Genesis/Yes comparison

ken4musiq wrote: It's not Proggerbashing my friend, It's that I hate dogmas except in Religion.>. Why do you accept dogmas in religion?  Is it because you've just given up on any notion of religious faith? By the contrary, Dogma is a truth that MUST only be accepted by faith, there's no requirement for a prove, by the contrary no prove in against is valid.   A dogma is the ultimate prove of faith.  I think one of the reasons musical discourse can become dogmatic is that music is like religion to people and has been so closely linked historically to religion, in the most romantic sense if nothing else. It expresssed in ineffable It is easier in academia to just go along with the ship and those who fight against status quo usually end up losing  the battle.  Case in point, myself who fought against the grain for over ten years in academia, both as a student and teacher. I realized that they really do not want to teach students becasue to teach them to think would fundamentally challenge the status quo.  We can't have workers who think after all.  Somebody needs to move the hands of the clock in Metropolis. There is something to be said for that.  The machine functions best when it is well oiled. In any event, I applaud you for railing against the status quo , taking the heat for it and coming out ahead. I think one expects that from lawyer. I think there is some merit to what progger says.  I think that Genesis has always been overrated and probably Pink Floyd as well.  There are certainly bands that have been underrated, Gentle Giant and VDGG. I think  a more interesting question is to ask why they are so popular rather than complaining about their popularity. I would rather hear one strong, biased opinion than one hundred rants of how great some group is. The fundamental idea in progressive rock is that it is not based on popularity.  So no matter how many people love Genesis or Pink Floyd, it does not matter because that in itself does not grant value to the music.  I think that Genesis and Pink Floyd are so popular because of what they were saying not only lyrically but in their music as well addresssing aspects of alienation so fundamental to modernity and perhaps trying to find a way out, a re-humanization of mankind so to speak. But most of the prog bands sang about these themes, as did GG and VDGG. That quest is still so crucial and the reason why prog won't die. For me, listening to prog caused me to take the road less traveled and that has not  alway been easy.  A matter of a fact it is down right impossible in today's world.  I wonder how many people who listen to prog have made a similiar choice in how they have lived their lives

Ken, I know a lot of members of this and other forums who don't like Genesis, and simply I don't care, most of them give reasons and arguments that are valid for them and deserve respect because are honest.

But phrases as:

• "Yes is better and those who don't agree are ignorants"
• "Genesis is overrated in PA, outside this site nobody cares about them" (I got statistics from two other sites frrom the Progressive Rock Webring where Genesis is better than here, of course he dissapeared)
• "What I say is the truth and those who don't agree are stupids"
• "Genesis fans are corrupt who have nothing to do but manipulate statistics"
• "After this thread is evident that most of the people here don't like Genesis" (When I counted the posts, Genesis was winning by far and again he vanished)
• Classic Rock Magazine considers Yes better than Genesis" (Classic Rock Magazine considers Kilroy was Here [Mr. Robotto] one of the best 30 conceptual albums ever and Charlie Watts better drummer than Collins, Palmer and Bruford [in that order])

Only prove that the guy is an arrogant flamer and fanboy.

Every time I found a flaw in his argument and asked him to explain it, the guy vanishes in the air and starts a new thread in other place just to attack Genesis at any cost.

I love to argue, as a fact I always discuss with Micky about ELO, but we never had problems, always our debates end with a joke, I debated with Trotsky about politics, with Sean about Religion and Kansas, and there's always something in common, at the end we are as friends as when we started, never lost temper and never attack each other, because we're here to discuss, but with class.

Progger lives to accuse the owners, administrators, collaborators, reviewers and members of Prog Archives of corruption, has done it at least 20 times, but he keeps comming...WHY? If we are so corrupt why does he insists?

And honestly, it's not hard to bash him, his arguments are so lame and lack of substance that seems he's a masochist asking to be bashed, I believe he loves to be proved wrong, his mouth (or fingers in the case of a PC keyboard) work at 100 MPH and his brain at 20 MPH.

When all this started I used to leave the threads but he insisted in bringing me back to bash him, and if he's a masochist....I'm a sadist in this case.

I seen threads in which not myself  but two or three members and sometimes 5 bash him and he insists, I think he finds some Freudian pleasure in being proved wrong.

Any merit his arguments may have are lost with this behaviour.

Iván

For me...Genesis transcend categorization.  Whereas Yes's work functions more as period pieces.  That's not to say I don't enjoy Yes a lot, but they don't mean anywhere near as much to me.

Pneubauer wrote: ^^^^ ivan is god of proggerbashing

It's not Proggerbashing my friend, It's that I hate dogmas except in Religion.

