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Henry Plainview 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: May 26 2008 Location: Declined Status: Offline Points: 16715 |
 Posted: April 29 2011 at 05:07 |
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It's called a joke. |
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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dfle3
Forum Newbie 
Joined: April 10 2011 Status: Offline Points: 24 |
Posted: April 29 2011 at 04:53 |
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TheGazzardian
So, you Australian? You've heard a Hell of a lot of the Oils, in any case. I don't think I've heard anything after D&D...that album is in my top 5 albums of all time...along with 10 - 1. Generally I tend to regard songs outside of the big 4 on 10-1 as forgettable...but when some years ago I took that record out for another spin, they weren't entirely disposable. Wouldn't strike me as prog though..."Read about it" sounds like a grunge song...every bit as good as "Smells like teen spirit" in my view...well, in the same league in any case. In case you're wondering how I have 10-1 in my top 5 albums of all time yet find the non big 4 songs forgettable...just imagine that your favourite artist released an album with what would turn out to be four of their greatest songs ever...even if the rest of the album was forgettable, you'd still highly rate the album, yeah? D&D is a stronger album...no really forgettable songs and lots of good ones. Red Sails just seems really arty...I like the atmospheric track like Harrisburg and Jimmy Sharman's Boxers. You don't have Bird Noises in your list...I rate that a better EP than Species Deceases..."Wedding Cake Island" is a fave of mine...an instrumental...a la The Shadows...surprisingly, this track has recently been getting airplay on one or two stations with a classic element to their format...here's the You Tube: Years ago a staff guy at a chain store said that "Earth and sun and moon" was the Oils greatest album...dunno...doesn't get radio play here. Haven't really been tempted to check out their post Blue Sky Mining albums (I have that album...it's good). Might be tempted to check out their first two albums...just as curios. They might have had some recognition from hipster/indie stations for those albums, but it's really 10-1 which made their name..might top more than one Greatest Australian Album Of All Time poll. There might be a song off of one of those first two albums which also very rarely gets played on mainstream station with a classic rock element to their format...though I don't think that the song is a bona fide classic...just stations going beyond the usual...which in recent years has been 10-1's "Power and the passion"...that's got my favourite drum solo of all time...but it's been flogged a lot, by various stations. re Pink Floyd as questionable re prog...I can see that point of view. If they are, then they're the Spice Girls of prog (hey, let's not fight!). Dean Assumption: "the words in Wikipedia that you seem to hold so reverently". Some people assume I hold Rolling Stone in the highest esteem because I mentioned them...in the context of someone here saying that prog albums are critically and commercially acclaimed/successful...Rolling Stone would be, in my opinion, one of THE major sources of criticism if you are going to claim that prog is critically acclaimed. But hey, if you want to assume that I revere Rolling Stone... "I only mentioned it because you implied that ELO were a Progressive Rock band period (because Wikipedia tags them as such - as in your "example")" I actually suggested ELO were arguable progressive for their orchestral arrangements...and found some support from Wikipedia...and Wikipedia is a peer reviewed site, so would presumably carry more weight than just my opinion. So, I just find it acceptable (maybe more so than Wikipedia) to regard ELO as progressive...but veering into very commercial prog...so, unless you find that an oxymoron (commercial prog), I think it has some plausibility. The issue I raised about their 4th album, I believe, was where you draw the line between prog and art rock. re labelling...tongue in cheek, it seems to me that "prog" is a useful umbrella term that acts that play both kinds of music (within an album and within a song)... 