Is Steve Hackett's guitar work... Weird? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Chus

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 17:02

TheLamb wrote:

Well Heartbreaker could be tapped with two hands but its unnecissary... my bands guitarist showed me and it could also be done with one hand aswel...

As for the argument about Steve Hackett inventing tapping I agree with the guy who said it dosen't matter. I also agree with the guy who said that the other guy is just trying to provoke the other other guy because he is silly :P It would be best if things would not get personal, IMO.

Well... during this thread my opinions have changed about Hackett... not because of anything specific people said in this thread... I just came to acceptance with the fact that he sometimes dosen't sit perfectly tight on the rythm and dosen't always hit the exact notes when he pulls, ect... Its just OK. It's a part of his style and although it is not a very good attribute in itself, together with the way Hackett plays the guitar, it's simply OK... And ofcourse he has all the good attributes which have been widely spoken of in this thread so there is no need to repeat them...

To the guy who said tapping isn't that difficult.... Bullsh*t... Well, single handed tapping is indeed considered easy, but that has exceptions aswel... As for two handed tapping... Well most beginner guitarists CAN play two handed tapping... It's not one of those techniques that the very basics of require great techincal ability. But playing complex and non-static tapping patterns is HARD. And if your talking about the usage of tapping in an artistic and emotional way, no one, and I mean NO ONE (that I have heard of) does it better than Hackett...

I have a non related question for Ivan... What reason do you have to believe that Tony Banks wasn't a fan of soloing?

I agreed with some of what you and Progger said. Tony was a fan of soloing, in fact many times you might notice that he wanted to be the main soloist of the band (although Hackett had his share of solos: Fountain Of Salmacis, Musical Box, Can-utility and The Coastliners, part of Supper's Ready, Firth Of Fifth); it was more evident by the time of Selling England By The Pound and later in Wind & Wuthering Tony was the main soloist in Genesis all the way, while Hackett was put on the isolated corner more than often.

Edited by Chus - April 22 2007 at 17:10

Jesus Gabriel

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 17:00

Time to make some replies, some pleasent, and other not so in the first one will only make a couple of precisions:

Progger wrote:

Ivan,

Why do you think you can bully people around on this site just because their oppinions difffers to yours? It's the agressive tone of your posts that will drive people away from the forums, not my oppinions of which I am entitled to! Learn to accept that not everyone thinks Genesis are the bees knees. It seems it's OK to have threads bashing ELP [a much better band than Genesis IMO] but as soon as anything is said negative about Genesis a pack mentality develops and there are calls for people to be banned. What makes this forum great is freedom of speech and to express oppinions, whether you like Genesis or not.

I have not bullied you Progger, only gave you facts and EIGHT (8) historic quotes, and asked you to prove one is false or at least give one your's.....Have you??? The answer is......................................NO.

Erik, Certified, Chus, HT and myself have give you different opinions, I given you quotes, you gave let me see...................Nothing except an inaccurate example about Cream that Certified has proven wrong.

Give one quote to support your claims...ONLY ONE

I would never ask to ban you, honestly I have more important things to worry about.

I will re-phrase one point that annoyed you. ''The lead instrument in Genesis music was 95% keyboard'', and that is not a team band by any stretch of the imagination IMO. I stand by my statement that Genesis were the most keyboard driven band outside of ELP. It's well documented that Hackett was often frustrated in the studio due to his ideas being ignored. Suerly you don't need me to supply a reference?

Well Progger in the 2001 interview from the GUITARIST Magazine, Steve said about Nursery Cryme and Selling England by the Pound:

There was a lot of twinning going on with keyboards at the time, SO IT’S HARD TO FIGURE WHAT’S KAYBOARDS AND WHAT’S GUITAR.

It sounds like guitar emulating keyboards, IT’S DOING STRETCHES THAT GUITARS CAN’T NORMALLY DO, THAT’S WHY I CAME WITH THE IDEA FROM.

http://www.stevehackett.com/top.html

So.......If I have to choose between believing you and one of the most respected musicians who has always been honest with his audience like Steve Hackett......I choose Steve

But, I want to believe it's not your fault, if a trained musicians with more than three decades of experience, says that in early Genesis it's hard to discriminate between the guitar and keyboarsa...What can we expect from you?

