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Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66262
Posted: October 07 2010 at 17:01
Oh, OK. Katy Perry filmed a part for Sesame Street, but it was deemed that she was dressed too inappropriately for 3 - 6 year olds so it ended up being cut from the show. The video is on YouTube, so that is what I was linking to, and referring to.
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
Posted: October 07 2010 at 15:07
ShipOfFools wrote:
Textbook wrote:
SOF: What the hell is that supposed to mean? What are you saying about Kanye West fans?
Just that Kayne West fans probably don't have an extended knowledge of all different genres of music, like prog rock fans do. And admit it, anyone who listens to Kayne West has some sh*tty taste in music.
Opinion, and I actually enjoy some of his music. So I guess I have sh*tty taste in music then?
If you want a good rap artist, look up Missy Elliot or Nas. Or Tupac. Don't look to Kayne, because he's nothing but a fad. If Autotune didn't exist, he wouldn't even be able to perform live.
Opinion.
Guys really need to get over this "hip-hop fans/artists are sub-human" mentality you have. Don't tell me you don't have it, it oozes out of you when you write about it.
For instance, some guy in another thread was shocked that Kanye even knew of King Crimson which just betrays a complete lack of understanding of what being a samples based producer entails. Samples based hip-hop producers necessarily dig in the crates and listen to a bewildering variety of obscure and old music, precisely to hunt down those samples. Anyone who's serious about doing it professionally almost certainly has a more eclectic record collection and probably more knowledge than you.
I don't have a 'hip hop fans/artists are sub-human' thing going on. I listen to some artists in that genre, and I like what I hear.
But the issue is that Kayne West is NOT a good hip hop artist. Sure, he's popular, but for what? Singing a song about being an a****le? Getting on the cover of Rolling Stone, with a crown of thorns around his head like Jesus Christ?
You make it sound like he should be reviled because he's popular. He's one of the few mainstream rap artists today that still uses samples from older music as liberally as he does. I personally respect that.
It's not the fact that a rap artist sampled King Crimson. It's that Kayne did. I dislike him immensely, and I don't like the idea of him bringing his fans here.
Glad to know only people who you think have qualified enough tastes are allowed to visit this website.
Although I think some prog snobs also have it against some current pop acts. If I admit that I like Christina Aguilera or Katy Perry on this forum (which I am a fan of both of them), I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of people discounted my opinion.
At the end of the day, it's all music to me. I dislike Kayne, but I suppose his fans are entitled to their tastes in music. All I know is I won't be listening to it.
You're entitled to dislike Kanye. I think he's definitely not someone to look up to as a person, but I respect him as an artist. So I can understand where you're coming from and agree with you in the last 2 statements here.
Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898
Posted: October 07 2010 at 10:11
I can't find it. Could someone link it not that I really think that I want to hear this mutilation.After hearing it I will have Thraak on standby in order to recover from the ordeal.
Edited by Vibrationbaby - October 07 2010 at 10:16
Joined: September 23 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 107
Posted: October 07 2010 at 08:36
Textbook wrote:
SOF: What the hell is that supposed to mean? What are you saying about Kanye West fans?
Just that Kayne West fans probably don't have an extended knowledge of all different genres of music, like prog rock fans do. And admit it, anyone who listens to Kayne West has some sh*tty taste in music.
If you want a good rap artist, look up Missy Elliot or Nas. Or Tupac. Don't look to Kayne, because he's nothing but a fad. If Autotune didn't exist, he wouldn't even be able to perform live.
Guys really need to get over this "hip-hop fans/artists are sub-human" mentality you have. Don't tell me you don't have it, it oozes out of you when you write about it.
For instance, some guy in another thread was shocked that Kanye even knew of King Crimson which just betrays a complete lack of understanding of what being a samples based producer entails. Samples based hip-hop producers necessarily dig in the crates and listen to a bewildering variety of obscure and old music, precisely to hunt down those samples. Anyone who's serious about doing it professionally almost certainly has a more eclectic record collection and probably more knowledge than you.
I don't have a 'hip hop fans/artists are sub-human' thing going on. I listen to some artists in that genre, and I like what I hear.