1) sleepy music 2) jazzy music It seems to me that people here are over eager to exclude anything popular or commercial from the term "prog"...like ELOs hit laden albums. re Proust...the purpose of the person mentioning it was to argue that just as WE can ALL AGREE that Proust IS a greater author than Dan Brown, so to MY taste in music is SUPERIOR to what you think is great...it's science! seventhsojourn "perhaps I should have said progressive rather than prog" Oh God. They're something different? More bloody homework! What's wrong with my "sleepy" /"jazzy" distinction? Can't we just all use that instead? Less confusing, yeah? re VU...I tend to find them easy listening...but with edgy lyrics...not sure I'd see them as being prog in the kind of sense that people here would use that term...I love "The murder mystery"...it's arty...and I don't really hear 'real' prog bands doing that kind of thing. I was expecting more guff and trolling...dreading that...gets boring quickly...can't let this slide though: thellama73 "See? He doesn't like Trout Mask. Ludicrous! " It's that kind of attitude that really bugs me...it says: We ALL KNOW that "Trout mask replica" is a GREAT album. Yuh. 'we' 'all' 'know' that. It's exclusionary...the people who say this seem to believe that them liking that album (or whatever album) marks them out as being some sort of genius...only they, with their rare brilliance, can see the unparalleled genius of that album and only an idiot would disagree. Yuh. One last Midnight Oil song off of Red Sails...I find this a really beautiful track...with the horn (not sure if the live version has it...oh it does)...can't find a studio version...only a live version, with a long chat intro: |
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Pastor Rex Cat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 28 2010 Location: Western Canada Status: Offline Points: 2205 |
Posted: April 20 2011 at 00:21 |
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I finally had a look at the list and your tastes are very much parallel to mine. However there are a few titles I'm not familliar with but interesting nonetheless.
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http://revbookburn.blogspot.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/rexcat http://www.myspace.com/prxcat Greetings! And Welcome to The Global Internet Church of Prog! Hail the Prog and Praise "Bob"! |
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seventhsojourn
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 11 2009 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 4006 |
Posted: April 19 2011 at 16:38 |
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I take on board what Dean has said about Television... perhaps I should have said progressive rather than prog. My bad, although those dual guitars and the modal passage on the title-track of 'Marquee Moon'... hmm maybe a bit prog.
I think the Velvet Underground have a case as a Proto-Prog band although they've been suggested (unsuccessfully) on six previous occasions; if you're interested in any of those discussions I'll post links here. John Cale is already on ProgArchives as a Prog Related artist, while the VU themselves were definitely ahead of their time and a major influence on Krautrock with their raw, hypnotic, trance-like drones. The artistic pop and avant-garde improvisation of the Nico album was a major influence on the likes of Roxy Music (in Crossover here). Talking about his main musical influences, Bryan Ferry is on record as saying that: ‘I’d probably say the Velvet Underground because they represented a kind of art interest I had.’ Then there’s the primitivism of ‘White Light/White Heat’, and the near 18 minutes of white noise on ‘Sister Ray’. Throw in the pop art album covers and the extreme, nihilistic lyrics that deal with taboo subjects…
Midnight Oil – I’ve only heard that song ‘Beds are Burning’ that Stephen mentioned, but I’ll be checking out more of their stuff.
It wasn’t a ‘complaint’ about your list lacking variety, just an observation.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 19 2011 at 15:21 |
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We don't consider Jazz to be Prog - that would be absurd and ridiculous. We consider some Jazz-Rock/Fusion to be Progressive Rock. The key word in both those classifications is the word "Rock".
In 1969/70 Miles Davis recorded "In A Silent Way" and "Bitches Brew" - which are regarded as landmarks of Jazz-Rock/Fusion, hence their inclusion in this site. Since we categorise albums by "Artist" adding those albums meant adding Miles Davis and his entire discography. We cannot dictate which albums people must review and rate (any more than rym can or does), so if they wish to rate "Kind Of Blue" there is little we can do about it, the same would be true if people rated Genesis's 80s Pop Rock albums highly.
The top-100 lists are algorithmically calculated from the ratings of all albums in the database and by all members who review said albums - we cannot be selective on which albums to include or exclude, however, we do exclude Proto Prog and Prog Related in the list on the Front Page because by definition, those are not Prog.
Yes and No.
