As we all know in 1977 punk came along and pushed prog out of favor with the mainstream etc. etc.

But my question is how much did punk really kill prog(or push it out of mainstream favor) and how much had the famous prog bands gotten mediocre musically and were due to be removed fromt he public eye.

For example by 1977 Peter Gabriel had left Genesis, and they released their last "prog" a;bum that year with whatever that live thing was called.

the classic lineup of Yes was gone and so were what is considered their best albums, they had begun the string of mediocre albums

ELP would release their horrid, poppish love beach only a year later

King Crimson would not release anymore records until the 80`s and I think most would agree that their 80`s output pales in comparison to the 70`s output

Also VDGG and Gentle GIant had a few more records that were released in 1977 or later which I havent heard but most of them are rated fairly poorly on this site so I assuming they were nothing to speak of.

I suppose that leaves Pink Floyd and Rush who released good albums in the late 70`s but....

Anyway so my point is was it really that punk was all that special or was prog in sort of a rut at this point and the public wanted something more musically exciting.

eh, true

I think prog was in a sorry state in 77 though

Actually, punk was more of a British phenomena than an American one. When American's think of 1977, they think of Saturday Night Fever. When Brits think of 1977, they think of punk. American 1970s nostalgia is wrapped up in disco and actually the punk that made it by 1978-9 was Talking Heads, Blondie and Gary Numan, which was disco punk or new wave. Since the major prog acts relied on America for their millions of dollars, this must have been difficult for them.  My heart bleeds. Even Pink Floyd went disco with The Wall, which I hated when I first heard it. Scissors Sisters do a disco rendition of Comfortably Numb, which is a celebration of the drugs in dance culture.

A big part of the late 1970s was power pop, at which Genesis excelled and the endless forum notes on that pro and con go on and on. I have a whole theory about power pops relation to prog and how prog created the genre that replaced it, but that's another story.

ken4musiq wrote: Actually, punk was more of a British phenomena than an American one. When American's think of 1977, they think of Saturday Night Fever. When Brits think of 1977, they think of punk. American 1970s nostalgia is wrapped up in disco and actually the punk that made it by 1978-9 was Talking Heads, Blondie and Gary Numan, which was disco punk or new wave. Since the major prog acts relied on America for their millions of dollars, this must have been difficult for them.  My heart bleeds. Even Pink Floyd went disco with The Wall, which I hated when I first heard it. Scissors Sisters do a disco rendition of Comfortably Numb, which is a celebration of the drugs in dance culture. A big part of the late 1970s was power pop, at which Genesis excelled and the endless forum notes on that pro and con go on and on. I have a whole theory about power pops relation to prog and how prog created the genre that replaced it, but that's another story.

The Wall=Disco.

I thought the 80's lineup of Crimson was excellent. Adrian Belew brought a new level of passion and energy to their live performances, and was an excellent guitarist. And Levin/Bruford are probably one of the most powerful rythm sections ever. They adopted the new wave sound and made it progressive. Maybe their albums weren't perfect in the 80's, but they were one of Crimson's most powerful live lineups.

Anyway, I should probably post something on-topic.

Punk rock was a musical movement against prog, but you can't blame it for the downfall of prog. Prog was already going downhill when punk started.

I love punk, and I think it was probably one of the best things that could have happened to music at that time.

gdub411 wrote: ken4musiq wrote: Actually, punk was more of a British phenomena than an American one. When American's think of 1977, they think of Saturday Night Fever. When Brits think of 1977, they think of punk. American 1970s nostalgia is wrapped up in disco and actually the punk that made it by 1978-9 was Talking Heads, Blondie and Gary Numan, which was disco punk or new wave. Since the major prog acts relied on America for their millions of dollars, this must have been difficult for them.  My heart bleeds. Even Pink Floyd went disco with The Wall, which I hated when I first heard it. Scissors Sisters do a disco rendition of Comfortably Numb, which is a celebration of the drugs in dance culture. A big part of the late 1970s was power pop, at which Genesis excelled and the endless forum notes on that pro and con go on and on. I have a whole theory about power pops relation to prog and how prog created the genre that replaced it, but that's another story. The Wall=Disco.