But the issue is that Kayne West is NOT a good hip hop artist. Sure, he's popular, but for what? Singing a song about being an a****le? Getting on the cover of Rolling Stone, with a crown of thorns around his head like Jesus Christ?
It's not the fact that a rap artist sampled King Crimson. It's that Kayne did. I dislike him immensely, and I don't like the idea of him bringing his fans here.
Although I think some prog snobs also have it against some current pop acts. If I admit that I like Christina Aguilera or Katy Perry on this forum (which I am a fan of both of them), I wouldn't be surprised if a bunch of people discounted my opinion.
At the end of the day, it's all music to me. I dislike Kayne, but I suppose his fans are entitled to their tastes in music. All I know is I won't be listening to it.
"Better than a thousand hollow words is one word that brings peace" - Buddha
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
Posted: October 07 2010 at 02:03
Well, I've debated with you over Pink Floyd and now over Hip-Hop, and all I can really say is that you seem to have a very simple-minded, limited view of music and art. You are obviously making broad definitions about complex subjects, and seem to ignore any alternate schools of thought that may be presented to you. Just like in this case, I never said Classical music wasn't more complex than Hip-Hop. What I said was that it was wrong to compare the two, since they aren't attempting to reach the same goals or focus on the same musical aspects. They are so different, it simply isn't fair to compare two separate things that have nothing in common. Apparently you either misunderstood that, or intentionally dodged addressing it.
If this is how you really want to look at music, then nobody else can change that. But if you choose to continue being this narrow-minded, you need to prepare yourself for the plethora of criticisms that will ultimately come your way. On top of all of this, and something I think you have actually admitted to in a way, is that complexity does not equal quality. So the whole classical music comparison once again becomes pointless the moment you include that perspective in the debate. I'm not pissed at you; I just feel a little sorry for you, because you are choosing to shut out anything you think isn't 'worthy' of experiencing. Maybe you'll grow out of that. I hope you will. In the meantime, don't be surprised if we are to butt heads again in the future. All I ask is that you don't take it personally.
Before I drop it entirely, though, consider this: the point you made about a capable musician being able to emulate what he hears on a Hip-Hop record is a pretty weak one, in my view. Because if a musician is capable of doing that in the first place, he would also be able to emulate what he heard on a rock record, jazz record, disco record, etc. fairly quickly. He may not be able to recreate all of them equally as well, but that's beside the point; a musician with a trained ear can pick out almost anything if he is educated enough in proper music theory. That says nothing about the quality of the music he may have used to demonstrate that ability. And classical music is more than just a band of musicians with rock instruments. It's often comprised of full orchestras with so many different types of instruments, it's virtually impossible to dissect it all without seeing it on paper. So it's not as much about complexity from a technical standpoint as it is about density and volume.
Finally, plenty of musicians that play 'real' music listen to and have been inspired by Rap music. Mike Portnoy, Mike Akerfeldt and Steve Wilson being among them. To paint the musical world with the broad brush that you do is only causing you to miss out on a lot of potentially joyous listening experiences. You seem more concerned with upholding a reputation than with finding good music with which to enhance your life. Of those choices, I will always be more concerned with the latter. Maybe one day you will be, too. Until then, your musical enjoyment will always be, to a certain extent, limited. Because the world isn't black and white, and unless you venture out into unknown territory, you'll never completely understand that, I don't think. Now, I'm not trying to sound like some know-it-all who has all the answers. I don't. But I'll be damned if I'm going to let a few sh*tty Pop artists who think they are rappers taint my opinion of an entire genre of music. And neither should you.
Joined: January 20 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 1601
Posted: October 07 2010 at 01:17
JLocke wrote:
himtroy wrote:
I've heard Public Enemy...its not bad. But still, saying that it's as involved as say Baroque music, Prog rock, or something like 20th century music makes it pretty obvious that people haven't ever played an instrument. It's like a lot of electronic music....you like what you like, but it's obviously not as involved. Rap fails to focus on melody and chords as much as it could. As has already been said, there's certainly a lot of rap that is much better than the garbage everyone hears (that can be said of any genre). But it amazes me that some people can't see WHY people don't have as much respect for it as an artistic output as they do for things like prog rock master pieces, classical music (as in the umbrella term for classical period, baroque, and 20th century music), or jazz. It's simply not very complex.