The Top-100 list is customisable if you go to the Top Prog Albums page and only select the subgenre's you are interested in, so if you wish to construct a personalised Top-100 that excludes JR/F that is possible, for example: >this<
(I do recommend you follow the links I have provided to avoid further unnecessary discussion on this).
I've never read Proust and I don't want to - that level of navel gazing, coupled with philosophy both in general and as an academic discipline are something I'll gladly leave to other people to fret over while I'll read the disposable pulp fiction and comic books for simple pleasure and amusement.
(sorry for using the word "play", I was being perhaps too playful that evening, however other Top-100 Prog sites do exist).
Whatever. He called you a troll - I actually did see that, but I do not believe it was for the reason's you say he did. Of course I may be wrong, but I know Henry slightly better than you do and I don't believe he would call you a Troll because he thought your taste music sucked. (he would simply tell you bluntly that it did).
Those "opinions" were not mine, simply my interpretation of the words in Wikipedia that you seem to hold so reverently. I actually haven't expressed any opinion of ELO, Progressive Rock or Art Rock (your quote here is first time "Art Rock" has been mentioned, so I could not have). Of course I have some doubt in my mind as to what constitutes Prog, everyone does - even after listening to the damn stuff for over 40 years, though I reserve that doubt for some of the more recent "subgenres" of Progressive Rock than I do for the artists from 40 years ago. This is natural and to be expected since the link between the vangard of Prog bands from the 70s and what is being made today is not that clear-cut.
You missed "Face The Music", which Wikipedia also tags as Progressive Rock, bringing the total to 4 from their first 5 albums (according to Wikipedia) - I wasn't being pedantically accurate, but I didn't need to be for the point I was making. As Stephen said in his reply to this - I only mentioned it because you implied that ELO were a Progressive Rock band period (because Wikipedia tags them as such - as in your "example"), I simply pointed out that they were not a Prog Rock band for their whole career even though their music had orchestral "treatments" for their entire career.
I never mentioned "Art Rock" and nor would I - that term has different meanings depending on where and when it is used - Wikipedia used to differentiate this at one time, but it appears now that only the American interpretation is permitted. I do not equate Art Rock as synonymous with Progressive Rock as Allmusic does for example, I believe that they are distinct and separate, (and so does Wikipedia, that's why they have both tags). There are some artists that crossover between the two classifications. On the PA some of these crossovers reside in Crossover Prog (hence the name), some in Eclectic Prog, some in Heavy Prog and some in Prog Related depending upon the ratio of Art Rock to Prog Rock in their albums.
Lucky you are not that kind of person then.
Television - Marquee Moon is a great album, Adventure less great but still a good album. I would classify them as one of the great New Wave/Art Rock bands of the late 70s, (along with Ultravox!, Japan, Magazine, Wire and XTC), but I would not say they were Progressive Rock.
Velvet Underground - I really don't have an opinion on and, like reading Proust, I don't need to. I accept the view of others that they are Proto-Prog and that they are Psychedelic Art Rock in the sense of the phrase "Art Rock" being associated with "Art-School Rock" rather than the sense of the phrase "Art Rock" being associated with "Western Art Music".
Having read back through this tread again, I can't see why you should have such a chip on your shoulder over the Proust example - no one said you have to read Proust it was just given as an analogous illustration, but hey-ho.
Proust BS = how to blow up a simple illustration to the point of absurdity.
I asked a civil question in what I thought was a civil manner, it certainly wasn't intended to suggest you were silly for using your scores.
It was just an observation that your scoring was inconsistant with rym where your list happens to reside, and even so, using base 100 wouldn't rationalise your scoring because you would still need half-points on base 100 for some of your albums, such as Foxtrot for example - 77.5/100. If I wanted to get silly about it I would ask why quarter-points were necessary at all, but I'm not so I won't.
It's your list and you can score it however you like.
Personnally, I don't care for scores and ratings - they only lead to fights and arguments anyway, but some people like them. I prefer just to have the written review.
