coordination of all musical and dramatic components, use of the leitmotif, and departure from the conventions of earlier Italian opera. 2. influence or imitation of Wagner’s style. — Wagnerian, n., adj.
-Ologies & -Isms. Copyright 2008 The Gale Group, Inc. All rights reserved.
Music
See Also: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Singing" rel="nofollow - SINGING
As music takes up the thread that language drops, so it is where Shakespeare ends that Beethoven began —Sidney Lanier
The band wound up the tune like a train rushing into a station —Donald McCaig
The cello is like a beautiful woman who has not grown older but younger with time, more slender, more supple, more graceful —Pablo Casals
Composing is like making love to the future —Lukas Foss
Composing is like organizing a meal. The different dishes must be so arranged as to rouse the appetite and renew the pleasure with each course —Moses Ibn Ezra
A concert is like a bullfight, the moment of truth —Artur Rubinstein
The conductor … flapped his arms like a rooster about to crow —Katherine Mansfield
Each musician looks like mumps from blowing umpah umpah umps —Ogden Nash
Fiddles tuning up like cats in pain —Harvey Swados
Good music, like land and machines, had no people in sight —Will Weaver
In Weaver’s novel, Red Earth, White Earth, this simile is used to explain a character’s liking for music.
A great burst of music gushed up like a geyser —Mary Lavin
In came a fiddler, and tuned like fifty stomach aches —Charles Dickens
In music as in love, pleasure is the waste product of creation —Igor Stravinsky
It is like eating vanilla ice cream in Paradise, listening to beautiful music —Camille Lemmonnier
Musical as the holes of a flute without the flute —O. Henry
Music as loud as the roar of traffic —Marge Piercy
See Also: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Noise" rel="nofollow - NOISE
The music rushed from the bow [of fiddle] like water from the rock when Moses touched it —Henry Van Dyke
The music enchanted the air … like the south wind, like a warm night, like swelling sails beneath the stars —Erich Maria Remarque
Music is a big sublime instinct, like genius of all kinds —Ouida
Music is a sort of dream architecture which passes in filmy clouds and disappears in nothingness —Percy A. Scholes
Music is auditory intercourse without benefit of orgasm —Aldous Huxley
Music is essentially useless, as life is —George Santayana
Music is like wine … the less people know about it, the sweeter they like it —Robertson Davies
Music is like a fickle, tantalizing mistress; one is rarely happy with her, but it is sheer tormented hell ever to be long away —Robert Traver
Music is … like mathematics, very nearly a world by itself. It contains a whole gamut of experience, from sensuous elements to ultimate intellectual harmonies —George Santayana
Music is not water, but it moves like water; it is not fire, but it soars as warm as the sun —Delmore Schwartz
Music is the arithmetic of sounds as optics is the geometry of light —Claude Debussy
Music, like balm, eases griefs smarting wound —Samuel Pordage
(Drum, drum, drum, the) music like footsteps —T. Coraghessan Boyle
Music may be regarded as a thermometer that makes it possible to register the degree of sensibility of every people, according to the climate in which they live —André Ernest Grétry
Music throbbed like blood —T. Coraghessan Boyle
Music yearning like a god in pain —John Keats
Opera in English makes about as much sense as baseball in Italian —H. L. Mencken
The opera is like a husband with a foreign title: expensive to support, hard to understand, and therefore a supreme social challenge —Cleveland Amory
The orchestra sounds like fifty cats in agony —J. B. Priestly
Our musicians are like big canisters of gas. Light a match too close to them, and they will explode —Yevgeny Svetlanov, New York Times, October 20, 1986
Svetlanov, the Moscow State Symphony conductor, thus described Russian musicians in an article by Bernard Holland.
The plaintive sound of saxophones moaning softly like a man who has just missed a short putt —P. G. Wodehouse
Playing ‘bop’ is like playing ‘scrabble’ with all the vowels missing —Duke Ellington, quoted in New York Herald Tribune, July 9, 1961
Pulled music from his violin as if he were lifting silk from a dressmaker’s table —Pat Conroy
Saxophones wailing like a litter of pigs —Lawrence Durrell
The string section sounded like cats in heat —Mary Hedin
(Wade and Beth could hear) the subterranean thudding of his rock music turned low, like a giant heart beating in a sub-cellar —John D. MacDonald
A symphony must be like the world, it must embrace everything —Gustav Mahler
Mahler’s comment was addressed to Jean Sibelius.
To some people music is like food; to others like medicines; to others like a fan —Arabian Nights
Tuneless and atonal, like the improvised songs of children caught up in frantic play —Robert Silverberg
The written note is like a strait jacket, whereas music like life itself is constant movement, continuous spontaneity, free from restriction —Pablo Casals
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: November 12 2011 at 09:08
Textbook wrote:
I think it's incredibly funny to see these older guys here who argued with their out-of-touch parents and grandparents over The Rolling Stones and Frank Zappa become the same fuddy duddy establishment types themselves.
If you geninely, seriously maintain that hip-hop isn't music then stop posting here because you're an evolutionary dead end as far as music is concerned. Because you define yourself by your musical taste, and your personality and intellectual self are so weak that this is central to your being, you can't allow something you don't like to be called music. So why don't you just switch off the internet, live in your hermetic bubble for the rest of your life where you keep yourself going by telling yourself that you know all there is to know about art without ever appreciating its full range, die, and leave the rest of us to evolve.
Nice....but I still like what The Miracle mentioned before........
THE MIRACLE wrote:
Look, I don't like rap at all and but get its appeal and I respect it as an art form as good as any other. No need to be a snob about it. That's where the negative stereotypes of prog fans come from.
...and also this
progkidjoel wrote:
AWW YEAH OUT OF TOUCH PROG ELITIST CIRCLE JERK LETS GET IT ONNNNNNNN
-------------
Posted By: Luna
Date Posted: November 12 2011 at 09:24
Snow Dog wrote:
Textbook wrote:
I wasn't talking about listening to rap, I was talking about people who say it isn't music.
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: November 12 2011 at 10:00
Some more non-music I've been lied to like and accept as music ()
Gotta love those flutes. And yes, shocking as it may sound, there was a time when the Black Eyed Peas were actually doing good stuff (can't call it music tho ).
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 12 2011 at 10:06
Posted By: The Neck Romancer
Date Posted: November 12 2011 at 10:16
Still music
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: November 12 2011 at 13:31
Textbook wrote:
If you genuinely, seriously maintain that hip-hop isn't music then stop posting here because you're an evolutionary dead end as far as music is concerned. Because you define yourself by your musical taste, and your personality and intellectual self are so weak that this is central to your being, you can't allow something you don't like to be called music. So why don't you just switch off the internet, live in your hermetic bubble for the rest of your life where you keep yourself going by telling yourself that you know all there is to know about art without ever appreciating its full range, die, and leave the rest of us to evolve.
QUOTED FOR MOTHER NON-MUSIC TRUTH
Posted By: Horizons
Date Posted: November 12 2011 at 13:34
Triceratopsoil wrote:
Textbook wrote:
If you genuinely, seriously maintain that hip-hop isn't music then stop posting here because you're an evolutionary dead end as far as music is concerned. Because you define yourself by your musical taste, and your personality and intellectual self are so weak that this is central to your being, you can't allow something you don't like to be called music. So why don't you just switch off the internet, live in your hermetic bubble for the rest of your life where you keep yourself going by telling yourself that you know all there is to know about art without ever appreciating its full range, die, and leave the rest of us to evolve.
QUOTED FOR MOTHER NON-MUSIC TRUTH
------------- Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: November 12 2011 at 14:24
Try this on for size:
------------- -- Frank Swarbrick Belief is not Truth.
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: November 12 2011 at 14:32