I understand that music is about feel, not complexity. But theres just too much damn rap that sounds exactly like other rap. The fact that the lyrics worry way to much about being badass and not being about anything also gets to me, though thats not the case in better rap groups/artists.
First of all, Prog Rock isn't as 'involved' as Baroque music, either. So grouping all those other genres together and pitting them against Rap isn't fair, I don't think. Hip-Hop is different from Rock music, the same way Rock is different than Orchestral music. Since these particular genres feature entirely different approaches to making music (the types of instruments used, the primary focus being either melody, complexity, etc.), I don't even think we should be looking at them all in the same light.
Just because Hip-Hop music may not sound involved to you doesn't mean it isn't involved. It's just that the artists themselves are focusing more on the production side of things than anything else. And while I will grant you the point that most radio-aired Rap is junk, the fact of the matter is that radio-aired Rock music is typically a poor representation of the genre as a whole, also. Being a Rock fan, I think you will realize that.
Beyond that, all i can really say is this: All Rap typically sounds the same to you because you don't listen to it enough. Just like extreme Metal music all sounds alike to an outsider of that particular style, or just like Jazz all sounded like noise to those unfamiliar with it during its uprising. If you aren't terribly familiar with something, especially when it comes to something as subjective as art, you're not going to understand it.
I still really don't agree that much rap/hip hop has very much musical complexity. As has been said, music is about feel so people like whatever they like and thats fine, but musical involvement wise it's very boring in my mind. I feel like any musician with a half decent ear could listen to something on these albums and be able to play back the melodies. Obviously without the tones and whatnot, but non the less. Whereas if I take something like one of Bach's symphonies it would take an absurd amount of time analyzing it to even begin being able to touch it (and then technical ability would still be a problem).
This is me saying how I feel about it, so don't get pissed at me. But I just really don't see how it can be denied that stuff like Bach and Il Ballleto Di Bronzo-Ys (happened to be whats on, you could substitute with any of the overly complex prog works) actually DOES have more musical complexity and intricacy to respect. It doesn't imply that one should like it more than rap if thats what they want to listen to, but it's ridiculous when rap/hip hop fans try to play it down and not understand where certain people are coming from by not having much respect for rap. As I've said, I think it's incredibly ignorant to say rap/hip hop isn't music, but I also completely see where people are coming from by not taking it as seriously as they do classical music/the more involved prog (since thats really the main discussion here, prog fans and rap fans disagreeing).
Edit: And I definitely agree that the rock that gets publicized is equally as bad as the rap that does. In fact the radio/popular music scene in general is pretty much just painful.
Edited by himtroy - October 07 2010 at 01:23
Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell?
I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance.
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
Posted: October 06 2010 at 22:58
Actually a lot of people forget that Public Enemy often played and mixed their tracks live, rather than splicing/dubbing/layering it together, the easier and thus more popular method.. It's why they sound so raw and devestating compared to a lot of other production of the day.
Anyway, check it out. Devestating lyric (listen all the way through) and imo at least, a fantastic beat.
Also it's not really hip-hop but in terms of brilliant music through sampling, we're all forgetting this:
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
Posted: October 06 2010 at 22:28
thellama73 wrote:
JLocke wrote:
Well, I will say that anybody who thinks sample-based music composition is somehow lacking in artistic integrity or complexity, that album will most likely change that person's mind.
I don't think that. I was working in a record store when the last Girltalk album came out and heard it a lot. I thought it was quite entertaining.
Well, in truth, I wasn't really referring to you in that statement. I was referring more so to himtroy.
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
Posted: October 06 2010 at 22:27
JLocke wrote:
Well, I will say that anybody who thinks sample-based music composition is somehow lacking in artistic integrity or complexity, that album will most likely change that person's mind.
I don't think that. I was working in a record store when the last Girltalk album came out and heard it a lot. I thought it was quite entertaining.
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