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WinterLight View Drop Down
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Points: 424 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2008 at 03:07
Originally posted by Stoogefright Stoogefright wrote:

With prog covering such complex and varied lyrical subjects as it does, the topic of religion is one that appears here more often than in your run-of-the-mill genres. Do you find the appearance of theistic or atheistic views more often in prog? What are your favorite treatments of either side?


It would seem to me that religious themes are best left to the "run-of-the-mill" genres.  To me progressive music has much more in common with the secular humanist worldview, in particular, with its celebration of growth, creativity, and overall excellence, characteristics typically ignored, or in some cases rejected by definition, in religious circles.

With that said, there doesn't appear to be any significant support for either view in prog, despite the occasional lyric (many of which others have referenced already).  Unlike folk or punk, prog prioritizes musicianship above message, and musicianship is, of course, why I so love this genre.
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Points: 356 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2008 at 06:32
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

It's funny, but Marillion's "When I Meet God" doesn't bother me because as soon as I hear "When I meet God / I'm going to ask her..."

... Is she just stars and indigo gas.   I like that a lot more than a god of human form.
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Points: 91 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2008 at 11:33
"Long you live and high you fly,
Smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry,
All you touch and all you see,
Is all your life will ever be."

Would that be atheism?

Taken from Pink Floyd's "Breathe" BTW, I really like those lyrics.
It's the "get-up-and-go-live-you-life-NOW!" kind of album IMO.
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Points: 189 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2008 at 03:11
I suggest you listen a little more closely to Aqualung, it is not atheist, its anti-church.
Ian Anderson is a believer.
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Points: 2755 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2008 at 04:26
I believe that Wakeman's Christianity is not of the born-again variety.
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Points: 37 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2008 at 04:11
On a related topic, does anyone know if Rick Wakeman actually did become a born-again Christian several years ago?
"The Box. You opened it. We came."
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Points: 2755 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2008 at 16:22
Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Originally posted by Cesar Inca Cesar Inca wrote:

Originally posted by keiser willhelm keiser willhelm wrote:

Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

AQUALUNG not atheist? Then what do you make of Mr. Anderson's sleevenotes:

'In the beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he him.

2. And Man gave unto God a multitude of names, that he might be god all over the earth when it was suited to Man.

3. And on the seven millionth day Man rested and did lean heavily on his God and saw that it was good.'

Pretty obvious, isn't it? No matter what Ian may be singing about in "My God", and no matter what he may have said in certain interviews, these statements clearly point towards an atheist way of thinking.


I have to disagree that this is clearly an atheist way of thinking. although it could be seen as that from an atheist point of view and used to argue for atheism i think anderson meant it to be more of  condemnation of organized religion, ie the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church wrote the bible, created the image of God, set up the idea of God gave him a multitude of names so he might be God all over the earth when it suited the Catholic Church.
Ian doesnt come out and deny the existence of any god or a God, just the God created by the Catholic Church.
 
 
I had just read this post today and was thinking about a reply, but Keiser did it earlier and better. Criticizing a particular feature in a particular time of a particular Church doesn't mean a criticism against God or some sort of atheism.
Jesus Christ himself made a major statement against the institutionalized Church of his time when he angrily whipped out all merchants in the Temple.
 
       Kind regards.
 
Can you point this out? I'm interested.
 
 
The statement in this particular instance was his action.  But you can find Jesus' denunciation of institutionalized religion in his denunciation of the Pharisees.  This should satisfy you.
 
Matthew 23: 13-39
 

 13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

 14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

 15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

 16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

 17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

 18And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

 19Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

 20Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

 21And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

 22And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

 23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

 24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

 25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

 26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

 27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

 28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

 29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

 30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

 31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

 32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

 34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

 36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

 37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

 39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

I would think that even an atheist (provided that he is inclined to morality) would agree with these sentiments.


Edited by ghost_of_morphy - May 17 2008 at 16:25
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Points: 2463 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2008 at 16:12
Originally posted by Cesar Inca Cesar Inca wrote:

Criticizing a particular feature in a particular time of a particular Church doesn't mean a criticism against God or some sort of atheism.


Once again, here are Ian Anderson's liner notes from AQUALUNG:

'In the beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he him.

2. And Man gave unto God a multitude of names, that he might be god all over the earth when it was suited to Man.

3. And on the seven millionth day Man rested and did lean heavily on his God and saw that it was good.'

There is no talk here of the Church of England, the Roman Catholic Church or any other institutionalised religion; just the statement: 'In the beginning' [mind you, NOT in the days of Henry VIII, who founded the Anglican Church] 'Man created God'.

In other words: there was no God until Man 'created' him.

It seems to me that this is AQUALUNG's message as far as religion is concerned, otherwise these words would not be on the album cover in gothic script, clearly meant to parody 'Biblical' writing. The songs you hear on the album can be considered as illustrations of how certain people have created false gods in their own image.

