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lynton samuel View Drop Down
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Points: 183 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2005 at 07:45
I took i brief look at the list, and noticed that Porcupine Tree's latest, Deadwing, is on 51st place.
Seriously, I love PT, but Deadwing does not belong in top 100. All their previous albums are better.

As mentioned before in this thread, the list contains the albums that are reviewed the most times, therefore they are probably the most popular ones, not the best.

This proves my point. Deadwing is PT's most accessible album yet, hence the 51st place.
It's not because it's their best.

I think this is applies to many of the albums in the top 100 list.
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Points: 295 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2005 at 07:16
I don't know if it's technically possible but here's an idea:

The site's administrators could add a "Special Recommendation"-option to the regular rating buttons (1 - 5 stars). This "SR"-option should be used when you, the reviewer, think an album by a relatively unknown band or artist should appear in the headlight of the public's eye. This could lead to a second top-list, e.g. an "independent top 30 list" featuring albums ignored by most.

Example:

Artist: John Arch.
Album: "A Twist of Fate"
Personal rating: **** (4 stars)
Special Recommendation yes/no: Yes.

Just an idea. I think this could be interesting.

Edited by Miaugion
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BaldJean View Drop Down
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2005 at 06:26

Some argued the top 100 list was "helpful". Somehow I fail to see how it is helpful when it only consists of stuff everyone already knows by heart.

Here is my own personal top 50, in arbitrary order; the one that is listed first is not necessarily my ultra-favorite. Also be aware that these top 50 could be a completely different list on another day. And I will only allow myself 1 album per artist only.

1.   Clearlight - Symphony
2.   Gong - You
3.   Magma - Live
4.   Henry Cow - Western Culture
5.   Van der Graaf Generator - Vital
6.   Guru Guru - Känguru
7.   Ash Ra Tempel - Join Inn
8.   Soft Machine - Third
9.   Roman Bunka Band - Dein Kopf ist ein schlafendes Auto
10. Froese, Edgar - Epsilon in Malaysian Pale
11. Klaus Schulze - Timedance
12. Genesis - The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (surprise, surprise )
13. Embryo - Embryo's Reise
14. Matching Mole - Little Red Record
15. 801 - Live
16. Gentle Giant - Octopus
17. Gryphon - Red Queen To Gryphon Three
18. Kraan - Live
19. Hammill, Peter - The Fall Of The House Of Usher
20. Tangerine Dream - Alpha Centauri
21. Blegvad, Peter and Greaves, John - Kew / Rhone
22. King Crimson - Lizard
23. Art Bears - Winter Songs
24. Amon Düül 2 - Tanz der Lemminge
25. Aera - Live
26. Jon Anderson - Olias of Sunhillow
27. High Tide - Sea Shanties
28. Brand X - Unorthodox Behaviour
29. Can - Tago Mago
30. Captain Beyond - Captain Beyond
31. Dzyan - Electric Silence
32. Catapilla - Catapilla
33. Faust - Faust
34. Hillage, Steve - Live Herald
35. Hawkwind - Warrior On The Edge Of Time
36. Annexus Quam - Osmose
37. Yatha Sidra- A Meditation Mass
38. Hoelderlin - Of Clowns and Clouds
39. Hatfield and the North - Hatfield and the North
40. Mother Gong - Fairy Tales
41. Schnitzler, Conrad - Con
42. Schoener, Eberhard - Bali Agung
43. Popol Vuh - In den Gärten Pharaos
44. Planet Gong - Live Floating Anarchy
45. Focus - Moving Waves
46. Fripp, Robert - Exposure (I prefer the vinyl version, it has a better version of "Disengaged"
47. Eno, Brian - Another Green World
48. Univers Zero - Ceux Du Dehors
49. Khan - Space Shanties
50. Azachel - Arzachel

As I said, on another day it might be a completely different list. The absence of bands like Camel, Kansas, Dream Theater or any Neo-Prog has some significance though; just not my cup of tea.

I just noticed I forgot an all time favorite, which should definitely be listed in the prog database:

51. Nik Turner's Sphynx - Xitintoday

Xitintoday -- album cover

It features Nik Turner, Steve Hillage, Mike Howlett, Miquette Giraudy, Tim Blake, Alan Powell, Morris Pert (among others). Highly recommended!!!



Edited by BaldJean


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Cluster One View Drop Down
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Points: 780 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2005 at 03:17
The best thing about this site is that you are allowed to make your own 'Top 100' should you so desire. You choose which 100 albums you like, and then go out and buy/download them...

