New Category, Post metal/ Sludge or Doom
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41802
Printed Date: March 03 2025 at 16:54
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Topic: New Category, Post metal/ Sludge or Doom
Posted By: keiser willhelm
Subject: New Category, Post metal/ Sludge or Doom
Date Posted: September 17 2007 at 23:36
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I am of the opinion that a new sub category should be made for these types of bands that somehow get lumped into the now gigantic , catch-all category of progressive metal. bands like Isis, Neurosis, and Pelican just to name a few, do not belong in the same category as dream theater and symphony x even if they happen to use the distorted guitar and heavy vocals. its a completely different type of music almost entirely. I was wondering what you thought? yes no? why?
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Replies:
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: September 17 2007 at 23:50
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I agree.I have personally added a large number of these type of bands that are here.With post rock being a sub-genre here,the addition of post metal bands was a logical step.I think Isis was the first we added,and that addition opened the door for other post metal bands.I was never comfortable calling them progressive metal. -------------  |
Posted By: P.H.P.
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 00:55
Now it really is AnythingArchives!!  |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 01:11
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No, it's not ahything archives.. It's still progressive music that needs to be subgenre-ized for easier navigation, research, and more coherence for the listener, for the newbie and the regular fan.
Bands in prog metal:
Dream Theater
Kayo Dot
Death
Unexpect
Messhuggah
Other than the metal riffing and some minor elements, you can't say these 5 are a lot alike, are they?
Prog-metal should have more going into the proto-genre and the related genre.. I can't agree with only ONE metal band in prog related, and countless of pseudo-prog rock bands.... there ARE metal bands that are related to prog, if not full blown prog-metal... Also, at least two bands (rejected, I know, but I'll say it anyway) are important in the formation of the prog-metal genre: the San Francisco band (those who know will understand) and Mercyful fate...(and a few more)....OK, I understand this is not "metal archives" (there's a site with that name) but if we have prog-metal here, let's respect it. There ARE prog-related metal bands, but nothing gets in, whereas any pseudo emo rock with some long song gets added..I'm sorry for this rant, it just doesn't make me happy.
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Posted By: kazansky
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 01:24
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now that Art Rock has been splitted, perhaps the same could be done with Prog Metal? just don't make too many subgenres perhaps ------------- The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 01:47
| If I am allowed to throw my own 2 eurocents in, I think it's a more than sensible move. Even not being a PM expert, I've heard enough of the bands listed here to understand that Dream Theater and Kayo Dot have absolutely nothing in common, and that Opeth sound quite different from Symphony X. I know that lately PA has been getting a lot of flak because of its categorization system, but we're not the only ones that use it - and, once you start going that way, it's inevitable to try and get more and more accurate. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 02:30
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Currently there are approximately 400 prog metal bands in the database, another 70 have been cleared for addition, and another 100+ bands are being considered. It's about time that this huge category gets split ... as some of you will know the PMT worked out a suggestion which would result in 4 or 5 new categories, each of which would contain 50-150 bands.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: Mategra
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 03:46
 Metal isn't real Prog.
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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 03:56
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^well, the entry "progginess" level is lower just because of how terribly rigid metal is, naturally, but I think the teams *tend* to pick the most inventive bands from what's available...
------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 06:53
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^ maybe you should be more careful laplace ... I've read many of your reviews and posts and while I respect your opinion, you often make it sound like the things you say are fact. They're not ... the existence of this very thread proves you wrong for example ("terribly rigid" - Post Metal is a prime example for unusual metal bands).
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: jikai55
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 07:02
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Yes, I feel the post-metal genre is neccessary!