But enough of this! Although I'm a non-believer, I do not want to give you the impression I'm waging a war against religion, when I get some of my greatest kicks out of religious poetry, visual art and music. (Definitely NOT out of 'Christian rock', though. )
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Points: 4888 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2008 at 13:57
Originally posted by Stoogefright Stoogefright wrote:

With prog covering such complex and varied lyrical subjects as it does, the topic of religion is one that appears here more often than in your run-of-the-mill genres. Do you find the appearance of theistic or atheistic views more often in prog? What are your favorite treatments of either side?
 
As long as the music is good (when not great or even masterful) and the lyrics are clever (when not poetic), I prefer both. The amazing colors of Kerry Livgren-penned 'No One Together' and the serene beauty of Chris Judge-Smith-penned 'Four Pales' (recorded by Hammill) move me equally, and since they reflect ideas about trascendental being, they both are preachy on their own terms. And I dont' care... I really dont'... once the artistic goal is met with talent and inspiration, nothing else matters.
 
    Kind regards. 
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Points: 4888 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2008 at 13:53
Originally posted by StyLaZyn StyLaZyn wrote:

Originally posted by Cesar Inca Cesar Inca wrote:

Originally posted by keiser willhelm keiser willhelm wrote:

Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

AQUALUNG not atheist? Then what do you make of Mr. Anderson's sleevenotes:

'In the beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he him.

2. And Man gave unto God a multitude of names, that he might be god all over the earth when it was suited to Man.

3. And on the seven millionth day Man rested and did lean heavily on his God and saw that it was good.'

Pretty obvious, isn't it? No matter what Ian may be singing about in "My God", and no matter what he may have said in certain interviews, these statements clearly point towards an atheist way of thinking.


I have to disagree that this is clearly an atheist way of thinking. although it could be seen as that from an atheist point of view and used to argue for atheism i think anderson meant it to be more of  condemnation of organized religion, ie the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church wrote the bible, created the image of God, set up the idea of God gave him a multitude of names so he might be God all over the earth when it suited the Catholic Church.
Ian doesnt come out and deny the existence of any god or a God, just the God created by the Catholic Church.
 
 
I had just read this post today and was thinking about a reply, but Keiser did it earlier and better. Criticizing a particular feature in a particular time of a particular Church doesn't mean a criticism against God or some sort of atheism.
Jesus Christ himself made a major statement against the institutionalized Church of his time when he angrily whipped out all merchants in the Temple.
 
       Kind regards.
 
Can you point this out? I'm interested.
 
 
 

All Gospels locate the event during Jesus Christ’s journey in Jerusalem, except for St. John’s, which locates it in the early stages of Jesus’ public life (the first of his final three years of Earthly existence).

 

Anyway, the thing is that he entered the Temple of Jerusalem, Herod’s Temple, and was highly upset by what he saw: lots of livestock sellers and moneychangers at the threshold and the courtyard of the Temple itself. He was angry at the sight of this sort of merchandising around religious subjects that should stay out of the business side of society. And so, creating a whip from some cords, he drove out the livestock, scattered the coins of the money changers and turned over their tables, of course, managing to beat some of the merchants. While doing this, JC claimed “My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations, but you have made it a den of thieves”. I like to think that together with this call for purified prayer (as opposed to “merchandised prayer”), this action is a rebellion against the way the Pharisees were conducting the religious procedures, where the financial aspect threatened to overcome the spiritual one (the basic aspect of religious experience).

 

Here are some lovely old paintings portraying this event.-

 

By Pannini: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Giovanni_Paolo_Pannini_001.jpg

By Rembrandt: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/Rembrandt_Harmensz._van_Rijn_024.jpg

By El Greco: http://www.artehistoria.jcyl.es/genios/jpg/GRL01683.jpg

By Tiepolo: http://www.museothyssen.org/thyssen/coleccion/obras_ficha_zoom998.html

 

 

 

All in all, this is an idea that all of us can relate to, even if one is not a Christian or even is an atheist – spiritual matters shouldn’t be conditioned or framed by financial issues.

 

 

         Kind regards.

 
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Points: 5898 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2008 at 10:30

about Aqualung... I think the song My God makes it sound like Ian Anderson's not as much against Christianity period as he's against mainstream Christianity, but then there are the liner notes. Maybe he was in doubt about it all when he wrote that album, and made it to solve that existential crisis? Wink
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Points: 8 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2008 at 01:31
Originally posted by keiser willhelm keiser willhelm wrote:


I have to disagree that this is clearly an atheist way of thinking. although it could be seen as that from an atheist point of view and used to argue for atheism i think anderson meant it to be more of condemnation of organized religion, ie the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church wrote the bible, created the image of God, set up the idea of God gave him a multitude of names so he might be God all over the earth when it suited the Catholic Church. Ian doesnt come out and deny the existence of any god or a God, just the God created by the Catholic Church.


Hmm, I always thought it was more against the C. of E. ("in chains of history/requests your earthly presence at the vicarage for tea").
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Points: 37 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2008 at 17:14
I agree on the point about 'Phallus Dei'!
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Points: 1170 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2008 at 12:50
Being an Atheist, happy Christian lyrics are not something that I enjoy on a regular basis. However, more New Agey and ambiguous spirituality is fine and encouraged, even.

However, angry, whiny Atheist lyrics are also not something I enjoy on a regular basis. Luckily I can't think of any of these in prog. I think well-thought cynicism and even otherworldly theological discussions (Deathspell Omega) are the best kind of religious lyrics because they're actually interesting to me. That's part of the reason why I enjoyed Aqualung (the album).
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Points: 4079 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2008 at 09:44
Originally posted by Cesar Inca Cesar Inca wrote:

Originally posted by keiser willhelm keiser willhelm wrote:

Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

AQUALUNG not atheist? Then what do you make of Mr. Anderson's sleevenotes:

'In the beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he him.

2. And Man gave unto God a multitude of names, that he might be god all over the earth when it was suited to Man.

3. And on the seven millionth day Man rested and did lean heavily on his God and saw that it was good.'

Pretty obvious, isn't it? No matter what Ian may be singing about in "My God", and no matter what he may have said in certain interviews, these statements clearly point towards an atheist way of thinking.


I have to disagree that this is clearly an atheist way of thinking. although it could be seen as that from an atheist point of view and used to argue for atheism i think anderson meant it to be more of  condemnation of organized religion, ie the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church wrote the bible, created the image of God, set up the idea of God gave him a multitude of names so he might be God all over the earth when it suited the Catholic Church.
Ian doesnt come out and deny the existence of any god or a God, just the God created by the Catholic Church.
 
 
I had just read this post today and was thinking about a reply, but Keiser did it earlier and better. Criticizing a particular feature in a particular time of a particular Church doesn't mean a criticism against God or some sort of atheism.
Jesus Christ himself made a major statement against the institutionalized Church of his time when he angrily whipped out all merchants in the Temple.
 
       Kind regards.
 
Can you point this out? I'm interested.
 
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Points: 4888 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2008 at 09:29
Originally posted by keiser willhelm keiser willhelm wrote:

Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

AQUALUNG not atheist? Then what do you make of Mr. Anderson's sleevenotes:

'In the beginning Man created God; and in the image of Man created he him.

2. And Man gave unto God a multitude of names, that he might be god all over the earth when it was suited to Man.

3. And on the seven millionth day Man rested and did lean heavily on his God and saw that it was good.'

Pretty obvious, isn't it? No matter what Ian may be singing about in "My God", and no matter what he may have said in certain interviews, these statements clearly point towards an atheist way of thinking.


I have to disagree that this is clearly an atheist way of thinking. although it could be seen as that from an atheist point of view and used to argue for atheism i think anderson meant it to be more of  condemnation of organized religion, ie the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church wrote the bible, created the image of God, set up the idea of God gave him a multitude of names so he might be God all over the earth when it suited the Catholic Church.
Ian doesnt come out and deny the existence of any god or a God, just the God created by the Catholic Church.
 
 
I had just read this post today and was thinking about a reply, but Keiser did it earlier and better. Criticizing a particular feature in a particular time of a particular Church doesn't mean a criticism against God or some sort of atheism.
Jesus Christ himself made a major statement against the institutionalized Church of his time when he angrily whipped out all merchants in the Temple.
 
       Kind regards.
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Points: 105 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2008 at 20:35
"Lean upon him gently and don't call on him to save"
 
 
As an atheist I naturally feel drawn towards lyrics that express a similar cynicism of religion, but I don't care one way or the other as long as the music is good.
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Points: 392 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2008 at 16:27
Personally I don't like theist lyrics, even I don't like clear positive messages (i.e. Flowerkings), I don't know, I feel like in a church or something, being an atheist, but I really like spiritual themes, from the philosophic point of view, since these are very intriguing themes. Pain Of Salvation's BE may be the best known example. Lyrics I don't like, The revealing science of god...

Interesting point Clap
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Points: 30 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2008 at 15:27
...Well I'm pretty sure an album called 'The Penis of God' is probably not made to honour the Lord most high.
 
I really like Neal Morse's lyrics... and Pain of Salvation's.
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Points: 85 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2008 at 11:56
Is Phallus Dei by Amon Duul 2 atheist, or, because it acknowledges the presence of Dei, is it not?? Hmmmmm - much stroking of chins!
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