The Top 100 List is merely a tool, for the 'newer' and 'older' fan alike. To give them an idea on what is typically popular in the genre, and where to start next in terms of investigating new (old?) music...

There are over 7500+ albums listed on this site, and growing daily. Hugues Chantraine comes closest but for someone to have actually listened to ALL these albums, and then objectively categorized and properly ranked them from 'best to worst' (which is always subjective) is ultimately impossible.

Don't criticize, use the list as a tool, not as doctrine. Or better yet, get off yer rusty dusty and review some albums yourself and help contribute to the database/listings.

IMHO the list has been tweaked and experimented with much in the past, and I quite appreciate the end result / current method of determing a (notice I said A and not THE) Top 100. Except for the presence of all those DT albums, of course


Edited by Cluster One
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DallasBryan View Drop Down
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Points: 3323 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2005 at 02:58
my top 100 is a much better yardstick, excuse me!
I think we are waking up to the fact that the US had
the best guitarists, the Germans had the best
keyboardist and the English created the best lyrics!
Slowly we are maturing to see that the world's
musicians are not braindead outside of the US and
UK. But that the US and UK listeners are deaf to the
WORLD! Takes time but once you break the media
barrier you will find a new world!

Bald angels, cast out to hell.
Bald angels, how deep we fell!
Bald angels, oh what a fall!
Bald angels, love conquers all.

BaldJean I am able to come to your defense,
krauthead we have worked long for your presence!
Dont be dismayed by the agressive english
banishment, this forum is opening up to ALL!

Edited by DallasBryan
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bluetailfly View Drop Down
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Points: 1383 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2005 at 22:14
Originally posted by Poxx Poxx wrote:

These band defined the genre.. blah blah they are the best of the genre blah blah ELP are good... blah blah.

Hogwash.

The reason for the top 100 consisting of albums from a select few bands, is simple. People don't know that many albums, nor have they listened to enough albums to review albums relatively relatively. Relativity is the key when making a top 100. You don't have to know all albums in prog-rock to know that 'The Snow Goose' is a masterpiece, but you have to know a great deal when composing a top 100.

Conclusion: The top 100 list doesn't represent the top 100 albums of the genre, but are based on this site's reviewer's rating, and amount of ratings.

Who said it represnted the top 100 in the genre? Who is suffering that delusion? Nobody. But the list is a pretty good indication of what are the best albums in the genre based on a large group of serious fans who vote by rating them. To me, that's a pretty darn good system, and it produces valuable information, imo.

Collectively, we know a lot of albums. Just because BSS is #23 (or whatever) doesn't mean it's worse than Red, but it means that it's probably a pretty damn good album. The fact that it's in the top 100 means its a pretty damn good album.

And ELP are good (no blah blah necessary). So you just...you know... don't go around badmouthing them, mister! 

"The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle."
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krauthead View Drop Down
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Points: 509 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2005 at 21:21

My last post on this topic i hope 

The most of the top 100 list is very great albums and I have the most of them (the ones i like) and I have many other albums so I don't think more than 3-5 on that list will end up on my own top 100 list of progressive rock albums though the ones on the list here are the classics of the genre.

It's all about the taste, I dislike Neo Prog and Prog Metal though I can see why others love it... it's all about the taste

 

Peace, Love & Understanding 

*Dancing madly backwards on a sea of air* - Captain Beyond
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krauthead View Drop Down
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Points: 509 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2005 at 21:02
Originally posted by Poxx Poxx wrote:

Originally posted by AcdcFan411 AcdcFan411 wrote:

U guys dont know the meaning of a great band, the best band is ac dc

Top Ten Ac/Dc cds

1Jailbreak

2Razors edge

3 DirtyDeedsDoneDirtCheap

4 ACDC Live

5 Let There Be Rock

6 Stiff upper lip

7 Sattilite blues

8 High Voltage

9 Back In Black

10 Powerage

Haha.

1. This thread is about the top 100 prog album list featured on this site, not the "post your top 10 albums by AC/DC".

2. AC/DC suck.

3. It's "'74 Jailbreak". This is important, for the sake of not confusing it with Thin Lizzy's 'Jailbreak', which is actually a decent hard rock record.

 

LOL!

Nice to see that some in here don't need a hearing aid 

Thin Lizzy - Jailbreak is a good rocker imo and it's beat all ACDC anyday 

*Dancing madly backwards on a sea of air* - Captain Beyond
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Poxx View Drop Down
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Points: 231 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2005 at 20:59

Originally posted by AcdcFan411 AcdcFan411 wrote:

U guys dont know the meaning of a great band, the best band is ac dc

Top Ten Ac/Dc cds

1Jailbreak

2Razors edge

3 DirtyDeedsDoneDirtCheap

4 ACDC Live

5 Let There Be Rock

6 Stiff upper lip

7 Sattilite blues

8 High Voltage

9 Back In Black

10 Powerage

Haha.