Remember, not all Sludge bands are Post-Metal bands! Well, if you were breaking down Prog Metal, heres some categories I could recommend: Post-Metal (Isis, Neurosis...) Avant-Garde Metal (Subterranean Masquerade, Unexpect...) Jazz Metal/Tech Metal (Cynic, Atheist, Meshuggah...) And keep the category 'Progressive Metal' for bands like DT and Fates Warning. Just my ideas. ------------- 
I like cheese and I like metal! --Mikael Åkerfeldt |
Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 07:09
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They may seem out of place in Prog Metal, but can you imagine what this place will be like if its open for Doom Metal and more common Sludge Metal bands? We'll loose control of those genres very quickly. I'm a big fan of Doom Metal and all of things slow riff related (), but adding new genres will be too much, in my opinion. ------------- 
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Posted By: jikai55
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 07:15
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You just have to draw the line between sludge and post-metal. Sure, bands like Isis and Neurosis are sludge AND post-metal, but bands like Bongzilla and Acid Bath aren't post-metal. -------------
I like cheese and I like metal! --Mikael Åkerfeldt |
Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 07:20
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^^^ And what should we do with the Doom Metal bands? Those guys may be progressive in the true sense of the word, but they aren't really part of the progressive rock movement. I like your idea of the subdivisions of the genre, by the way.  -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 07:20
That's not very far from what we have in mind in the PMT ... but there are two more candidates for new categories IMO: Prog Power Metal (Kamelot, Symphony X, Nightwish, Rhapsody, ... all bands with a focus on Power Metal (both European/American style)) Extreme Prog Metal (Opeth, Meshuggah, Death, Atheist, Enslaved, ... all bands based in extreme metal genres like Death, Black, Thrash etc) As a result the bands remaining in Prog Metal would all be melodic and symphonic, So it might be renamed to Melodic Prog Metal:
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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jikai55 wrote:Posted By: activetopics
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 07:26
so....many......subgenres.....aaah! 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 07:33
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^ the bands are different enough to justify the genres ... prog metal simply branched out much more than most other sub genres of prog rock. In the last 20+ years it developed into a base genre ... like an offshoot of prog rock, a child branch which developed into a separate tree. Imagine Frank Zappa, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Genesis, Hawkwind, Sigur Rós, Can and Rush being in the same category ... that's a bit like what we currently have in Prog Metal.  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: jikai55
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 07:42
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Sounds great Mike, though Atheist is better in tech metal in my opinion. -------------
I like cheese and I like metal! --Mikael Åkerfeldt |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 07:46
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Sub dividing Prog Metal is a good idea: Neurosis, Opeth and Dream Theater lumped together does not compute, but I feel six is too many (even though the reality is probably more than six ) - it becomes too esoteric and subjective. Would it not be better to start small, say 3, and see how it works out?
------------- What? |
Posted By: oracus
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 08:35
It is already AnythingArchives. We have from Iron Maiden to GY!BE, from Billy Cobham to Led Zeppelin... ------------- 
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Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 09:06
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Agree with Post-Metal genre idea
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Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 09:51
| If we keep up at this rate, well end up having a separate genre per artist. Is there really such a genre as post metal? If yes, what is it? |
Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 10:14
It depends on how much you like artists. I'd personally join rogether RIO/Avant/Zeuhl and Jazz/Fusion as I'm a total n00b in them and rarely enjoying music from those bands  . I'd also add Indo-Prog to Prog Folk and would name this mixture an Ethnic Prog
Post-Metal are PELICAN, THE MORNINGSIDE, GIANT SQUID, GRAYCEON, RED SPAROWES, RUSSIAN CIRCLES, ISIS, NEUROSIS, CULT OF LUNA, AGALLOCH and many others. I suppose 1/5 of all Prog-Metal bands on PA would fit here . Almost a hundred of bands is quite enough for a new category, eh?
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Posted By: Abstrakt
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 10:14
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 10:20
Of course. This would also be possible:
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 10:33
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From an aesthetic point of view an extra 5 metal categories the Prog Archives main menu would over-dominate. ------------- What? |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 10:37
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^ It would be like 6 vs. 15 ...
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 10:55
| Stop calling it Post-Metal please. It isn't Post-Metal because it still is Metal. "Post" isn't a style indicator. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 10:59
------------- What? |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 11:04
Then we should also stop using the label "Post Rock". I would be happy to use more descriptive labels like "Minimalistic/Epic Rock", but unfortunately "Post" is the moniker which has become the de-facto standard. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 11:10
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 11:21
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I generally support the decisions of the talented people here, I would only add that new genres should be added as judiciously, as conservatively as possible. Only when absolutely necessary. At some point you have to realize that art/music can never be perfectly compartmentalized, and to attempt to do so can get out of hand in a hurry. Personally I like broader genres and have no problem with bands of different metal styles being under one genre. Same with any existing genre. But that's just me. Carry on lads!
------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: GoldenSpiral
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 11:53
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I'm starting to think all these subgenres are just silly and confusing.
Here's my suggestion: Don't actually divide up prog-metal into definite subgenres (i.e. separate pages on the site with links on the main page), but rather define the various prog-metal subgenres on the main page of the prog-metal section, and refer each band individually to one or more subgenres on their own page.
Trying to separate out all those bands into definite genres would be excruciating (I know the PM team has already created such a chart, but it would still lead to more endless debating). I think a more open-ended system would be beneficial.