Another Brick in the Wall Part 2 is very disco.

Actually, I tend to think that Punk and Progressive mutated together into what became New Wave.  I remember seeing Peter Gabriel's first North American show in New Jersey after he left Genesis.  The opening act was none other than Television, a New York based Punk Band that was to evolve into a more new wave variation.  They were not well received and continued to play through 45 minutes of booing, cat calling, and a more than occaisional piece of projected fruit.

The lead singer would periodically stop, sneer at the audience, and then continue to play.  To my utter dismay, I found that Gabriel selected them to play as the opener.  But for me, this was the sign of the end.  I think Prog became uncomfortable with itself, in that, musicians like Gabriel, Collins, and others found the incessant need to branch elsewhere in more conventional realms, sensing a sort of pretentiousness.  Gabriel was a little more honest about his evolution whereas Collins and Genesis just plain sold out.

Nevertheless, modern prog bands are much more comfortable with their genre - bands like the flower kings, universe zero, etc.

You also have to add in to the fact, that the commercial music business during the late 60's and through most of the 70's had little clue how to manage and market the incredibly diverse (both good and bad) amounts of music being put forth in the public domain.  By the end of the 70's and the early 80's, record companies had learned how to strangle the freedom and creativity of the music community.  But alas, nature will find a way.  Likewise, the internet, cheap recording and distribution methods CD's, IPOD's, downloadable music has crashed down the corporate walls and provided a way for good music to disseminate without the control of corporate america.

That's why Prog has begun to flourish in the late 90's to the present.

Punk was like a bird taking a crap on your

Windscreen, it was soon Washed off and

Was forgotten, just like prog was…

Early prog used to be quite punk in many ways. Not lyrically of course, but I remember growing really f**king tired of universalism and cheesy mythology based epics which were REALLY allegories for something MUCH deeper... music needed a shot of realism straight to the face and the punks were just what we needed. They didn't 'steal' prog fans per se, simply gave them an outlet. For instance, the man we used to all know as Johnny Rotten, the most visible symbol of contempt for bands such as ELP, Yes, and other so-called dinonsaurs was secretly a fan of Captain Beefheart, Can, and Van Der Graf Generator. Absurd? Not quite. I was living in pretty much the same reality at the time. Prog was intended to EVOLVE. But we chose not to, and so we paid the price. And yes, we became pretentious and in many ways, we still are. We bought into the tights and silly epics and frilly shirts and spiritual meanderings and awful, BLOODY awful lyrics while forgetting it was all intended as a little absurdity to keep it fun. Much of it was left over from the Mods (ironic as hell, considering how often they're considered the 60s version of punk) and the Hippies (Also ironic, considering that the single most talented/successful psychedelic/WHATEVER band grew bored with it after only a year...).

In summary, on an artistic and perhaps spiritual level, we lost our way. The punks were simply pointing out the obvious.

P.S. the Gabriel incarnation of Genesis was in my view the perfect model for a prog band. Their musical compositions were beautiful, sharp, and dramatic. They never noodled to kill space. Their lyrics were usually playful and absurd. Noone ever faked an epiphany out of 'The Return of the Giant Hogweed'. It was simply beautiful music with simple yet fascinating lyrics. And don't you dare tell me everyone gets something different out of music. If ten people interpret one song differently, that means the song was either a) so badly botched that the meaning waas lost in the songwriting process or b) that writer is so incredible lazy that he can't be bothered to write a song about something. Then again, prog was never meant to be about the lyrics...

 Excellent replies so far.

 My answer to the question is no. Prog peaked in the early 70s when Yes Genesis Floyd Tull and ELP were at their peak and that style of music was popular with a lot of kids coing through.By the late 70s those bands were below their peak , there was another generation of kids who wanted their own tastes, heroes and idols and the music industry wanted product. Punk was only a minority taste but it may have influenced the wider public to believe that prog was pretentious.