1. This thread is about the top 100 prog album list featured on this site, not the "post your top 10 albums by AC/DC".

2. AC/DC suck.

3. It's "'74 Jailbreak". This is important, for the sake of not confusing it with Thin Lizzy's 'Jailbreak', which is actually a decent hard rock record.
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krauthead View Drop Down
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Points: 509 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2005 at 20:55

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Nice to see someone knows Guru Guru and Embryo. And Captain Beyond too.

 

Yeah 

*Dancing madly backwards on a sea of air* - Captain Beyond
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Fitzcarraldo View Drop Down
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Points: 1835 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2005 at 20:54
Originally posted by gdub411 gdub411 wrote:

Okay...you kiddies need another lesson. The Top 100 list is based on number of reviews that were given to that band....nothing else....take Piper At the Gates of Dawn(rated at 31) has a 3.99 rating whereas In the Land of Grey and Pink(rated at 50) has a 4.61...

ALL THE LIST IS IS THE 100 ALBUMS THAT HAVE BEEN REVIEWED THE MOST!

End of lesson.

Sorry, gdub411, but that's not correct. The Top 100 is based on both the number of ratings per album AND the value of each rating for an album. See the following thread for a detailed explanation:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4038

particularly my two very long posts on the 3rd and 4th pages of that thread. That thread also should hopefully make it clear why just using the arithmetic mean alone is not a good way of ranking albums. The current algorithm takes into account how many people like/dislike an album and by how much they like/dislike it.

This topic is perennial. Hell will freeze over on the day every Prog fan independently comes up with an identical list of Top 100 albums. I suppose the fun is in the discussion. It's all subjective at the end of the day: one man's meat is another man's poison.

 
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BaldJean View Drop Down
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2005 at 20:51
Nice to see someone knows Guru Guru and Embryo. And Captain Beyond too.


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krauthead View Drop Down
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Points: 509 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2005 at 20:40

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I disagree in the case of Bob Marley; he is overrated. And I happen to prefer Beethoven to Mozart (though I have nothing against Mozart; he just isn't my favorite classical composer. But he wrote my favorite opera, "Don Giovanni"). As to my personal top 5 in Prog: I don't even know if I have any, but I think if pressed  I'd would certainly put Gong among them. Probably Magma too, and Embryo (a band no-one ever lists). Peter Hammill (including VdGG), and Guru Guru. Or possibly King Crimson.

As to Genesis: They certainly defined the genre, but on the whole they are a little too tame to be rated at the very top. I respect them and even like them, but not absolutely top.

Both Embryo and Guru Guru is at my top 5  :)

And to me Genesis ain't bad at all but nothing like Yes, King Crimson & Pink Floyd to name a few.
*Dancing madly backwards on a sea of air* - Captain Beyond
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BaldJean View Drop Down
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2005 at 20:35
Originally posted by dalt99 dalt99 wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I stated that from being the most popular you can't derive they are the best, and I'll stick with that. And it is certainly true in many cases that bands are simply overrated by the majority. My personal opinion is that about 10-20% of what is very popular also is very good, compared with the unpopular stuff. But mere popularity of a certain band or album says absolutely nothing about the quality.

I respectfully disagree with you. I would like you to tell me who YOU think are the top 5 best progressive rock artists in YOUR opinion.

Also, you have not commented on my view that all the artists that I mentioned (Genesis, Miles Davis, Mozart, Bob Marley, etc.) are very good. Do you disagree? I doubt you do, which is why your argument fails to hold up.

I disagree in the case of Bob Marley; he is overrated. And I happen to prefer Beethoven to Mozart (though I have nothing against Mozart; he just isn't my favorite classical composer. But he wrote my favorite opera, "Don Giovanni"). As to my personal top 5 in Prog: I don't even know if I have any, but I think if pressed  I would certainly put Gong among them. Probably Magma too, and Embryo (a band no-one ever lists). Peter Hammill (including VdGG), and Guru Guru. Or possibly King Crimson.

As to Genesis: They certainly defined the genre, but on the whole they are a little too tame to be rated at the very top. I respect them and even like them, but not absolutely top.