All that said, Post-Metal rules! Listen to ROSETTA ------------- http://www.myspace.com/altaic" rel="nofollow - http://www.myspace.com/altaic ALTAIC "Oceans Down You'll Lie" coming soon |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 12:28
And some say Proggers tend to have a more open mind towards music  Please remember that many "non-prog" music fans assign a very simple description to this sites many musical denizens - overly long multi part suites about fairies & obscure eastern spiritual noodlings or space themes, or dada-esque lyrics. Open your ears, and if not, admit that your tastes do not include "heavier" stuff. Or maybe, just maybe, .... you're too old (not just age-wise, but attitude-wise). I recall a time when what we now call prog bands (Yes, Genesis, Gentle Giant, Crimson) were included in the "heavy rock" scene during the early 70s. So, to paraphrase an old Hall & Oates tune - If you can, you can talk about some metal. Just don't generalise, they're not an army of soldiers of metal. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: N Ellingworth
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 12:38
| Splitting the prog metal genres makes a lot of sense to me, as it stands prog metal is just like art rock used to be so splitting it can only be a good thing. Hopefully the PM Team can get this sorted relatively quickly. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 12:38
Hoorah for some good common sense. Well said. Just about all of PA's genres could be sub-divided. Keep it to general categories, with the usual musical description including the various sub-genres or styles. It was a good idea to change the Art Rock sect, if only because it was too vague & could allow any prog band that couldn't really fit into the other genres. A good example is the new "heavy prog" division. So, for the whiners who dislike anything slightly dissonant (funny how the RIO/Avant prog or Zeuhl are never dismissed as "un-prog), heavy (Yes & Crimson could be very heavy at times), or loud ; well , find something to do with your life. Others have as valid an opinion as you do. And if you are adamant (or Adam Ant, for that matter) about prog being this very specific, restricted & limited music, then set up your own closed reality site. Most here appreciate diversity, and expect this genre we call prog to evolve into many styles we might not have thought of, even a few years ago ( & that includes Neo-Prog ... I Love IQ ) ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 12:45
True ... the hardest obstacle to overcome is sometimes a band's popularity. It sometimes seems that many here cannot accept that SOME prog bands can & have actually achieved commercial AND critical success - Yes, Crimson, Rush, Genesis, Tull, Floyd, Dream Theater, Porcupine Tree, and many others. Some are multi-platinum, some are mainstream, and more than a few enjoy a decent level of success that has allowed them to build a career or still enjoy a certain cache many years after their glory days. Gentle Giant still has a very dedicated fan base. Heck, even Gryphon is putting together a new album due to fans' continuing interest in their music. PFM's recent albums always seem to cause excitement when news appears that a new one is on the way. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 12:50
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As you mentioned the AR split, it happened for a series of reasons - last but not least, the name, which was unclear and ambiguous, and caused an endless spate of threads going, "Why are King Crimson in AR? This means they're not prog!" Furthermore, with close to 500 bands in the category, it had become next to untenable, and made no sense any longer - it was little more than a dumping ground for anything that was not clear-cut, like Symphonic, RIO or PM. Prog Metal, though the name is much clearer, runs the risk of becoming a duplicate of AR, comprising bands extremely different from each other, much more so than in any of the other genres. On the other hand, I am afraid splitting the genre in six or more subgenres would make the site seem dominated by metal, whose prog credentials are already frowned upon by many people (here and elsewhere). |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 12:55
Woohoo. Mike bowls a perfect strike, and puts Laplace in his/her place. If prog is about stretching musical boundaries, or at least stepping out of the mainstream Pop structures, one must admit that not all prog genres are going to be to one's liking. Personally, Krautrock, Zeuhl, and most , but not all RIO/Avant Garde is not to my liking. Heck, Raga-Indo Rock still confuses me by its' inclusion here. But I have come to love Univers Zero ( Ihave all their albums). I like some Zappa albums, but not all. And I STILL give a listen to some mp3 samples from Krautrock & Zeulh bands in case there is that one act that will catch my fancy. So my main pleasure here at PA is the search for musical treasures that I've yet to find. TO stumble on some forgotten classic, or maybe a newer act putting their own stamp on prog. If not, we may just as well re-define prog as the music made by some bands before 1980 & refuse admission to this hallowed club for anything afterwards. I am not exactly a fan of most of the new metal of the last decade (prog or not). But there are still "metal" groups or artists that i have become interested in such as Devin Townsend, Anathema, and others. So don't lock your mind up. You never know what it might like until you find it. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 13:30