I have never said anything derogatory about Hackett. In fact I said he is a very good guitar player but not exceptional. His technique is often flawed & could not improvise beyond what was rehearsed. I have witnessed it myself when he tried to play an unreheared blues jam with some unfamiliar musicians. When Stuerner joined, Genesis would often jam out on stage for twenty minutes or more! I have seen Hackett live on numerous occasions but he has always 'played it safe' by sticking to what was rehearsed & the songs have absolutely no variation from the studio recordings.

Read your older posts, you have ebven called him a medocre guitar player not capable of playing in a band like Yes.

But tell me Jamming = virtuoso and making faithful renditions to a studio album = being limited?

Have you seen Hackett (You said you have) playng the Horizons or old Genesis Medley on acustic guitar?? Don't misundesrtand me, but I believe he's jamming.

Have you seen his Jazz DVD's with his broither? Also pure jamming.

Jamming is not a game ton prove how fast you create,, we're talking about a band that plays solid and structured music, not about a free jazz trio, when Peter and Steve left, they had to use Daryll Stuermer A JAZZ GUITAR PLAYER and required long jamming because Phil Collins loved to sit on the drums and play long passages.

Genesis music DOESN'T REQUIRED JAMMING IN THE EARLY YEARS, so Steve didn't used it, msot of his albums don't require Jamming, so he doesn't use it, but when required, he jams as any musician.

Also, despite my extensive research to back up Hackett's claims, Van Halen has never said that he was influenced by him. Here's a quote I found,'' Jimmy Page's landmark guitar solo on the song ''Heartbreaker'' was my inspiration for the trademark 2-hand clapping technique'' [Eddie Van Halen, 92]

Well your long research seems to be WRONG.

The MUSIC STREET JOURNAL WROTE:

Music Street Journal: Eddie Van Halen said that he learned the tapping technique from you.

http://www.musicstreetjournal.com/hackettinterview.htm

I don't know where you live, but in every country there's something called PRESS LAW,

The Press Law doesn't allow a magazine to quote a person without having evidence that he said what the magazine claims.

The Music Street Journal clearly states that Eddie Van Halen credited Steve Hackett for his tapping technique THIS HAS TO BE 100% TRUTH, OTHERWISE VAN HALEN WOULD OWN THE MUSIC STREET JOURNAL BECAUSE HE WOULD HAD SUED THEM FOR LYING.

It's not Ivan Melgar M, who says that Eddie Van Halen credited Steve Heckett for his tapping technique, IT'S THE MUSIC STREET JOURNAL IN AN OFFFICIAL PUBLICATION STILL ON LINE, SO IT HAS TO BE 100% ACCURATE.

I guess you won't pretend to know more about laws than me?

You may also be interested to know that this technique is sometimes known by guitar connosoirs as ''w**kery'' and is quite easy to learn. ......just something I read whilst researching the technique!

So now that facts prove you're wrong...the once imaginative technique turns into w@nkery and it's easy to learn???????????..........Please be coherent

Now to a more pleasent issue:

erik neuteboom wrote:

Remarkable Ivan what you told about Tony Banks and his 'Steve Hackett' joke. Tony Banks is infamous for his passive agression so I won't be surprised if it was more than a joke

....

No, I didn't told it Erik

it's a quote from the FAQ in the Genesis Official site.

I guess it's a job, but I suspect that the relations bewteen Tony and Steve were tense since "Voyage of the Acolyte" was eleased, Tony stated that it wasn't right for Genesis mnembers in that moment to make a solo career, despite this Steve not only released an acclaimed album but worked with every Genesis ,member except Tony.

Now, when an official site has to wriite a disclaimer as the one I quoted from the Genesis Official site, probably there's something of truth hidding inside a big joke, most surely Tony, Mike and Phil did not mutilated SO on purpose, but without Steve to check his parts and work with the production, most surely nobody cared too much in re-working and editing them.