Edited by BaldJean


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2005 at 20:31
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by flowerchild flowerchild wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I stated that from being the most popular you can't derive they are the best, and I'll stick with that. And it is certainly true in many cases that bands are simply overrated by the majority. My personal opinion is that about 10-20% of what is very popular also is very good, compared with the unpopular stuff. But mere popularity of a certain band or album says absolutely nothing about the quality.

Well, in prog it does. 'cause prog is a genre of music that is NOT regarded as popular!!!

That's neither true for prog nor is it true for any other genre of music (or, for that matter, art or cinema or literature or whatever).

Personal preference plays a big role, of course. I have a certain dislike for bands tht are too willinglky pleasing for the ear. I already quoted the Japanese tea-master Kobori Enshu before and do it again here:  "I used to praise the artist because he created what I liked. Now I praise myself because I like what the artist has chosen for me." What Kobori Enshu wants to say with that is that an artist should not try to create something that is pleasing for the listener, he should create what what he likes no matter if anyone else likes it. Most bands don't follow this rule, because it simply doesn't pay off financially, so they create what the audience wants to hear. Once again I want to state that I don't expect the artist to deliberately create something most people don't like, he just shouldn't care about it. And very few artists nowadays have this integrity.

I agree with you on this! BUT, I still think that TRUE prog IS a genre that holds VERY much of what you seem to like. Otherwise, why prog???
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Points: 509 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2005 at 20:28
Originally posted by frippertronik frippertronik wrote:

dream theater is a great band, but along the ranking, their albums appears too much, when only 2 cd's must be in the top100

 

But since the chart is made out of how much reviews the records have they shall be there, to my ears i don't wanna any dt album at top 5000, but that's another thing called taste and if the chart was made out of taste it would almost look the same no matter what... 

*Dancing madly backwards on a sea of air* - Captain Beyond
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krauthead View Drop Down
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Points: 509 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2005 at 20:25

Originally posted by AcdcFan411 AcdcFan411 wrote:

U guys dont know the meaning of a great band, the best band is ac dc

Top Ten Ac/Dc cds

1Jailbreak

2Razors edge

3 DirtyDeedsDoneDirtCheap

4 ACDC Live

5 Let There Be Rock

6 Stiff upper lip

7 Sattilite blues

8 High Voltage

9 Back In Black

10 Powerage

 

ACDC must be one of the rock bands I dislike the most, I can't stand a single tune... so shall I throw my 5000+ albums out with the garbage since they must be crap?

*Dancing madly backwards on a sea of air* - Captain Beyond
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2005 at 20:25
Originally posted by flowerchild flowerchild wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I stated that from being the most popular you can't derive they are the best, and I'll stick with that. And it is certainly true in many cases that bands are simply overrated by the majority. My personal opinion is that about 10-20% of what is very popular also is very good, compared with the unpopular stuff. But mere popularity of a certain band or album says absolutely nothing about the quality.

Well, in prog it does. 'cause prog is a genre of music that is NOT regarded as popular!!!

That's neither true for prog nor is it true for any other genre of music (or, for that matter, art or cinema or literature or whatever).

Personal preference plays a big role, of course. I have a certain dislike for bands tht are too willinglky pleasing for the ear. I already quoted the Japanese tea-master Kobori Enshu before and do it again here:  "I used to praise the artist because he created what I liked. Now I praise myself because I like what the artist has chosen for me." What Kobori Enshu wants to say with that is that an artist should not try to create something that is pleasing for the listener, he should create what what he likes no matter if anyone else likes it. Most bands don't follow this rule, because it simply doesn't pay off financially, so they create what the audience wants to hear. Once again I want to state that I don't expect the artist to deliberately create something most people don't like, he just shouldn't care about it. And very few artists nowadays have this integrity.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2005 at 20:24

Originally posted by AcdcFan411 AcdcFan411 wrote:

U guys dont know the meaning of a great band, the best band is ac dc

Top Ten Ac/Dc cds

1Jailbreak

2Razors edge

3 DirtyDeedsDoneDirtCheap

4 ACDC Live

5 Let There Be Rock

6 Stiff upper lip

7 Sattilite blues

8 High Voltage

9 Back In Black

10 Powerage

No dissrespect, but are you sure you've come to the right web-site???...or are you just kidding.....???
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Points: 2 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2005 at 20:21
U guys dont know the meaning of a great band, the best band is ac dc

Top Ten Ac/Dc cds

1Jailbreak

2Razors edge

3 DirtyDeedsDoneDirtCheap

4 ACDC Live

5 Let There Be Rock

6 Stiff upper lip

7 Sattilite blues

8 High Voltage

9 Back In Black

10 Powerage
Daniel Cunningham
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