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I remember being one of the more vocal supporters for the split of prog metal when the work was originally done by MikeE and co (sorry, cant remember everyone that had a hand in that, but it was all good) nearly 2 years ago, and the split is needed more than ever now (from what Mike said in an earlier post, it looks like PM could have upwars of 650 bands!). However I would urge caution over the number of genres its split into, but about 3/4 would be perfec IMO.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 14:30
http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/ - FoxyTunes
you're both missing the point. ;P I like and know a lot about metal and its various styles. Although I know that black metal doesn't resemble power metal which in turn is nothing like sludge, I say it's rigid because a lot of the musical energy is spent on being heavy more or less constantly, so metal has less of a dynamic range in which to be inventive. A lot of post metal is a huge wall of sound, most if not all tech, thrash and death musicians are devoted to riffing and power metal has to stay close to the "epic" sound which precludes a lot of melodic complication - this is rigidity to me. Refute it if you like, but not in a self-congratulating or vague way. ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 14:38
I know - one of my other suggestions combines Extreme and Tech/Math. I suppose this would be ok for most people - although Opeth would seem a bit out of place among these Tech/Math bands. Of course any split would cause problems with a few bands ... as did the Art Rock split. But in the end I think the positive effects will prevail. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 14:48
Interesting point. However, but similar points could be made about Prog Rock. Metal is heavy more or less constantly, but Rock is never heavy. Both could be perceived as confining and essentially limiting the bandwidth of expression. In reality of course many Prog Rock bands get heavy occasionally, and Prog Metal bands aren't heavy all the time. And those which are heavy all the time use other means to vary their music ... essentially it's this diversity which leads to the different sub genres. BTW: I don't intend to "refute" your point about Tech/Thrash/Death music ... many of these bands are indeed a bit too static for my taste and stick to a given formula too rigidly. On the other hand so did many technical bands from the 70s (Jazz Fusion). Throughout the ages there seem to be people who complain about "too many notes" ... from Paganini to Vai, while there are other people who can't get enough complexity and technicality. Look at it this way: The new genres will make it easier for you to avoid bands. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 15:40
If we wanted to keep things simple I think we could fit all the bands that are in prog metal right now in these three sub-genres.
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 15:42
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I don't think we should divide the genre into 5, but into three:
Progressive-metal - (classic prog-metal like DT or FW and power-metal-related bands like Rhapsody, or bands that play more "traditional" metal like Vanden Plas, Poverty's No Crime, etc., from a harmonical and structural point of view )
Progressive-Death(or Extreme)Metal - for bands like Opeth, Death, Cynic, Atheist.... Now we could also split this in two: death-prog-metal and technicalprog-metal like the aformentioned ones -but Opeth- and bands like Spiral Architect which, curiously, in a way could also go in the genre above, as they share some elements with bands like Fates Warning, which has influenced a lot of technical bands but also typical melodci bands, like Vanden Plas which has elements of hair-metal (yes, that's right) or Wolverine which at times can sound like art rock and.....
After that confussion, I'm more than ready to accept suggestions...
 Avant-GArde Metal - which would include bands like Diablo Swing, Unexpect, Agalloch -which could also go into the extrememetal genre-Pelican, the ALMIGHTY Kayo Dot, and bands "such as" (to use an expression that makes me sound more clever than I am) The Iraq, Southafrica, they don't have maps, why would be? b*****ds! Sorry, my mind flew away... This metal-subdivision will make my mind collapse....
Well, as long as I'm a member of all metal teams, I agree with whatever everybody agrees...
 (just kidding..)By the way, to the wise member who just said, in such a philosophical, deep way, "
metal isn't prog", well, the only true thing here is that you are unworthy of prog and of the countless hours of listening to a MILLION bands most "prog" bands have before being able to come up with something original.... Go and listen to Yes, King Crimson and Genesis...and call yourself "prog-fan" because of that... Funny how most pop-hip/hop fans will be more open-minded that you.... |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 15:44
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^^ agreed ... but it would depend on how we define "avant". I guess it would work if we move the quirky avant bands to tech. In that scenario Tool would be in Post/Avant ... would you agree with that?
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 15:47
Tool would be a difficutl case...they don't belong with DT and those.... They aren't extreme... they don't belong in the same "technical" style of Cynic and others... They would have to go to avan-garde, though they are not "as avant garde" (whatever that means) as bands like Unexpect or Diablo Swing.... Or, better yet, to win me a hug from Jody, let's get rid of tool altogether!   /......................