By the way, did you realise that the instrumental part of The Cinema Show was a first sign of the And Then There Were Three line-up? I noticed that during the latest The Musical Box gig (SEBTP tour) when only Rutherford, Collins and Banks remained on stage to do their captivating instrumental interplay as .... a trio

Yes I agree partially. maybe not the first trio but yes the change of an era, the peak of the Genesis traditional sound (Dark, atmospheric and somehow mysterious) started with Trespass (Phillips approach has similarities to Steve's) but went stronger in Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot and the scary - aggressive versions of Live 73.

SEBTP has a friendlier sound and general atmosphere, even the cover by a lady who's name I can't remembe is very cute, even lovely, while Trespass (With the Knife tearing the cover), Nursery Cryme (With Little Henry's head in the front) and Foxtrot with the fox hunting and the seven shrouded me with a cross all painted by Paul Whitehead.

SEBT except Dancing with the Moonluit Knight and Firth of Fith is more direct, easier to accept by the general audience, the atmosphere is less dense, it's almost as a brother of A Trick of the Tale, then The Lamb was something out of Genesis normal evolution but W&W where Steve collaborated more, is a darker album more in the vein of Fxtrot than in SEBTP.

Thanks God somebody else noticed this, I was starting to think I was the only one.

Now Cert:

Certif1ed wrote:

It is entirely possible that Van Halen had never heard Hackett, but it seems doubtful that Hackett would make the claim that Eddie got the idea from him without evidence or personal acknowledgement. Don't forget that when Rock stars do reviews, they're usually thinking off (the tops of) their heads...

Checking the interview of The Music Street Journal seems that Van Halen really mentioned Steve, the issue is mentioned by the magazine not by Steve, so I guess it must be true.

One more

TheLamb wrote:

I have a non related question for Ivan... What reason do you have to believe that Tony Banks wasn't a fan of soloing?

Maybe the chosen word is not correct (Maybe he's a fan but doesn't solo too much), but it's a deduction based in the fact that Tony was the main musical songwritter of Genesis, this band has less one instruent solos than any other band, normally even the instrumental sections are created by an interplay of two, three and mostly of four instruments and not by the keys as in the case of ELP or Yes for example.

You rarely will listen a solo like the one in Close to the Edge or Rondo in a Genesis composition, as a fact, no Genesis members did solos frequently.

You can take Wakeman solo from Close to the Edge and the song will not be a masterpiece but surely still a strong track, but you can't take Banks from the Genesis equation because his sound is too blended with the rest of the instruments.

This is the main criticism of people who believe a band is as good as how many solos they make, if had a buck for each time I heard "Genesis is crap and Banks is not a virtuoso because they don't makes solos" (You can change the names Hackett, Rutherford and Collins in the same phrase), I would be rich.

This of course is absurd, a solo must be made only when required to enhance the effect desired by the band, not every 2 or 3 minutes, unless the band's music is based in soloing.

I always seen Genesis as a team work rather than in as a collection of solo efforts and that's their main strenght.

Iván.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 22 2007 at 17:20

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 16:51

Steve's a pretty good guitarist, but he's not a pyrotechnics wiz; in that I mean he is not as technically proficient as Steve Vai or whomever, but he had a pretty good ear for melody, so... its a matter of preference at that point.

My only gripes about his playing style is that his solos are low energy and not nearly as good as his soli parts with the keyboard. I would put him in a similar category with Brian may from Queen, who also was not the most energetic soloist, but has a beautiful melodic style. However, Steve is inferior to Brian in the soloing department. Especially in "The Musical Box" (GASP) his solo starts out great, but falls off on the end, dropping the baton that had juggled around frenetically in the band up until that point. For someone who could write great melodies and wrote out most of his solos ahead of time, why are his solos not as good as Brian's? i dont know.

i will concede that the energy in "The Musical Box" solo is pretty good until the middle part where Steve just twiddles around, almost leaving the key for no apparent reason, its like just got lazy and didn't feel like making the solo awesome by writing out the rest of it well.