Likewise. Edited by Dean - April 19 2011 at 15:30 |
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refugee
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: November 20 2006 Location: Greece Status: Offline Points: 7026 |
Posted: April 19 2011 at 14:59 |
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^Very good answer, Stephen.
 dfle3, you miss killer songs in prog. Here’s one, and you can’t even argue against it (for some reason or other I couldn’t hyperlink it): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdIHa8e2cOM  |
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He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing (Peter Hammill) |
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TheGazzardian
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: August 11 2009 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 8677 |
Posted: April 19 2011 at 09:27 |
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Midnight Oil crossed the ocean with "Beds Are Burning" off of Diesel and Dust, honestly that's the only track of theirs you ever really hear here. (Sometimes you hear Blue Sky Mining but its rare). The only albums that are generally available in the brand name record stores nowadays are Diesel and Dust and their greatest hits. However, their individual albums have been here at one time or another, and if you're lucky you can find them used. I've heard: Place Without a Postcard 10, 9, 8... Red Sails in the Sunset Species Deceases Diesel and Dust Blue Sky Mining Earth and Sky and Moon Scream in Blue Breathe Redneck Wonderland 20,000 Watt RSL I think that 10, 9, 8... is at least as proggy as Red Sails (in my personal opinion). Specifically three tracks make me feel this way; Outside World, with it's great atmosphere; Scream in Blue, with it's rocking instrumental opening; and Tin Legs and Tin Mines kind of qualifies in my mind as well although that's more debatable imo.
Interesting how you're beating this Proust thing to the ground. I think you missed the point initially, Proust was brought up because you kept on expounding how prog was less popular "for a reason", the implied conclusion being because it was worse. The Dan Brown / Proust argument was kind of a bad example (since in my mind better-ness is impossible to judge in that sense) but the point that was trying to be made is, more popular is not always better, since Proust is (in the literary world) more respected.Nothing to do with proving one is better than another or any such noise.
His argument is only that music from you "Dead Zone" is played on the radio, when it seemed you were claiming the opposite.
This is a result of the technical limitations of the website software and site policies. SITE POLICY: If a band is included for having a prog album, their entire discography must also be added. Meaning that, since Miles was added for Bitches Brew and/or whatever albums of his are prog (I've never listened to him), Kind of Blue comes along with it. TECHNICAL LIMITATION: Sub-genres are determined on a per-artist basis, not a per-album basis. Miles Davis is here for his jazz/rock fusion work, so unfortunately his entire discography is labelled as jazz/rock fusion. TECHNICAL LIMITATION: The top 100 list is generated algorithmically using a formula that takes the rating of an album, and the number of times an album has been rated, and creates a "weighted average". Kind of Blue has a high "weighted average", and such appears on the list. Since it is not generated by hand, it cannot just be deleted. SOLUTION: Obviously there's been talk for ages that per-album genre tagging would be great, for example for Yes, their days as a Symphonic Prog band didn't really continue into the '80s. That being said, though, the amount of work of evaluating each and every album of every band that comes through here, plus the tens of thousands of albums already in the database, is simply too much for our small team of volunteers to handle. So, for the time being, odd cases like this still occur. Max (the runner of this site) has created two similar websites, metal music archives and jazz music archives, both of which learned a lot from Progarchives. One of the thing they featured from the get-go was per-album genre tagging.
Dean is not saying that nobody called you a troll, he is saying you are mistaken for your reason in assuming people did so. People called you a troll not because your taste in music is different than theirs, but because they thought you were using your list to create an inflammatory reaction in the forum. This has since been proved wrong, so we can happily move on with our lives 
Once again you're missing the point and arguing irrelevant specifics ... Deans argument was only that ELOs entire discography is not considered prog rock, just parts of it, yet their entire discography has orchestral elements, THEREFORE, orchestral elements do not equal prog. Whether the 4th album is prog rock or art rock is irrelevant, and the two genres are often not mutually exclusive. As a side note, the actual definition of "prog" is incredibly difficult to pin down and varies from person to person. There are those who don't even think of Pink Floyd as prog. Everyone is sure on their own definition but there is always an area where things are a little more grey. Once again this is because of the origin of the genre, as well as its development of certain styles and sounds. Does music that "progresses" rock music automatically count as prog? Or does prog just refer to certain styles and sounds that were popularised at various points in its development? Or is it both? Don't ask the question of what is prog here, because 50% of the forum will join in with wildly varying ideas, and the other 50% will go, "oh now not this again!!!" If you're really curious, read the guides on the home page, and then maybe search for some of the old topics here.