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 15:49
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^ I think that bands like Unexpect or Diablo Swing Orchestra would go to tech/extreme ... Post/Avant would be for "calmer" bands - either true Post Metal bands or Experimental Prog Metal bands which aren't quirky/extreme enough for tech/math.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 16:05
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It's a problem.... Unexpect and Diablo Swing really are more..."wild" to use a term, savage, violent.....Yes, the "post" bands are calmer (sometimes TOO calm As I mentioned, what are bands like Spiral Arch? Technical? You bet (that's THEIR selling point)... But extreme? But, again, you can't find ten inches of melody in that band.... so where does it go? where? oh Great Spirits of Warrant, help me.... |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 16:07
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Noone said it would be easy ... How about this:
BTW: Spiral Architect fits perfectly in Tech/Extreme, as does Arcturus. Adding "Avant" to this genre makes it even clearer.  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 16:14
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That's a great idea!
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Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 16:19
| Theres no doubt in my mind why it shouldn't be...it's like mushing art rock(old) neo and symphonic together...kind of. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 16:23
It is too.
The Third sub-genre now looks like the Metal equal of the existing Experimental/Post Rock sub-genre. ------------- What? |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 17:32
One could say that about other genres - Symphonic proggers tend towards lengthy multi part suites, RIO/Avant-Garde usually revel in dissonance & "un-harmony", Space Rockers drone on, though not like Krautrockers, Folk Prog never breaks out of centuries old melodic structures etc .. I believe that what you see as rigidity is in fact some basic template for a genre or sub-genre. Yes, many metal acts, prog or not, aim for heaviness. But would you also state that all folk prog groups keep to a pastoral sound ? That is a basic approach in that genre, but many so-called folkies do add other musical colours to their compositions. Comus is described as folk prog, but I wouldn't compare them to Tull or the Strawbs. There are many cherished groups from the 70s that are listed under the "symphonic" tag. But some wrote extended songs, others kept to more manageable lengths, some adapted classical themes, some stole them outright, others melded many styles, such as Genesis with the Music Hall influence. Saying that a lot of music in a specific sub-genre sounds alike begs the question - What would you expect ? That they sound completely different ??? Genesis & PFM are symphonic. Genesis & PFM have their sound & followed their own progressions over their career, and while they've maintained their own individual identities, one cannot help but notice some similarities. So if you want to say that you don't like this or that type of music, then fine, you know what you like, I don't. But dismissing it because a lot of it sounds similar to your ears ? After all, to repeat myself, that is the definition of a genre, that a certain type of music is composed of certain elements, to the point that a commonality can be heard among different bands. So review your comments, switch the post-metal tag to another subgenre, then add in the usual description for that genre & wonder why you may not have the same reaction when it comes to genres that you prefer  ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 17:35
Ditto. P.S> Tool belongs in Heavy Prog. Period. With Rush. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 17:37
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I still think the site can be run with 3-5 subgenres. We have WAAAAYYY too many subdivisions. Hell, if we were being completely fair, we'd subdivide until every band had their own subgenre. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 17:57
No! I say we have to go on until we finally uncover the great "romanian-epic-legendary-transylvanian-death-non-growling-post-antro-towering-metal" sub genre that's been hidden from us the last thousand years!
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Posted By: jikai55
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 18:02
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Genre recommendation: Post-Neogoth Avant-Raga Symphfusion! -------------
I like cheese and I like metal! --Mikael Åkerfeldt |
Posted By: pianomandust
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 18:28
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It may be a good idea to divide the progressive metal genre, but I believe that the broader the genres are, the better. After all, if it truly is progressive, it will probably progress even more beyond set structures and defining qualities of styles. If it didn't, it just wouldn't be progressive. May I suggest: Traditional prog metal (like Dream Theater, FW, SymphX, and some newer bands like Redemption, etc.),Extreme Prog Metal (like Dillinger, Unexpect, Meshuggah, Spiral Architect, etc.)
Post Metal/Avant Guarde - (Agalloch, Giant Squid, Neurosis, Virgin Black, etc.)
I think any more than 3 subgenres will just be too much to keep up with. We would have to keep coming up with new categories. Surely prog metal bands of all types can fit into these categories, and if not completely, the editors can weigh out the styles of the bands and what characteristics they follow the most. Please don't create 16 genres just to have to add more later. The broader, the better. Just my 2 cents:-)
------------- and then there was music... |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 19:13
I think that album is still being written as we speak. After all, coming up with that musical mix & its' attendant genre (or description< if you will) would take a lot out of anyone. But I expect the album will come out shortly after Guns n Roses Chines Democracy. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 19:14
I'll see what I can do ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!" 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 19:17
As the Sun has only enough fuel for the next 4.5 billion years I expect we'll be playing Chinese Democracy in the dark.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 19:19
Maybe Axl is actually waiting for China to become a democracy for him to release the album...
