Did Punk really kill prog all that much?

stonebeard wrote: Cygnus X-2 wrote: stonebeard wrote: Police = NOT punk. They were far better songwriters, far more creative, far better musicians than any of the punk I've heard from any time period, which I admit happily, is very limited. Just because a band plays up-tempo songs in 4/4 time does not mean they're punk. But Stewart Copeland often played polyrhythms under the 4/4. Are you using that to try and make the case for them being punk?

I wrote the wrong word, I shouldn't have used "but", however, I will say that in no way shape or form are The Police punk... they're more like a reggae-ish pop/rock.

Cygnus X-2 wrote: stonebeard wrote: Police = NOT punk. They were far better songwriters, far more creative, far better musicians than any of the punk I've heard from any time period, which I admit happily, is very limited. Just because a band plays up-tempo songs in 4/4 time does not mean they're punk. But Stewart Copeland often played polyrhythms under the 4/4.

Are you using that to try and make the case for them being punk?

Police = NOT punk.

They were far better songwriters, far more creative, far better musicians than any of the punk I've heard from any time period, which I admit happily, is very limited.

Just because a band plays up-tempo songs in 4/4 time does not mean they're punk.

Those who know the "score" know that punk and disco did their best to damage prog ..  facts are facts .. argue all you like  >>

We can blame it on punk and disco and yes, there was a huge backlash against prog as their was against disco.  But the biggest problem with prog in the later 1970s was that the chief players became more concerned about the money.  Steve Howe joined Asia because he was dissatisfied with the fact that Yes never had a major album, like The Wall, that eveyone listened to.  Big deal; that was not what people who listened to yes were all about.  ELP started to make albums that their fans just did not want to hear with shorter poppier songs.  When they got back together in the 1990s they did the same thing and people still did not want to hear it. Pink Floyd did the Wall with that disco.  It was a far cry from Wish You Were Hear. Although later I realized that the disco was probably satircal. Genesis, well that's the legendary story. Fripp realized this back in 1975 and broke up King Crimson.  It's the difference between being a muscian and a being a rock star. Musicians do not mind playing club dates and small venues to get their music out to the public. These guys just became so spoiled, and think what the word spoiled really means.

Actually, I tend to think that Punk and Progressive mutated together into what became New Wave.  >>

I really agree what you say and have to say here.  By putting the synthesizer at the forefront of the ensemble, prog created the new wave aesthetic; punk, disco and prog kind of merged into new wave and Genesis really was able to take advantage of this.

Early prog used to be quite punk in many ways. Not lyrically of course, but I remember growing really f**king tired of universalism and cheesy mythology based epics which were REALLY allegories for something MUCH deeper... music needed a shot of realism straight to the face and the punks were just what we needed. They didn't 'steal' prog fans per se, simply gave them an outlet. For instance, the man we used to all know as Johnny Rotten, the most visible symbol of contempt for bands such as ELP, Yes, and other so-called dinonsaurs was secretly a fan of Captain Beefheart, Can, and Van Der Graf Generator. Absurd? Not quite. I was living in pretty much the same reality at the time. Prog was intended to EVOLVE. But we chose not to, and so we paid the price. And yes, we became pretentious and in many ways, we still are. We bought into the tights and silly epics and frilly shirts and spiritual meanderings and awful, BLOODY awful lyrics while forgetting it was all intended as a little absurdity to keep it fun. Much of it was left over from the Mods (ironic as hell, considering how often they're considered the 60s version of punk) and the Hippies (Also ironic, considering that the single most talented/successful psychedelic/WHATEVER band grew bored with it after only a year...).

In summary, on an artistic and perhaps spiritual level, we lost our way. The punks were simply pointing out the obvious.

P.S. the Gabriel incarnation of Genesis was in my view the perfect model for a prog band. Their musical compositions were beautiful, sharp, and dramatic. They never noodled to kill space. Their lyrics were usually playful and absurd. Noone ever faked an epiphany out of 'The Return of the Giant Hogweed'. It was simply beautiful music with simple yet fascinating lyrics. And don't you dare tell me everyone gets something different out of music. If ten people interpret one song differently, that means the song was either a) so badly botched that the meaning waas lost in the songwriting process or b) that writer is so incredible lazy that he can't be bothered to write a song about something. Then again, prog was never meant to be about the lyrics...

Actually, I tend to think that Punk and Progressive mutated together into what became New Wave.  I remember seeing Peter Gabriel's first North American show in New Jersey after he left Genesis.  The opening act was none other than Television, a New York based Punk Band that was to evolve into a more new wave variation.  They were not well received and continued to play through 45 minutes of booing, cat calling, and a more than occaisional piece of projected fruit.

The lead singer would periodically stop, sneer at the audience, and then continue to play.  To my utter dismay, I found that Gabriel selected them to play as the opener.  But for me, this was the sign of the end.  I think Prog became uncomfortable with itself, in that, musicians like Gabriel, Collins, and others found the incessant need to branch elsewhere in more conventional realms, sensing a sort of pretentiousness.  Gabriel was a little more honest about his evolution whereas Collins and Genesis just plain sold out.

Nevertheless, modern prog bands are much more comfortable with their genre - bands like the flower kings, universe zero, etc.

You also have to add in to the fact, that the commercial music business during the late 60's and through most of the 70's had little clue how to manage and market the incredibly diverse (both good and bad) amounts of music being put forth in the public domain.  By the end of the 70's and the early 80's, record companies had learned how to strangle the freedom and creativity of the music community.  But alas, nature will find a way.  Likewise, the internet, cheap recording and distribution methods CD's, IPOD's, downloadable music has crashed down the corporate walls and provided a way for good music to disseminate without the control of corporate america.

That's why Prog has begun to flourish in the late 90's to the present.