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 15:12

Umm.... I like his playing. It is kinda weird though. But compared to other prog bands? It's not weird at all. I never really liked his tone however.

TheLamb

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 15:07

Well Heartbreaker could be tapped with two hands but its unnecissary... my bands guitarist showed me and it could also be done with one hand aswel...

I have a non related question for Ivan... What reason do you have to believe that Tony Banks wasn't a fan of soloing?

Edited by TheLamb - April 22 2007 at 15:11

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 10:49

Progger wrote:

You may also be interested to know that this technique is sometimes known by guitar connosoirs as ''w**kery'' and is quite easy to learn. ......just something I read whilst researching the technique!

Peace!

Other techniques too - particularly alternate picking, or "Shredding" have unfortunately come to be known under the term you used, simply because of the number of guitarists who use the techique by way of technical bluff, rather than in a tasteful and artistic manner.

However, some sources (including the highly accurate Wikipedia...) note that Eddie got inspiration from Jimmy Page performing pull-offs on an open string - Page did not use the "tapping" technique, so this link is almost entirely erroneous.

Did you remember which Cream songs contain two-handed tapping, because I've just been listening to "Disraeli Gears" and can't hear any.

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 07:40

I prefer his solo career over his Genesis output but it's all good.

erik neuteboom View Drop Down

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 03:59

Remarkable Ivan what you told about Tony Banks and his 'Steve Hackett' joke. Tony Banks is infamous for his passive agression so I won't be surprised if it was more than a joke

....

Edited by erik neuteboom - April 22 2007 at 08:17

Progger

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 02:27

Ivan,

You may also be interested to know that this technique is sometimes known by guitar connosoirs as ''w**kery'' and is quite easy to learn. ......just something I read whilst researching the technique!

Peace!

Edited by Progger - April 22 2007 at 07:35

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 19:02

erik neuteboom wrote:

I hope a record company will release the BBC 1977 live recordings of the W&W tour because it does justice to Hackett his awesome contribution to Genesis rather than the poor Seconds Out on which, as you mentioned, it's like as if somebody has lowered the volume button of Hackett his amplifier ...

That's a good wish, seems for what I seen and read that the relations were not good with Steve since the W&W sessions, if you got the Genesis Live Film (With Bruford), seems to me like a band formed by three friends (Tony, Phil and Mike) plus two guests Steve playing very far froom them in the left and Bill Bruford on who the camera hardly focus.

Some statements done made this issue seem suspicious:

2. Why was Steve Hackett mixed out of 'Seconds Out' ?

Like a lot of things surrounding Steve Hackett's departure, this myth has been helped along thanks to a humorous quip which has been twisted over the years.

On the 'Genesis – A History' video which was released in 1990, Tony Banks jokes that once Steve announced that he was to leave the band: "We just mixed him out of the rest of the album and carried on!".

Sadly the humour which accompanies this quote has always been overlooked and it tends to be taken at face value. In fact, if you listen to Seconds Out, of course you can hear Steve Hackett's guitar along with the other instruments.

However, the whole sound of the album is very clean and polished, and as such loses some of the rawness and energy of the band as it actually sounded on stage – this seems to have given rise to the myth of Steve's being 'mixed out'.

http://www.genesis.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=18

I don't know if it's a joke, I want to think so, but the instrument that suffers more in that supposedly polished mix is Steve's guitar.

Iván

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 18:57

I have never had a problem hearing Hackett in Genesis. Its why I became such a big fan of his, before he went solo.

Thing is when I used to say to my friends how much I enjoyed his playing, they'd comment on how you could rarely hear him.

It was then that Irealised that people hear things in different ways.

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 18:17

Funny to read your story Ivan because so many progheads are confused when they listen to 76-77 Genesis: it's very hard to recognize the sound of a guitar and a keyboard! By the way, I hope a record company will release the BBC 1977 live recordings of the W&W tour because it does justice to Hackett his awesome contribution to Genesis rather than the poor Seconds Out on which, as you mentioned, it's like as if somebody has lowered the volume button of Hackett his amplifier ...

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 18:11

erik neuteboom wrote:

When Hackett left Genesis in 1977, for many progheads Hackett sol was the 'real Genesis' and if you listen to especially Voyage Of An Acolyte and Spectral Mornings, it is the real symphonic prog Genesis

That's a good point Erik, Genesis sounds more keyboard oriented than they really are (Despite it's clear Tony was never a fan of soloing) beause the guitar sounded almost as a second keyboard.

As Cert explained the double handed tapping technique is hitting the strings almost as a piano key, so Hackett solos are usually mistaken for keyboards, take Firth of Fifth, I have a cousin who is an amazing metal guitar player, he's like 10 years younger than me so he always came to my house to borrow me the Maiden or Sabbath albums.

One day he came while I was listening Firth of Fifth,and he just couldn't believe Steve's solo was guitar, I had to take my DVD copy of one Gabriel Genesis era concert (Belgium TV) and when the camera focused on Steve's fingers then and only then he believed me it was really a guitar with no aditional device.

He talked me about the fabulous MIDI guitar module he just got (You attach this gear to your guitar or bass to make it sound like a second keyboard.....Martin Rosser uses it with Magenta) but he never knew that in the 70's somebody was making that kind of sound, with nothing except his fingers, it's not what he would ever play but his jaw was in the floor.

This atmosphere started to fade not when Steve left, but already in The Lamb, when their sound changed radically to return in lesser degree with ATOTT and more clearly in W&W.

So Geensis sound was not a product of Tony OR Steve, was a joint effort of Tony AND Steve combining their sounds, amazing team work.

When Hackett left Genesis, neither Mike on studio (more limited as guitar player even when a very solid bass player) or Daryll on stage (Great Jazz player though), but Steve continued using the same technique so he blended with almost every keyboardist he played with, I believe he does the exact work with Julian Colbeck in Tokyo Tapes, but Tony had nobody to work this with him.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 21 2007 at 18:20

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 17:46

When Hackett left Genesis in 1977, for many progheads Hackett sol was the 'real Genesis' and if you listen to especially Voyage Of An Acolyte and Spectral Mornings, it is the real symphonic prog Genesis

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 17:43

Nothing controversial from me, Hackett is one of my favourite players, I find it difficult to fault any of his playing.

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 17:08

soundspectrum wrote:

not so much weird as it is unique

His weirdness is unique.

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 16:45

Progger wrote:

(...)

First people were claiming he invented the tapping technique but it was proved it has been around since the 50's.

I have only found documentary evidence that two-handed tapping has been in use since 1969.

Single-handed tapping has been around much longer - perhaps as far back as the violinist Locatelli - but what you can do with it is limited in comparison, so it's fair to consider two-handed tapping as a newer (and different) technique.

Progger wrote:

Now people are claiming he was the first rock guitarist to use it

Poppy cock...I suggest you go listen to some Cream albums for starters.

Which tracks?

Or are you still referring to single-handed tapping?

I've been trying to find out where Hackett might have got the idea for two-handed tapping from, and have pretty much turned a blank - I can't even link him to Emmett.

Edited by Certif1ed - April 21 2007 at 16:47

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 16:36

For me it took many, many years before I could really play something to impress my friends and family, it's a long and tough road if you want to play guitar seriously!

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 16:33

Atomic_Rooster wrote:

If your fingers hurt that much, then you haven't been playing consistently enough or haven't fixed the tension or action. I practice around 30 mins to an hour a day and don't feel pain when I play for 2-3 hours straight.

Yes, probably, I'm tunniing it and graduating the tension with the mic adaptor (still don't trust that much in my ears) but it's normal when you started two weeks ago, but yes normally they hurt after the first hour and a half.

At my age (42) it's only for fun, not to be a pro LOL.

Iván

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 16:28

If your fingers hurt that much, then you haven't been playing consistently enough or haven't fixed the tension or action. I practice around 30 mins to an hour a day and don't feel pain when I play for 2-3 hours straight.

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