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 19:19
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Hey, I just came up with the "genres dilemma" solution. We divide the groups up like this -Can't you see it's prog, kinda prog, proggy, arguably almost prog, disputably prog and finally prog that i alone like. Or, to really start up the opinion firestorms, popular prog & unpopular prog; which would be - in the first group Symphonic, Metal, Folk, Eclectic/Crossover/Heavy Prog, then the other group - Pretend Jazz/Zeuhl/Raga-Indo/Rio-Avant-Garde/Krautrock/Post-Rock Of course, I would need to ask for some patience on PA members' part as I sort out the two groupings. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 21:21
| I much rather prefer just two genres: "obscure" bands and "unobscure" or "sold-out, commercial, not-so-prog-because-of-success" bands.... In that way, symphonic will have its representatives in both genres... art rock will have representatives in both genres.... Zeuhl and Rio will have representatives only in the "obscure" (read intellectual) genres, while metal, for some strange reason, will be entirely in the second genre, even though some of their artists have to work in fast food restaurants in order to pay the mortgage on their cheap wal-mart guitars.... |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: September 18 2007 at 22:34
I wonder how many trolls consider that to be a good idea |
Posted By: FruMp
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 01:20
I'm a prog fan and a metal fan, I'd advise you that it's a bad idea to comment like that on prog metal and metal in general and stereotype metal in such a way if you want people to respect your opinion. Metal has the potential to be more varied than other genres as it can venture into the heaviest territories of music and the lightest. Take Mr Bungle for example, they're a metal band and they have just about every genre under the sun incorporated into their music. And in my opinion I think you could justify a new subgenre of metal here, something along the lines of post/avant-garde metal as it is siginificantly different to conventional prog metal to justify the change. I don't think you could justify a prog-power distinction or a jazz-metal distinction or anything like that as the line would be too hard to draw and it simply wouldn't be worth it. ------------- 
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 02:54
I hate this kind of argument - it's a bit demagogical. With the three new categories each category would still contain a broad range of bands, and surely not less than 50 bands (more like 150). Explain to me how that would be pidgeon-holing ... when these genres would still be much more general than the current sub genres for prog rock. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: FruMp
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 05:10
So long as bands are correctly assigned to genres there is no practical argument against having more genres, it only aids people in finding similar bands and music, whilst people may not see a need for them or may have a prejudice against more sub-genres, they are genuinely useful to a lot of people. -------------
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Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: September 19 2007 at 05:16
What are the defining features of this genre? I'm just asking basically out of ignorance, since I've long given up on all the metal genres other than the "major" ones like thrash, death, black and stuff like that.
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Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 13:52
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post metal is related to metal the same as post rock is related to rock. whereas post rock outfits use traditionaly rock intrusments to create something completely different (drums, electric guitar, etc.) same can be said of post metal (heavy distortion , heavy vocals). they both share long, meandering passages of instrumental build ups and a droning, sludgishness (hence sludge metal) quality. Help? and if i may, the sub genres, in my opinion, are a good thing. they help people navigate, help them discover new bands. i for one really do not enjoy half of the music in prog metal, wouldnt listen to most of it and thus, am put off to browsing for new artists within that genre. thats the whole reason why i suggested the new category thing, the whole reason the colabs split up art rock. Over time, with endless experimentation and a broadening of musical horizons, more bands will play more and more different music and more categories WILL be needed. 40 years ago there was no such thing as "metal". meshuggahcertainly did not exist, could not exist. I guess i am rambling now. but i see the categories as a good thing, a helpful thing that serves and important purpose, to help people unfamiliar with certain music, to find it. simple enough.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: Time Signature
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 14:13
Hey, thanks for the answer. It's always good to learn new stuff.
I see why you find subgenres useful... it's just that there are so many now that I've given up trying to keep up with them, and the fact that there is an increasing tendency to break the boundaries of genres and create new hybrid ones doesn't exactly make things easier. So to me it's just metal.