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irrelevant
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 07 2010 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 13382 |
Posted: April 19 2011 at 05:54 |
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Wikipedia genre tags can be dangerous: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_for_a_Day
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 18016 |
Posted: April 19 2011 at 02:50 |
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Wait, he isn't a troll? I could have sworn
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dfle3
Forum Newbie
Joined: April 10 2011 Status: Offline Points: 24 |
Posted: April 19 2011 at 02:05 |
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Finally! A relevant reply! It took me freakin' ages finding this post after stumbling upon it the other day and wanting to respond. Loads of guff here. Sheesh. I think it's a safe bet that you've never read Proust...or saw fit to name drop him! (in case you get upset, that's a compliment!). If there have been other relevant replies here, I've missed them due to the guff. Why would you consider Television to be prog? I heard of them in the context of punk music. To me, they don't see punk at all. They've also been described as post-punk...ironic, given that IF they were a punk band, their debut would be one of the FIRST punk albums...so, the irony is in being post-punk at the birth of punk! If I was to guess what genre they were, I'd say art-rock. I came up with my own term..."bohemian rock"...I'd put Patti Smith in that category too. It seems to me that they get labelled "punk" because - I'm guessing - they played with Ramones at CBGBs. By that logic, IF Barbra Streisand had played CBGBs in the time of the Ramones, she'd be labelled "The Godmother of punk"! But you also mention Velvet Underground...again, they seem more art rock to me. What attributes make them "prog" to you? Curious how you know of Midnight Oil...Gazzardian mentioned them too...wondering if they are Australian as a result. What albums by them have you heard of? "Red sails in the sunset" is a great album, and I think if any album by them was to appeal to prog fans, that would be it (people who like rootsy albums might like "Place without a postcard"...which isn't a fave of mine, but it's not without interest). Their greatest albums are commercial FM staples...whatever one of the most played acts where you live is, Midnight Oil would be the equivalent here...loads of songs played, often, from various albums. As for my list lacking variety...it's not that kind of list...if I haven't heard an album, it won't be on my list, that simple. It's not a legitimate complaint to say that my list lacks variety. And if an album that someone loves is in my list, that's not necessarily backing up that person's opinion of the album.
Like most people in this thread you make a lot of really silly assumptions. Theres a way of avoiding doing that. I'm not going to tell you what that is. [sarcasm]Anyway, you sure sound like a sophisticated person...a reader of Proust.[/sarcasm]. Did you notice I didn't buy into the whole "Proust is a greater author than Dan Brown" statement? Do you want to know why? It's because that statement has nothing whatsoever to do with anything whatsoever. I mean, how on Earth did that statement get dragged into this music forum? Like most replies to this thread, it's a complete IRRELEVANCY...something you and the other Proust name dropper have failed to notice. I'm assuming you must have creamed your jeans when you saw Proust mentioned. You just blithely engaged in this total irrelevancy. Why was Proust even mentioned? 1 - Ironically, you two have failed to realise that it is your arrogance and pretentiousness which bugs me. Not content to give an opinion in this thread, you FORCE some special status onto your opinions...it's to establish that you are 'superior'...that your opinion carries more weight than anyone else's opinion here...I didn't buy it with Henry and I'm not buying it with yous two. Your DESIRED response from readers is intended to be "Gosh, they've read Proust/name-dropped Proust, they must REALLY have a superior opinion than me!". BS. 2 - Naively, you've failed to notice the OTHER function of that mention...it serves to 'prove' that yes, not only is the OPs (Saperlipopette!) opinion superior to everyone else's, it's also MORE than an opinion...it's a FACT. BS. Anyway, The Dark Elf, now that you've demonstrated your superiority (i.e. you've name dropped Proust, 'proven' that Proust is superior to Dan Brown and demoted my opinion due to you assuming that I live in the outback {even if true, does that still make you superior?}), what does a 10th dan, Thetan intellectual giant, such as yourself, contribute to this irrelevant debate? How about:
Do you know what kind of statement that is? Clue: it begins with "O". ANYWAY, your 10th dan Thetan observation on the merits of Dan Brown is that he, as a writer of FICTION, relies on DODGY FACTS. Hmm. Maybe you could host a seminar for writers of fiction...tell them that you as someone who recognises Proust's greatness, can thus impart the pearl of wisdom that they should have more FACTS in their fiction. Yuh. Brilliant. Just brilliant. So, thanks for hilarious comment below, which you type with no sense of irony...whatsoever:
Yes, you TheDarkElf, safely ensconsed in your Tower of Superiority, deal with nothing but facts. Yuh. You're just another dude with an opinion...and a superiority complex...and a HELL of a lot of self-delusion. And even the 'thrust' of your 'argument' is an irrelevance...I spoke of the situation here in Australia...how on Earth does what you say have anything to do with anything whatsoever? I mean:
I take it that by your (what I loosely describe as) 'logic', the fact that prog music IS played in the US, contradicts my assertion that it isn't played in Australia, where I live? And therefore, because of this 'contradiction', you 'win' this argument? Seriously dude, WTF? Back to "Kind of blue"... The 'logic' of this forum is that Miles Davis DID make albums that qualify as "prog", yeah? Yet it's said that "Kind of blue" is NOT one of them, yeah? So, the list at this site of the top 100 prog albums of all time isn't that, yeah? It's in effect, the most popular prog albums at this site plus (at least) one jazz album. So, let's be clear, Miles Davis 'legitimate' prog albums aren't popular enough to make your list of top 100 prog albums. But some poster here who may or may not know what they are talking about has a really good excuse why this is so...I mockingly suggested it was because if yous deleted the album from your list it would kill the internet. So why have "Kind of blue" in your list? Reflected glory? To make up the numbers? On the other hand, if jazz is considered prog, then why aren't there a whole lot more jazz albums in your list? It smacks of tokenism having "Kind of blue" in your list. And it's also absurd that a genre that PRECEEDED prog would be viewed here as a kind of prog. If jazz is progressive, then why not take a broom to any detritus in your list and replace them with quality jazz albums? You don't actually have a list of the top 100 prog albums, do you? To which a mod here said:
Sorry, very 'naive' of me to actually want to see a list of actual prog albums. I'll ignore your blah about that guy who was being offensive to me actually being humourous...yuh...sounds plausible...I'd have to read Proust to see your point of view, I suppose. Just as I would to concede that I wasn't called a troll...Henry called me a troll...check it out for yourself...but it's easier to just make up facts to suit your prejudice. Others agreed with them...but you blithely say that:
Henry called me a troll because they think my taste in music sucks. Not that I care. Hard to imagine anyone being able to miss that. But yet, somehow you did. And the others agreeing with them. As for the last part, well, actually, because people disagree with me, they have to invent 'facts' to support their opinions...like the whole Proust BS. This is the reason why so many on your board are bugging me...their arrogance and pretentiousness...and doesn't help that you ignore or miss their comments. Okay, to your actual relevant comments re this thread:
You seem to regard ELOs first three or four albums as prog...Wiki makes it 3. So, you do SEEM to have doubt in your mind as to what constitues prog, yeah? Their fourth is listed as "art rock". "A new world record" is listed as "art rock"...it has loads of radio songs. Not real art rock? If that's right, what % of it is 'real' art rock? If their 4th album is an art rock record and a commercial smash hit album is also art rock, then why would you consider them different genres? Why is one arguably prog and the other one not even art rock...according to your OPINION? If I was the kind of arrogant and pretentious person trolling on these forums, I might question your knowledge of the genres in question and suggest you educate yourself...or read Proust...multiple times. And what's your OPINION on Television and Velvet Underground as prog acts, as someone here has suggested? How many times would I have to read Proust to get a handle on that? ANYWAY, you later ask about my scores for the albums in my list...I don't pretend that scoring albums is an exact science...I write reviews at another site and I score them out of 100. Your site gives stars...whole star increments...so, if I thought an album was a 7/10, I'd have to decide whether to give it 3/5 here or 4/5. This is your way of suggesting I am silly for using my scores? Different sites have different scoring systems. I like to use base 100 to cut that out...but I will use the smallest fractions at times instead of big numbers...4/5 for 8/10 or 80/100. Is that okay with you? Anyway, I appreciate the few people here who didn't bring a whole lot of assumptions and arrogance and pretentiousness to their replies. Thankyou. Sorry if I missed out on your post for all the guff here. Edited by dfle3 - April 19 2011 at 02:18 |
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Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 20 2010 Location: Tomorrowland Status: Online Points: 11649 |
Posted: April 17 2011 at 14:49 |
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I'm so tired of you I don't knowwhere to begin. Just want to say I'm not the one with the complex here.
Excellent point, Dark Elf. Bye dfle3. Your attempts on being humorous stinks. |
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VanVanVan
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 08 2009 Status: Offline Points: 756 |
Posted: April 17 2011 at 14:23 |
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My mistake, I must have misread your initial post as I thought you were talking about the album. Re: the bolded part... I thought I had addressed that in one of my earlier posts but I suppose I can restate: I'm not saying (and I don't think anyone is) that prog cannot be catchy/memorable. The point that myself and others are trying to make is that music doesn't have to be immediately catchy or memorable to be good music, and that much of prog falls into that area. I'm not trying to create exclusive categories of "catchy" and "non-catchy" with prog falling only into the latter. That would be silly .And you do have a lot of great music on your list; I recently got Velvet Underground and Nico and I've been playing it a ton.
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"The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen
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colorofmoney91
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 16 2008 Location: Biosphere Status: Offline Points: 22774 |
Posted: April 17 2011 at 10:38 |
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I'm seeing a lot of that that I consider to be proto-prog, old pre-prog, a touch of RIO, and some generally good music.
Seems like a good list to me. Proto-prog is awesome because it's basically just simpler and more accessible "more progressive than other music" type of stuff. It's a nice mix, and you even include Genesis and Zappa. Way to go!
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13058 |
Posted: April 17 2011 at 10:25 |
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Marcel Proust is certainly a more accomplished writer than Dan Brown, who relies more on sensationalism, dodgy facts and potboiler plots. That is not even a point of conjecture or a matter of "pretentiousness". I, personally, do not care for either author, but I certainly know from reading them which of the authors has literary skill, and which is worthwhile literature for the ages.
And that's the difference between you and I: I can discern different points objectively, whereas your entire line of rhetoric is based on some absurd personal point of reference that shifts like a tide when you can no longer support your ephemeral and nearsighted opinions, because they have no real factual basis. I repeat, no factual basis. Typing opinions like you do, without supporting data or even a real knowledge of the subject, has been pointed out in regards to your limited experience with progressive music,
For instance:
Again, I will refer directly to your comment: "'classic' format stations don't play a lot of this music".