Let me tell you a story, when I graduated, my thesis was about the legal incompetibilities to be elected President of Prú. One of the teachers who was elected as jury on my grade said thet moral incapácity was equivalent to mental insanity due to the terms used in 1823 when our first Constitution was written (We had more than 20).

I said in my thesis that morality is a term that comes from the Greeks and implies the behaviour according to the standarts of society (Very rough here, I used 20 pages to talk abou morality).

Instead of having a 30 minutes graduation I had to deal with a three hour session, my mother and sister who went to see it were at the border of their seats because itwas almost a war between that jury and myself, we even usedthe Andrew Jackson Impeachement and the Richard Nixon case to prove that morality is a different thing that mental insanity, gladly that jury accepted my position as possible and I got a very high grade.

Somebody asked me why didn't I simply avoided that issue to make things easier, but I believe it was my duty to prevent younger students from being taught that crap, even if it would be harder for me.

The same is with Progger, he comes and says, "My opinion is the truth and anybody who doesn't accept it,  is an ignorant who knows nothing about music", well I don't accept this, even when I love Genesis I'm nobody to say it's a fact they were the best band, I give my opinion (and almost always add IMO or IMHO).

Sorry I can't deal with that, my atguments about politics and Religion with Sean and rotsky were long but absolutely respectful no one of us bashed the other because there were no reasons. When I argue with Micky it has a big percentage of joke between us, we enjoy it even when we agree in the basics.

But this guy  tries to teach us Prog using the Classic Rock Magazine, it's almost a joke!!!!!

If Progger wants to be arrogant, it's not my psoblem, but at least I ask arguments and at barely reliable sources, if somebody gives me The Classic Rock, the Rolling Stones Magazines or VH1 I have to post what kind of aberrations they write.

But what I hate more is that Progger writes something and then runs away not to answer questions.

Iván

LOSENDOS says - Genesis claim to fame is the unmatched sequence from Trespass to WAW 7 albums 8 disks. Noone else had a run like that. Which yes albums and which genesis album and what position were they.

So what about Yes from the initial album to Going for the One - all great albums - thats a total of 9 great albums.

The other point about Classic Album lists and drummers - you have to buy the mag and reply to the survey - so its a matter of peoples opinions rather than an expert one.  Isnt Led Zep 2 better than 4 - IMO it is

Winter Wine wrote: I was going to give a well detailed, Thought out response, When I noticed, This thread is stupid! I've been reading down through so many ridiculous, unnecessary comparisons! Both bands are fantastic and have made music that very few can equal! never mind better! If you have any respect for either bands music, You'll stop treating their work like two dogs chasing a bunny. It's getting very stupid.

                                                            One likes SEBTP better, one prefers Relayer, merely subjective. I'm with Reayer BTW.

Who made this law.  I don't know much, but I know my drumming and Bruford's best stuff was not with Crimson.  Fripp is a minimalist at heart and always wanted Bruford to just keep a steady pulse, esp with the second Bruford Fripp incarnation. Listen to Beelzebub or Five G to hear some of Bruford's more interesting drumming, and writing.

Collin's better album is Trick of the Tail; it is a drumming landmark again because of those wonderful tom-toms, which he now brings to the forefront although he uses them on The Lamb.  After Gabriel left he was able to come into his own as a drummer, and singer. I think I've come to realize that Trick is one of my fave Genesis albums; there is something beautiful and transcendent about the album that is very special. It has a very American folk rock sound, which I was listening to back in '76. Trick is probably inculcated into my way of hearing things because it was the perfect blend of prog rock and a lot of what I was hearing. I think it was also my first Genesis album.

The Ian Paice solo was The Mule unless they like Child in Time because he plays the cymbal bells. Speaking of which, where is Michael Giles, a better drummer than most of the people on the list as is Barry Barlowe who played with Jethro Tull, Robert Plant and Jimmy Page who are 'kinda' of rock big wigs. Steve Gadd played with Steely Dan and Paul Simon as well as Eric Clapton, but I guess they are all a bunch of no talents. And Virgil Donati, or is he just too good to be considered a 'rock' drummer.

Anybody who knows drumming would have Cobham at the top for being the first to play the high hat with his left hand rather then crossing, being one of the earliest drummers to go to a matched grip, and also and perfecting double bass drumming, which he does on Quadrant Four from Spectrum. He reinvented drumming. After that I'd have no problem with Bonham being second but Dave Grohl, isn't he a guitar player now? And Tommy Lee is there for his flying stunt.  I guess that Keith Emerson is the greatest keyboardist for doing it all fifteen years earlier.

PS  if all these record moguls, producers and the rock elite knew what they were talking about, we would be getting better music. Instead we have the endless crap that you hear now going on thirty+ years. Thanks for giving me an opportunity to rant.