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Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 14:26
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^ I disagree with that description of post metal, which is badly named IMO. Were as Post rock bands have used rock instrumentation to create music that has gone far beyond rock, post metal is still very much metal, though the two styles are similar in that they both use long meandering instrumental passages to build up the atmosphere of the songs. Its been discused before, cant remember what thread but it was in the polls section, that if the post metal term is to be used correctly then it would aply to bands like Kayo Dot, who have to taken a metal base and moved waaaay beyond that into something very different that still holds some similarities to metal (The Manifold curiosity perfectly illustrates this IMO). However, Kayo Dot are very much an Avant garde band and the post metal term is used to describe bands like Isis and Pelican.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: Hirgwath
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 17:35
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What will be very interesting, if metal is split up six ways, will be how people react to the dominance of metal. Obviously it was there before in terms of numbers, but now it will be clear to everyone upon entering the site.
------------- Skwisgaar Skwigelf: taller than a tree. Toki Wartooth: not a bumblebee. |
Posted By: Csejthe
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 19:04
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This thread is one humongous slippery slope fallacy.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/VomitalxX"> 
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Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 19:19
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^^^ Care to elaborate? -------------
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Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 20:46
Personally, I'd rather stare at the SUn as it is now, than be forced to listen to any NEW GnR. I bought Appetit for Destruction shortly after its' release as I had read some reviews that mentioned AC/DC & Aerosmith inlfuences (believe it or not, these were rare for a time in the mid 80s). 6 months later, Child of Mine starts playing on the radio & my roommate sees that I have the album. Til then, I thought it was a good hard rockin' album, nothing special. We went on to play the chit out of the album, though mainly 5-6 songs. These days, there's 4 songs that I still really "dig". But I still think the album is overhyped & much success is owed to two facts - 1 ) It had 3 BIG hit singles on the radio AND MTV (when MTV mattered), & 2) They were just about the only new hard rock group that put out anything that matched their idols' classic albums. ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: debrewguy
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 20:50
Seems a good idea. But might I suggest that we change "intellectual" to "elitist snot" genre Or we could divide them into popular & not popular. But then, some around here would argue that more than one fan is too many to qualify a band for inclusion in the "not popular" genre ------------- "Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case. |
Posted By: Csejthe
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 22:15
"We're thinking about putting in 3 more genres..." "Next thing you know we'll have avant-potato-mathcorn-metal sections! Every band will be in a different genre!" http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/VomitalxX">
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Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: September 20 2007 at 22:20
Well, not everyone is thinking that way. The Prog Metal genre is big and there are bands in the same genre that don't sound alike so it would be easier to navigate the genre if we divided them into groups. Personally I would prefer Tags instead of making new genres. -------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 01:20
No.. It's intellectual.... Please! Remember: Obscurity=quality=higherintelligence...simple as that...
Mmm....We have to create then three genres: non-popular, where we put all the intellectual stuff that about 1% of the popullation of the island southwest of Western Samoa have heard; prog-qualified-popular, where we'll put the bands that have enough (read: as few as possible) fans to still be considered honorable prog; and finally, unworthy-popular-prog, where we put the bands that have really hit it, if not BIG as in "mainstream", at least SEMI-BIG as in "prog-mainstream".........
.....and then we create a genre for a single band: the DreamTheater genre, where we put that band....as isolated as possible of the "honorable" prog....
No, seriously, I'm all for the split...in THREE...
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 02:26
 Spot on!------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 09:25
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i actually like the tag idea, if thats a possibility and if we're thinking of the same thing. keep the genres as they are (or were as in the case of art rock though that'd be too late to change now) and add a "tag" that describes the sound of the band. or related bands. any thoughts? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 09:44
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^ tagging is available on my website ... I think it will not be implemented here any time soon. I think for the archives splitting prog metal in three genres is the best approach that actually has a chance to be approved of by M@x *and* can be implemented quickly.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: keiser willhelm
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 09:52
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fair enough. i guess just liked the idea because then i wouldnt have to spend the time reading all those band biographies ;) what three categories would you choose? ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/KeiserWillhelm" rel="nofollow - What im listening to |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 11:25
Its hardley dominant, out of 3000 bands only 500 of them are currently metal, about the same as the old Art rock genre before it was split, and I think a couple of others have over 400 bands listed. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 11:28
Neither is electronic prog, post rock, indo prog, or space rock. Let's boot them too. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 14:50
I love your website Mike but I just wouldn't want the tagging system to be implemented here.. Sorry, it's a little confusing, and it makes classification difficult, and as much as music defies classification, is necessary for research.... ------------- 
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Posted By: ZowieZiggy
Date Posted: September 28 2007 at 20:22
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I'm truely fed up with all these sub-genres.
I like Symph and Neo-prog a lot. There are an incredible amount of bands in these two genres and they do not need to be split up. Would anyone like to have a "Genesis", "Arena", "ELP" etc. related music" genre ?
I don't. And it's the same for the metal one (which not fully belongs here anyway).
Cheers. ------------- ZowieZiggy |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 29 2007 at 11:05
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^ I don't think the sub genres are to blame for your being "fed up" ... it's rather the threads where we discuss them over and over which I find really annoying.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: September 30 2007 at 01:38
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My suggestion would be to consolidate and subdivide. We don't need more than six or seven major prog genres. From there, you can subdivide them (prog metal -> speed/power/tech/death/extreme/football/sludge/symphonic/cheesy/epic/avant-garde/minimalist metal) and not have a horrible mess for a navbar. We don't need genres like proto-prog and Canterbury Scene. They can be merged and left as subgenres. This is prog, people. No two bands are going to be alike. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: September 30 2007 at 05:27
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genres are not about bands which are "alike" ... they're about bands which share similar traits.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 06:36
Which is precisely why we don't need so many genres. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 07:18
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^ care to elaborate?
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: MonkeyphoneAlex
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 07:57
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Prog Matal needs to be broken up. Having 5 brand new genres, however, will get confusing. I think the breakup should be done gradually. Perhaps we could decide on 4 or 5 new genres, and make one each month, and then whatever's left over in prog metal will be melodic prog. ------------- "Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is THE BEST." -FZ |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 08:18
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^ I think we'll settle for 3 genres ... but I like your idea of introducing them gradually. First we could "extract" the Post Metal / Experimental bands, and then - after a month of "getting used to" - the Tech/Extreme/Avant bands.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 08:45
Certainly. We're looking for threads that run among the groups. We're looking for looking for general traits. We're not looking for absolute miniscule genres to put everything into. I don't see why we need italian symphonic prog or canterbury scene or any of the new genres. What has been done, in my opinion, is the division into subgenres and re-listing as full genres. Prog metal may contain an eclectic mix of styles, but that doesn't mean you need to call it fifteen genres. It's prog metal. From there you can list subgenres, but you don't need them everywhere. My suggestion is to take that top navbar and kill off at least half of those genres and integrate them into other genres. From there, you can subdivide as necessary for any genre. But making more and more and more and more genres is just silly. You're just going to get more problems with genre-benders (go ahead, put Dark Suns into one -- you'd have to decide between their first and second albums). In my opinion (you're free to disagree as I'm sure you do), we should kill off the clutter and have a small number of large genres which can be narrowed (note the word can -- I will get to that in a moment) to more specific subgenres (i.e. click the name to go to the prog metal page which has all prog metal, and from there you can navigate to the avant-garde only and whatnot). Another benefit of this is that people will be able to explore the genres more fully. Honestly, I'm relatively unfamiliar with italian symphonic prog because I rarely navigate my way to that page. Sounds to me like symphonic prog, and the description says: "Indeed so much progressive music has emerged and continues to emerge from Italy that some people believe it belongs in its own sub-genre." I can't disagree more with this view. You can make it a subdivision of symphonic prog, but it doesn't need its own area. It's still just symphonic prog. And if it were in the symphonic prog page, I'd have quite a bit more exposure to it. To reiterate my point, I think we should consolidate the genres and make subdivisions to those genres. I would probably never have checked uneXpecT if it were in some obscure avant-death section (granted, I knew the band before it was listed here, but the point is that you may occasionally want to stray from your comfort zone to access new music -- the smaller we make the genres, the less you see from other genres, and the less inclined you may be to experience other styles). |
Posted By: MonkeyphoneAlex
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 08:52
Italian symph is in it's own genre because it has an entirely different sound than other symphonic bands. Listen to Premiata Forneria Marconi or Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso and then listen to The Flower Kings and tell me they belong together. ------------- "Information is not knowledge. Knowledge is not wisdom. Wisdom is not truth. Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love. Love is not music. Music is THE BEST." -FZ |
Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 09:02
Anglagard versus Yes versus Spock's Beard. Then listent to Aton's and tell me why it shouldn't be in Symphonic Prog. //EDIT: Removed clutter quotes. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 11:27
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^The problems with your examples, Gamemako, is that Canterbury and Italian Symphonic Prog were established in the late 60's and 70's, along with Krautrock, as independant styles of music that grew up alongside the rest of prog, they are not genres created by this site but have been recognised for 30+ years, who are we to disregard that? Plus, I believe that ISP isa bit of a mis-nomeaner in that not all bands are symphonic and that the genre should be known as Rock Progressive Italiano (RPI), at least thats what I recall reading from our resident expert micky so I'll bow down to his superior knowledge here.
------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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