I don't know what "classic station" you listen to in the Outback, but everywhere I've been in the U.S. and Canada, music from your alleged "Dead Zone" is a mainstay and staple on classic format stations. On a daily basis you can hear Yes songs (such as "Roundabout" and "I've Seen All Good People), Jethro Tull ("Aqualung", "Locomotive Breath", "Living in the Past"), ELP ("Karn Evil 9", "Lucky Man"), as well as countless Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Rolling Stones, The Who, Genesis, Deep Purple, Rush, J.Geils, Chicago, Black Sabbath, ELO, Queen, Bad Company, Traffic, Nazareth, Foghat, Humble Pie, The Doobie Brother, Mott the Hoople, Roxy Music, Supertramp, Uriah Heep, David Bowie, et cetera, ad nauseam -- all from you "Dead Zone", all played daily, and all an integral part of the playlist. If you wish, I can supply you playlists from across the North American continent to support my statement.
Therefore, and without equivocation, you are dead wrong. You have no actual supporting data from across the world to support your suppositions. You do not like the music (as you readily admit in the quote found herein), and so make absurd statements which have no foundation whatsoever. Your arguments are built on sand, they are subjective in the extreme, and have little merit in a serious discussion about music. Edited by The Dark Elf - April 17 2011 at 10:30 |
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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seventhsojourn
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 11 2009 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 4006 |
Posted: April 17 2011 at 07:39 |
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Certainly an interesting list but lacking in a bit of variety. If my arithmetic is correct there are 27 artists represented by 62 albums... 9 Pink Floyd, 7 Zappa, 5 each by Genesis and King Crimson. Nothing wrong with that of course but personally I'd have more diversity in a list.
I would always support Velvet Underground and Television as prog, Marquee Moon is a colossal album. I really must check-out Midnight Oil, I've seen them mentioned before so thanks for the reminder. Neutral Milk Hotel also sounds interesting.
I've taken the liberty of posting some videos that I think might be of interest, based on your list:
Hopefully not too ''soporific''
Punk + Prog, SF themed lyrics, the great Bob Calvert, beautiful Simon House violin solo. Absolute diamond!
If you like ITCOTCK this might also appeal:
Some Post-Punk stuff:
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: April 17 2011 at 05:30 |
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Touche! |
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: April 17 2011 at 05:30 |
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I think this is what one does to show support on a forum. ( from years of observation I reckon i got it right) +1
Edited by Snow Dog - April 17 2011 at 05:33 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 17 2011 at 05:27 |
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No one called you a troll because of your taste in music. Just as no one called you a troll because they disagreed with you.
So can we knock this "Troll" thing on the head now?
On behalf of every member of the PA I hear by officially apologise that the word "Troll" was used when referring to anything you every wrote, said or implied or to the attitude and intent with which you said it, or your reasons for coming here, or in regard to any assumptions that you or anyone may have made as a result of anything posted in this thread. We made a rash assumption based on some comments in your OP that were perceived to be a deliberate attempt to provoke a reaction, that has proven to be an error since it is apparent from your responses you really do believe the things you say.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 17 2011 at 04:47 |
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You must bear in mind that bands change direction through their career and the tags used by Wikipedia can apply to part of that time-span, not all of it. ELO started as a side project from The Move and their first three or four albums were regarded as Prog Rock (you can check this on Wikipedia) but by the time they had achieved mega-stardom in the USA with Eldorado the Prog tag had all but disapeared, so later albums such as New World Record, Out Of The Blue, Discovery, (Xanadu), etc are not regarded as Prog Rock by anyone, including Wikipedia.
It was not the use of orchestration that made their albums Prog or Not Prog, since all of their later albums are more heavily orchestrated than their eariler ones.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: April 17 2011 at 04:22 |
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I don't think anybody said prog shouldn't be catchy or memorable, just that it need not be appealing the very first time you hear it. I would say that even some of the better pop music I like did not appeal that strongly the very first time I heard it but I later on came to love it. Music that challenges norms may not be INSTANTLY appealing but provide enjoyment given some persistence. If anybody said prog need not be at all memorable or appealing because that is what 'real' music is all about, I would heartily join you in slamming that as elitism. Because unless one is himself a composer or musician, I cannot see what would be interesting from a listener's perspective about music that lacks any quality whatsoever that makes it enjoyable to listen to. Edited by rogerthat - April 17 2011 at 04:32 |
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dfle3 wrote: