New Category, Post metal/ Sludge or Doom

The T wrote: I much rather prefer just two genres: "obscure" bands and "unobscure" or "sold-out, commercial, not-so-prog-because-of-success" bands.... In that way, symphonic will have its representatives in both genres... art rock will have representatives in both genres.... Zeuhl and Rio will have representatives only in the "obscure" (read intellectual) genres, while metal, for some strange reason, will be entirely in the second genre, even though some of their artists have to work in fast food restaurants in order to pay the mortgage on their cheap wal-mart guitars....

I wonder how many trolls consider that to be a good idea

Hey, I just came up with the "genres dilemma" solution. We divide the groups up like this -Can't you see it's prog, kinda prog, proggy, arguably almost prog, disputably prog and finally prog that i alone like. Or, to really start up the opinion firestorms, popular prog & unpopular prog; which would be - in the first group Symphonic, Metal, Folk, Eclectic/Crossover/Heavy Prog, then the other group - Pretend Jazz/Zeuhl/Raga-Indo/Rio-Avant-Garde/Krautrock/Post-Rock
Of course, I would need to ask for some patience on PA members' part as I sort out the two groupings.

debrewguy wrote: The T wrote: Shakespeare wrote: I still think the site can be run with 3-5 subgenres. We have WAAAAYYY too many subdivisions. Hell, if we were being completely fair, we'd subdivide until every band had their own subgenre.   No! I say we have to go on until we finally uncover the great "romanian-epic-legendary-transylvanian-death-non-growling-post-antro-towering-metal" sub genre that's been hidden from us the last thousand years!  I think that album is still being written as we speak. After all, coming up with that musical mix & its' attendant genre (or description< if you will) would take a lot out of anyone. But I expect the album will come out shortly after Guns n Roses Chines Democracy.

The T wrote: Shakespeare wrote: I still think the site can be run with 3-5 subgenres. We have WAAAAYYY too many subdivisions. Hell, if we were being completely fair, we'd subdivide until every band had their own subgenre.   No! I say we have to go on until we finally uncover the great "romanian-epic-legendary-transylvanian-death-non-growling-post-antro-towering-metal" sub genre that's been hidden from us the last thousand years!

 I think that album is still being written as we speak. After all, coming up with that musical mix & its' attendant genre (or description< if you will) would take a lot out of anyone. But I expect the album will come out shortly after Guns n Roses Chines Democracy.

Genre recommendation: Post-Neogoth Avant-Raga Symphfusion!

I still think the site can be run with 3-5 subgenres. We have WAAAAYYY too many subdivisions. Hell, if we were being completely fair, we'd subdivide until every band had their own subgenre.

laplace wrote: FoxyTunes debrewguy wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ maybe you should be more careful laplace ... I've read many of your reviews and posts and while I respect your opinion, you often make it sound like the things you say are fact. They're not ... the existence of this very thread proves you wrong for example ("terribly rigid" - Post Metal is a prime example for unusual metal bands).  Woohoo. Mike bowls a perfect strike, and puts Laplace in his/her place. If prog is about stretching musical boundaries, or at least stepping out of the mainstream Pop structures, one must admit that not all prog genres are going to be to one's liking. Personally, Krautrock, Zeuhl, and most , but not all RIO/Avant Garde is not to my liking. Heck, Raga-Indo Rock still confuses me by its' inclusion here. But I have come to love Univers Zero ( Ihave all their albums). I like some Zappa albums, but not all. And I STILL give a listen to some mp3 samples from Krautrock & Zeulh bands in case there is that one act that will catch my fancy. So my main pleasure here at PA is the search for musical treasures that I've yet to find. TO stumble on some forgotten classic, or maybe a newer act putting their own stamp on prog. If not, we may just as well re-define prog as the music made by some bands before 1980 & refuse admission to this hallowed club for anything afterwards. I am not exactly a fan of most of the new metal of the last decade (prog or not). But there are still "metal" groups or artists that i have become interested in such as Devin Townsend, Anathema, and others. So don't lock your mind up. You never know what it might like until you find it. you're both missing the point. ;P I like and know a lot about metal and its various styles. Although I know that black metal doesn't resemble power metal which in turn is nothing like sludge, I say it's rigid because a lot of the musical energy is spent on being heavy more or less constantly, so metal has less of a dynamic range in which to be inventive. A lot of post metal is a huge wall of sound, most if not all tech, thrash and death musicians are devoted to riffing and power metal has to stay close to the "epic" sound which precludes a lot of melodic complication - this is rigidity to me. Refute it if you like, but not in a self-congratulating or vague way.

One could say that about other genres - Symphonic proggers tend towards lengthy multi part suites, RIO/Avant-Garde usually revel in dissonance & "un-harmony", Space Rockers drone on, though not like Krautrockers, Folk Prog never breaks out of centuries old melodic structures etc ..
I believe that what you see as rigidity is in fact some basic template for a genre or sub-genre. Yes, many metal acts, prog or not, aim for heaviness. But would you also state that all folk prog groups keep to a pastoral sound ? That is a basic approach in that genre, but many so-called folkies do add other musical colours to their compositions. Comus is described as folk prog, but I wouldn't compare them to Tull or the Strawbs. There are many cherished groups from the 70s that are listed under the "symphonic" tag. But some wrote extended songs, others kept to more manageable lengths, some adapted classical themes, some stole them outright, others melded many styles, such as Genesis with the Music Hall influence. Saying that a lot of music in a specific sub-genre sounds alike begs the question - What would you expect ? That they sound completely different ??? Genesis & PFM are symphonic. Genesis & PFM have their sound & followed their own progressions over their career, and while they've maintained their own individual identities, one cannot help but notice some similarities.
So if you want to say that you don't like this or that type of music, then fine, you know what you like, I don't. But dismissing it because a lot of it sounds similar to your ears ? After all, to repeat myself, that is the definition of a genre, that a certain type of music is composed of certain elements, to the point that a commonality can be heard among different bands.
So review your comments, switch the post-metal tag to another subgenre, then add in the usual description for that genre & wonder why you may not have the same reaction when it comes to genres that you prefer

Theres no doubt in my mind why it shouldn't be...it's like mushing art rock(old) neo and symphonic together...kind of.

Noone said it would be easy ... 

How about this:

• Prog Metal
• Tech/Avant/Extreme Prog Metal
• Experimental/Post Metal

We simply move the label "Avant" to "Tech/Extreme" and replace it with "Experimental" in the "Post" category. This way Unexpect fit perfectly in the second category, and a band like Tool fits in the third.

BTW: Spiral Architect fits perfectly in Tech/Extreme, as does Arcturus. Adding "Avant" to this genre makes it even clearer.


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - September 18 2007 at 16:11

^ I think that bands like Unexpect or Diablo Swing Orchestra would go to tech/extreme ... Post/Avant would be for "calmer" bands - either true Post Metal bands or Experimental Prog Metal bands which aren't quirky/extreme enough for tech/math.