Those who didn't like prog then used TFTO as the proof that all prog was pretentious and rhapsodised about the new generation of rebels.So there was also something of a conspiracy

.For some other reason that is hard to explain the public also wanted a simpler , less layered sound such as that of the Police.

Actually, I tend to think that Punk and Progressive mutated together into what became New Wave.  >>

I really agree what you say and have to say here.  By putting the synthesizer at the forefront of the ensemble, prog created the new wave aesthetic; punk, disco and prog kind of merged into new wave and Genesis really was able to take advantage of this.

ibby59 wrote: You also have to add in to the fact, that the commercial music business during the late 60's and through most of the 70's had little clue how to manage and market the incredibly diverse (both good and bad) amounts of music being put forth in the public domain.  By the end of the 70's and the early 80's, record companies had learned how to strangle the freedom and creativity of the music community.  But alas, nature will find a way.  Likewise, the internet, cheap recording and distribution methods CD's, IPOD's, downloadable music has crashed down the corporate walls and provided a way for good music to disseminate without the control of corporate america. That's why Prog has begun to flourish in the late 90's to the present.

I think you hit the nail right on the head there. Welcome btw.

Harry Hood wrote: gdub411 wrote: ken4musiq wrote: Actually, punk was more of a British phenomena than an American one. When American's think of 1977, they think of Saturday Night Fever. When Brits think of 1977, they think of punk. American 1970s nostalgia is wrapped up in disco and actually the punk that made it by 1978-9 was Talking Heads, Blondie and Gary Numan, which was disco punk or new wave. Since the major prog acts relied on America for their millions of dollars, this must have been difficult for them.  My heart bleeds. Even Pink Floyd went disco with The Wall, which I hated when I first heard it. Scissors Sisters do a disco rendition of Comfortably Numb, which is a celebration of the drugs in dance culture. A big part of the late 1970s was power pop, at which Genesis excelled and the endless forum notes on that pro and con go on and on. I have a whole theory about power pops relation to prog and how prog created the genre that replaced it, but that's another story. The Wall=Disco. Another Brick in the Wall Part 2 is very disco.

Sorry, but I just don't hear any disco when listening to any of their songs.

Those who know the "score" know that punk and disco did their best to damage prog ..  facts are facts .. argue all you like  >>

We can blame it on punk and disco and yes, there was a huge backlash against prog as their was against disco.  But the biggest problem with prog in the later 1970s was that the chief players became more concerned about the money.  Steve Howe joined Asia because he was dissatisfied with the fact that Yes never had a major album, like The Wall, that eveyone listened to.  Big deal; that was not what people who listened to yes were all about.  ELP started to make albums that their fans just did not want to hear with shorter poppier songs.  When they got back together in the 1990s they did the same thing and people still did not want to hear it. Pink Floyd did the Wall with that disco.  It was a far cry from Wish You Were Hear. Although later I realized that the disco was probably satircal. Genesis, well that's the legendary story. Fripp realized this back in 1975 and broke up King Crimson.  It's the difference between being a muscian and a being a rock star. Musicians do not mind playing club dates and small venues to get their music out to the public. These guys just became so spoiled, and think what the word spoiled really means.

Police = NOT punk.

They were far better songwriters, far more creative, far better musicians than any of the punk I've heard from any time period, which I admit happily, is very limited.

Just because a band plays up-tempo songs in 4/4 time does not mean they're punk.

stonebeard wrote: Police = NOT punk. They were far better songwriters, far more creative, far better musicians than any of the punk I've heard from any time period, which I admit happily, is very limited. Just because a band plays up-tempo songs in 4/4 time does not mean they're punk.

But Stewart Copeland often played polyrhythms under the 4/4.

Cygnus X-2 wrote: stonebeard wrote: Police = NOT punk. They were far better songwriters, far more creative, far better musicians than any of the punk I've heard from any time period, which I admit happily, is very limited. Just because a band plays up-tempo songs in 4/4 time does not mean they're punk. But Stewart Copeland often played polyrhythms under the 4/4.

Are you using that to try and make the case for them being punk?

stonebeard wrote: Cygnus X-2 wrote: stonebeard wrote: Police = NOT punk. They were far better songwriters, far more creative, far better musicians than any of the punk I've heard from any time period, which I admit happily, is very limited. Just because a band plays up-tempo songs in 4/4 time does not mean they're punk. But Stewart Copeland often played polyrhythms under the 4/4. Are you using that to try and make the case for them being punk?

I wrote the wrong word, I shouldn't have used "but", however, I will say that in no way shape or form are The Police punk... they're more like a reggae-ish pop/rock.

Cygnus X-2 wrote: stonebeard wrote: Cygnus X-2 wrote: stonebeard wrote: Police = NOT punk. They were far better songwriters, far more creative, far better musicians than any of the punk I've heard from any time period, which I admit happily, is very limited. Just because a band plays up-tempo songs in 4/4 time does not mean they're punk. But Stewart Copeland often played polyrhythms under the 4/4. Are you using that to try and make the case for them being punk? I wrote the wrong word, I shouldn't have used "but", however, I will say that in no way shape or form are The Police punk... they're more like a reggae-ish pop/rock.

For the most part, yes that is true. Of course, Outlandos d'Amour (sp?) is VERY close, arguably punk musically. The difference is The Police never had the punk attitude, because that's not what they really wanted to be. They were a pop/rock band with an affinity for reggae. It's just that punk was all the range in the late 70s and practically any band doing that sort of thing had a better shot at a record contract. In due time, the Police revealed their true nature, with Regatta de Blanc and so on. Listen to "Spirits in the Material World" and the rest of Ghost in the Machine and tell me the Police were a punk band! That is boarderline prog at times.

stonebeard wrote: Cygnus X-2 wrote: stonebeard wrote: Cygnus X-2 wrote: stonebeard wrote: Police = NOT punk. They were far better songwriters, far more creative, far better musicians than any of the punk I've heard from any time period, which I admit happily, is very limited. Just because a band plays up-tempo songs in 4/4 time does not mean they're punk. But Stewart Copeland often played polyrhythms under the 4/4. Are you using that to try and make the case for them being punk? I wrote the wrong word, I shouldn't have used "but", however, I will say that in no way shape or form are The Police punk... they're more like a reggae-ish pop/rock. For the most part, yes that is true. Of course, Outlandos d'Amour (sp?) is VERY close, arguably punk musically. The difference is The Police never had the punk attitude, because that's not what they really wanted to be. They were a pop/rock band with an affinity for reggae. It's just that punk was all the range in the late 70s and practically any band doing that sort of thing had a better shot at a record contract. In due time, the Police revealed their true nature, with Regatta de Blanc and so on. Listen to "Spirits in the Material World" and the rest of Ghost in the Machine and tell me the Police were a punk band! That is boarderline prog at times.

Exactly. They had a punkish flare but never went punk. And Ghost in the Machine is a great album.

I don't either!>>.

Another Brick in the Wall has a disco beat.  When I first heard it I hated it and it just blended into everything else that was on the radio. Run Like Hell also has a disco beat but when I first heard it I loved it.  Its a great song and it opened me up to the album.  I did not hate disco, just the idea of Pink Floyd doing disco.   Then later on a realized that the use of the disco beat was satirical.  It represented conformity, which is a major theme on the album. I really had more respect for the album but it is still not my favorite and I never liked it as much as Meddle, Dark Side, Wish you Were Here or Animals.  But those albums has a special plce in my youth.  The Wall was eveybody's Pink Floyd.

PS the use of the band name The Police is also satirical.  I mean what kind of a punk band would call themselves The Police, which represents the establishment

I don't think punk "killed" prog.  Not at all. What I think it did is show punk bands that they could execute their vision in shorter, more concise songs (tapestries of sound).  Hell, Rush did it (SIGNALS, PERMANENT WAVES, MOVING PICTURES, etc.). So did Yes (DRAMA, 90125, etc.)

it's not really a question of hearing disco, it's more of a feel thing.  And I can definitly feel a disco-esque vibe from the song, due mainly to the rhythm section.

It is important to remember that the year of the punk explosion was also a year which featured some of the best prog albums in years.  For example:

• Animals - Floyd
• Songs from the Wood - J Tull
• National Health debut (Brilliant!)
• GFTO - Yes
• Morrocan Roll - Brand X
• AFTK - Rush
• 1313 - Univers Zero
• Feels Good to Me - Bruford

...and many more!

chromaticism wrote: I guess it used to be true as punk was the antithesis of prog in its simplicity and rawness, but now I think some punk bands are trying to make innovations to their music themselves so in a sense they are "progressing" as well.  I even think there are even punk-influenced prog bands like Birdsongs of the Mesozoic and that Finnish band Alamaailman Vasarat.

Alot of the post punk bands were more experimental and innovative and shall i say progresive in the fact they were moving forward then most prog bands were at the time and they were influenced by prog bands such as Can,Captain Beefheart,Roxy Music and others although punks dont like to call them prog one punk i spoke to refered to them as being experimental anarchists.

still not hearin any disco in the wall... sorry bud >>>

it is not a matter of hearing or debate.  Both Another Brick in the Wall and Run Like Hell have a modified disco beat in the drum part: every beat has a bass drum.

Cygnus X-2 wrote: stonebeard wrote: Police = NOT punk. They were far better songwriters, far more creative, far better musicians than any of the punk I've heard from any time period, which I admit happily, is very limited. Just because a band plays up-tempo songs in 4/4 time does not mean they're punk. But Stewart Copeland often played polyrhythms under the 4/4.

Possibly there was also a desire to produce music that could be easily played

Harry Hood wrote: gdub411 wrote: ken4musiq wrote: Actually, punk was more of a British phenomena than an American one. When American's think of 1977, they think of Saturday Night Fever. When Brits think of 1977, they think of punk. American 1970s nostalgia is wrapped up in disco and actually the punk that made it by 1978-9 was Talking Heads, Blondie and Gary Numan, which was disco punk or new wave. Since the major prog acts relied on America for their millions of dollars, this must have been difficult for them.  My heart bleeds. Even Pink Floyd went disco with The Wall, which I hated when I first heard it. Scissors Sisters do a disco rendition of Comfortably Numb, which is a celebration of the drugs in dance culture. A big part of the late 1970s was power pop, at which Genesis excelled and the endless forum notes on that pro and con go on and on. I have a whole theory about power pops relation to prog and how prog created the genre that replaced it, but that's another story. The Wall=Disco. Another Brick in the Wall Part 2 is very disco.

What with half the song a bluesy guitar solo- no disco no how

NetsNJFan wrote: It is important to remember that the year of the punk explosion was also a year which featured some of the best prog albums in years.  For example: Animals - Floyd Songs from the Wood - J Tull National Health debut (Brilliant!) GFTO - Yes Morrocan Roll - Brand X AFTK - Rush 1313 - Univers Zero Feels Good to Me - Bruford ...and many more!

At last, a voice of what passes for sanity in these parts! Whilst it's true that there wasn't anything particularly innovative about much of the music, prog enjoyed a real Indian summer, both artistically and commercially, in the 1977/78 heyday of punk. The two genres were never really in competition - prog was mainly album based, relatively complex and often largely or wholly instrumental. Punk was based around singles, stripped down 3 chord rock (with a hint of reggae) and short, topical songs. They were hardly chasing after the same audience....punk was no more responsible for the 'demise' of prog than the Beatles were for the decline of trad jazz.

You know, a big part of this equation that we are missing is the price of concert tickets back in the 1970s.  It always irks me when I see those concert billboards from 1970- 71 and they have bands like Led Zeppelin and Jethro Tull on the same bill for 3 bucks.  Man, could you imagine. 

It surprised me when I was doing some research and came across some late 1970s ads for concerts.  I saw Yes and ELP in 1978.  The Tickets were 8-10 dollars. That't even what ELP charged at the Garden with the orchestra in 1977. The tickettron fee was .50. You could see a concert for ten bucks with a good ticket.

I think that in the 1970s bands did the touring to sell the albums more so than today, where there is a lot of money in touring.  Records in the late 1970s were 6.98 list and you could get them for 3.99-4.99 on sale; that is half of a concert ticket.  Today a typical popular band like Radiohead or Dave Matthews wll charge 40-60 dollars for a concert, which is really three to four times what you would pay for a CD. The tickets at Radio City for Dream Theater were 150 for the first 18 rows. Then you have those humungous ticketmaster fees, which tack on another 25%+ of the ticket price. so altogether you pay just short of 100.00, sans parking and dinner, per ticket.

 I read an interview with Fripp in the late seventies and he was saying that bands were having a hard time touring because there was no money in it.  When you add the lavish sets and production equipment that prog rock bands have, the hotels etx, you can see the problem. they were losing money touring.

Hemispheres wrote: chromaticism wrote: I guess it used to be true as punk was the antithesis of prog in its simplicity and rawness, but now I think some punk bands are trying to make innovations to their music themselves so in a sense they are "progressing" as well.  I even think there are even punk-influenced prog bands like Birdsongs of the Mesozoic and that Finnish band Alamaailman Vasarat. Alot of the post punk bands were more experimental and innovative and shall i say progresive in the fact they were moving forward then most prog bands were at the time and they were influenced by prog bands such as Can,Captain Beefheart,Roxy Music and others although punks dont like to call them prog one punk i spoke to refered to them as being experimental anarchists.

I agree with what you're driving at.  These artists may prefer different terms besides "progressive rock" yet in the essense of innovation they are doing similar things.  As a side note, I think Robert Fripp himself disliked the term progressive rock (and even once thought of punk as a breath of fresh air) as well as other bands like The Mars Volta and Porcupine Tree.

A "little bit killed?" Huh? 

No, time "killed" prog. Times and tastes change and evolve/devolve. Witness disco

(or not!)

prog had enoguh time. it was dying when punk came, so its easy to say punk killed prog. Well, i wasint alive then, so what im saying prob has no backup whatsoever...

I think prog owes a debt to punk really [now don't start fuming...;)]. I don't think it caused a death, things simply evolved. In my record store days we didn't use the genre term 'prog' as we do now, we called it Art Rock [section in the bins]. The term 'progressive' came later for us [mid-late 70s/early 80s] and referred to newer, more modern work [often punk/new wave or funk influenced], experimental - like Eno and Fripp [two of my particular "gods",] solo Gabriel, Manzanara/801, RIO, ReR stuff - like Henry Cow, Art Bears, Frith, Zorn, solo Bruford, National Health, Tuxedomoon, The Residents, Snakefinger & other Ralph Records stuff, Chris Cutler, Mick Karn/Sylvian/Japan, Talking Heads spin offs, etc, etc. It really crossed genres, was less rote/cliché & more inventively rich in terms of the new.

 Hey, but can't you hear early strains of punk in a lot of great early 70s prog - like Planet Gong for instance?

BTW: music history - some one above said that punk was 'a British thing.' Untrue: punk started in NYC w/ Patti Smith & The Ramones.

Cleo

BTW: music history - some one above said that punk was 'a British thing.' Untrue: punk started in NYC w/ Patti Smith & The Ramones.>>

Punk was actually a Long Island thing.  Even Billy Joel was doing it back in the late 1960s. It seems to be historically linked  in the literature with Lenny Kaye and Patti Smith doing poetry readings with guitar and then it moved to CBGB's; but it was going on already with bands on the Nassau/Suffolk border, really the outer limit of NYC.

ken4musiq wrote: BTW: music history - some one above said that punk was 'a British thing.' Untrue: punk started in NYC w/ Patti Smith & The Ramones.>>   Punk was actually a Long Island thing.  Even Billy Joel was doing it back in the late 1960s. It seems to be historically linked  in the literature with Lenny Kaye and Patti Smith doing poetry readings with guitar and then it moved to CBGB's; but it was going on already with bands on the Nassau/Suffolk border, really the outer limit of NYC.

What ? Billy Joel huh ?

Punk never killed prog, even thought the myth says so. Punk came along becuase of political and economic matters in Britian. We hit a slump, we went into Eurpoe, Kids weren't to sure of their future, with their dads being laid off etc. So they looked to music and found nothing all they found were heroic rock bands and bands that had got out of touch with their roots and their fans, all had gone up their own arses and were now in either cloud cuooko land or in valhalla feasting on mead and meat (probably due to the vast amount of drugs they were taking) and so began to make some bad albums. So punk was created out of frustation of the world around them and because of bands that did not speak to the kids anymore, no connection.

I think also it was just a sign of the times, prog ahd been around for about 8 years (even longer prehaps if you think that most of the prog bands first started life as pychedellic bands in teh pychedellic movement) and so people began to get bored of it and so alligences switched new forms of music were championed by the mainstream masses and those who wanted to look cool and hip. (just like now with certain musical tastes eg boy and girl bands are out of favour or punk itself from 1981)

Yet though as the saying goes everything comes full circle and prog and rock and metal are now back in some sort of vouge so we are now seing the rise or the nu-prog along with new rock and metal bands. The next to genres of rock I predict will become vouge in a few years time are Prog (with Co & Ca, Muse, Dream Theater leading the way) and Power metal (with Dragonforce leading the way with more trad. bands like Hammerfall, Stratovarious, Blind Guardian following behind) 

Some good comments here.  I'll add mine.

  By 1972 Major labels were buying smaller record companies and making 3-4 major conglomerates. They were becoming less and less willing to allow an artist to evolve over three to four albums before the public finally got it. If bands didn't do it by their second album they were gone many cases it was the first album.   At the same time Radio formats were becoming more rigid.  In order to market their wares the record companies needed to conform to radio formats because this was the only way to get their bands heard.  On top of that bands had been recreating their "sound" now for 5-7 years. It is hard to stay fresh within your self imposed limitations.  Added to that fans were clamoring for more of the same.  We as an audience refused to progress as well. So record companies pressured their big progressive  artists to conform to one format or another and facing elimination they did. Some like Genesis thrived others like ELP faded away. There were hundreds of progressive bands in the Untied States in the mid 70's who died on the vine because there was no market for them.  No record deals, no radio play=no progressive music. 

It wasn't until the advent of the 90's the internet, indie labels and artist released CD's have we seen a revival in the music that once ruled the world. The format allows for bands to evolve to a particular style that was not present in the previous 15 years. The freedom to create is here again. Although we will probably never see these artists in large arena with elaborate stage shows again at least the music has survived.

So my sumation is Punk and Disco did not kill Progressive music.  The industry itself did.

Punk didn't "kill" prog. (actually nothing "killed" prog.)  Prog. sort of faded away under the promotion of other styles of music.  I remember the time very well, in the late 70's and early 80's.  Punk was there and getting more attention, but it was never a huge force in music (as the myth goes).  Disco and dance music however, did get a lot of attention and promotion.  Flashy bands like Kiss were also extremely popular.  And "new wave" bands like Talking Heads and Blondie were also getting a lot of attention.

So in short, there was a big shift in music towards flashy, trendy NEW bands, with simplistic and/or bouncy song ideas.  It was 180 degrees from the non-trendy, complex thinking music of prog. bands (which radio and the music press were getting bored by).  The kings that controlled the music industry wanted to promote music that people could FEEL, not music to be listened to and valued for it's quality and talent.

In some ways, we're still stuck in that mode, with the high promotion of hip-hop and rap "artists" and people like Britney Spears.  But things are improving now that progressive and eclectic musicians can get their music out on small labels and through the Internet.  But the music atmosphere will probably never be like it was in the early 70's.

I would like to return to the strange accusation that some parts of "The Wall" are disco music. Well, I'm sorry, it's not disco in any way. Even if some people think that there is a "disco" feel to it, I think no one can imagine John Travolta dancing to the sounds of "Another Brick In The Wall part 2". Some people here don't like "The Wall" because it was so popular and they don't pay any attention to the music and the lyrics of this album.

By the way, there is a different song which sounds like disco to me: "Roundabout" by Yes. I obviously can't say that this song was influenced by disco, because it came out in 1972 when disco was in it's early anonymous stages, but still some parts of the song are close to disco. Don't get me wrong - I like this song.

I don't know enough about the history of music to make a good contribution to the "punk killed/not killed the prog" discussion, but I'll read Edward Macan's book "Rocking the classics" in the near future, so I'd be smarter after that. It's one of the best books about prog, from what I've heard.

By the way, there is a different song which sounds like disco to me: "Roundabout" by Yes. >>

Yes. I can imagine John Travolta dancing to Roundabout. Actually there is a little known fact that the Bee Gees approached Yes to use this in the score.  There was much dissention in the band as Jon and Chris were split.  Steve Howe was torn.  Years later the band would comment that they were sorry that they had not let the Bee Gees use it because Pink Floyd became known as the first prog band to use disco.  Yes could have had that distinction. 

For those who think that prog and punk can't mesh,think twice.Canadian band(from Quebec) Grim Skunk masterfully blended both genres on their eponymus album released in 1994.

They combine the raw agressivenes of punk along with the power of metal and grace of prog.They even integrate some classical bits here and there.Hammond organ is used extensively reminding one of Atomic Rooster.Very original and unique.As a matter of fact I think they should be in PA.

Well thanks a lot!!!

I'm honnoured!Enjoy Grim Skunk!

Merci.

For those who think that prog and punk can't mesh,think twice. Canadian band(from Quebec) Grim Skunk masterfully blended both genres on their eponymus album released in 1994.>>

The other more obvious example is Radiohead.

With all due respect,Radiohead's punk leanings and ''prog'' ingredients were'nt really spliced together.On Grim Skunk you can hear punk,metal,classical and prog within the same song!!!

Whereas Radiohead had their punk/alternative early era then came OK Computer and the Floyd influenced sound.Not much punk on Ok Computer.

Anyway,I like both bands.

Whereas Radiohead had their punk/alternative early era then came OK Computer and the Floyd influenced sound.Not much punk on Ok Computer.>>

Paranoid Android that part before the 7/8.

2+2=5 has that ambient guitar opening then goes into the Johnny Lydon bit.

What ? Billy Joel huh ?>>>

Billy Joel was in a band called The Hassels in 1967.  They recorded two albums of punk rock in a Voidoids style. One song Tough Guy, starts out "He's a tough guy. He's a punk."

Then in 1970 Joel had a band called Attila that was a trio with Hammond, bass and drums.  Very Nice.  They did a song called Brain Intrusion, I think that was the name; it starts off quoting Bernstein and is very influenced by Emerson's version of Blue Rondo a la Turk.

Then in 71, he formed Cold Spring Harbor. They put out one album.  It wasn't until he signed with Columbia that he became famous. 

The connection of Punk rock to late 1960s Long Island is interesting and I should probably firther research it before eveyone is too old to remember. I know nobody cares; but being from Long Island, it is interesting to know that we created something that shook the world.

Hope you don't mind me adding my opinion... and that is, that

Punk didn't kill Prog at all. Moreover, PROG is *alive and kicking* nowadays like it hasn't been in decades!

What I rather see is Prog being "killed" by so-called music lovers who still whine and moan about Genesis and Yes not being like they were in the 1970's anymore and such... people refusing to come out and visit a band's concert if that band isn't yet well-known... people not having investigated any NEW bands since 1978 and so on. Oh, and don't get me started on those so-called Tribute Bands, which  I tend to consider the *death* of true progressiveness !

Instead, I see the modern Prog Scene as a very healthy one - Prog Metal is very, very popular nowadays, for instance, but also note the gazillions of young bands having incorporated a massive influence from the 1970's bands - Porcupine Tree, Anathema, The Flower Kings, Riverside (who I've seen performing in a tiny pub some three months ago...!), Anekdoten, even the aforementioned Radiohead - the list is endless.

So, thinking "Punk killed Prog" is waaaayyyy too much honour to Punk!