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Politician 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 02 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 521
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 Posted: November 22 2005 at 16:18 |
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President Festus Mogae (Botswana). Whilst almost every other sub-
Saharan African country is facing economic ruin and near-starvation
(completely self-inflicted in the case of Botswana's neighbour,
Zimbabwe), he has maintained a properous, stable and civilised
democracy whose government is superior to that of many Western
European countries. And as an elected politician myself (with the UK
Opposition), I'm very pleased to see that Tony Blair has received no votes
yet.
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memowakeman
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 19 2005
Location: Mexico City
Status: Offline
Points: 13032
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Posted: November 22 2005 at 13:19 |
We are doomed 
Please i dont wat to see any vote for Bush  
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Follow me on twitter @memowakeman
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: November 22 2005 at 13:06 |
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I voted were all doomed as those that i know from that list i dislike for the actions ect. I'm supprised someone voted for Putin, the ex head of the KGB who is running the country like a tyrannical dictater (or so it appears from hear at least).
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Andrea Cortese
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 05 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 4411
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Posted: November 22 2005 at 13:05 |
 Sean Trane wrote:
Andrea Cortese wrote:
 I am free here and also in my country, even if sometimes I'm under attack for my opinions!!
It's not a problem, BTW, Italy was always a country with tremendous ideological fights! and it is also now!>> this is due to the presence of the Vatican and their meddling into politics!!
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EEeeHHMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!......................
Apparently not only are you under fire for your opinion in your country but also on the web!
Sorry about that!! You are of course totally entitled to your opinion (however naive they are) and I beg you to forgive me if I made you feel like it was not a valid one!
But you must understand that Berlusconi brings horror and disgust to most people outside Italy (Italians included) a bit like W Bush is also! This was especially true in Genoa with the shooting of a protester. I even saw some Italians ripping the flag! Berlusconi is seen as a collab to the fascist Ligua!
Well Chirac does bring horror and disgust too, but everyone laughs at his lack of credibility , because the french are aware of this!!
As for your grandfather, too many Italians found death in our mines (tragedies and accidents that are still remembered 50 years later) but most found at least a decent life they could not have in Sicily (fleeing mafia and church protected and slightly mafiosis themselves lords), Sardinia, Calabra and Appuglia. But their homesickness isa sometimes painful to see.
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Don't worry! 
BTW I have my own ideas that Berlusconi (what an interesting paradox!!) is victim of prejudice!
For example Genua's fights were thought and planned as a first answer to the democratic election of him!
The previous government, who organized that, immidiately went to demonstrate against the summit organized by themselves! This paradox is due only because of their hate for Berlusconi.
He has never shown hate for his opponents!!
I do not hate my polical opponents. In fact it's right to respect them and to be respected by them !
Edited by Andrea Cortese
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20240
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Posted: November 22 2005 at 11:48 |
Andrea Cortese wrote:
I am free here and also in my country, even if sometimes I'm under attack for my opinions!!
It's not a problem, BTW, Italy was always a country with tremendous ideological fights! and it is also now!>> this is due to the presence of the Vatican and their meddling into politics!!
|
EEeeHHMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!......................
Apparently not only are you under fire for your opinion in your country but also on the web!
Sorry about that!! You are of course totally entitled to your opinion (however naive they are) and I beg you to forgive me if I made you feel like it was not a valid one!
But you must understand that Berlusconi brings horror and disgust to most people outside Italy (Italians included) a bit like W Bush is also! This was especially true in Genoa with the shooting of a protester. I even saw some Italians ripping the flag! Berlusconi is seen as a collab to the fascist Ligua!
Well Chirac does bring horror and disgust too, but everyone laughs at his lack of credibility , because the french are aware of this!!
As for your grandfather, too many Italians found death in our mines (tragedies and accidents that are still remembered 50 years later) but most found at least a decent life they could not have in Sicily (fleeing mafia and church protected and slightly mafiosis themselves lords), Sardinia, Calabra and Appuglia. But their homesickness isa sometimes painful to see.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Andrea Cortese
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 05 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 4411
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Posted: November 22 2005 at 11:33 |
No, I like less Achille Occhetto! D'Alema is quite superior in political intelligence than the other!
Occhetto is now too much friend of Antonio Di Pietro! who is not my favourite politician!
Occhetto is too ideological connected with the judiciary revolution against the right-wing (and against the socialist party itself, which he helped to destroy! in 1992-1993!)! I think Bettino Craxi was a great politician and Berlusconi is sometimes similar to him.
Alessandra Mussolini is a strange and good politician: it's true she is near the neo-fascists (who I don't like a all!), but she was alway in the first line to support women and their rights! Its are not opposites, BTW!
P.S. my favourite is Berlusconi, I repeat it he is not a politician, BTW, he is more a self-made-man, someone of whom italy needed from long time! That's why he won two times!
Edited by Andrea Cortese
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Trotsky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 25 2004
Location: Malaysia
Status: Offline
Points: 2771
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Posted: November 22 2005 at 10:57 |
Andrea Cortese wrote:
Trotsky wrote:
Berlusconi, eh, Andrea?!? ... how RIGHT I was that other time. ... and I see my friend Hugues couldn't resist!
Well
you can see my sympathies in that I voted for Persson, also like
Zapatero, and have a soft spot for Lula, Chavez and Castro ... however
I fear that unlike the Swedish and Spanish leader, Latin America is a
very dangerous place for leftist (or would be leftist) governments ...
if
it wasn't for the whole "war against terrorism" issue, I'm sure that
the Bush administration would be doing something about the left trend
in Latin America, especially the vocal Chavez.
But even so the
pressure has forced these guys into horrible mistakes ... not that I'm
blaming all mistakes on the outside ... I was very disappointed by the
reports of corruption in Lula's Brazil
Atkingani,
no doubt that Dalai Lama, Mandela, Clinton qualify as world
personalities/former leaders, but I feel that their current potential
to affect change is slightly less than the names I mentioned ...
otherwise I might have added Gorbachev and Bob Hawke and a few others
... but feel free to name anybody you want ... 
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I am free here and also in my country, even if sometimes I'm under attack for my opinions!!
It's not a problem, BTW, Italy was always a country with tremendous ideological fights! and it is also now! |
All the way back to Matteoti vs Mussolini, eh?
What happened to Alessandra Mussolini ... she was in the neo-fascist
MSI, right? Also maybe I should ask you a strange question ... Achille Occhetto or Massimo D'Alema ... who did you like less (probably D'Alema since he was PM)?
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"Death to Utopia! Death to faith! Death to love! Death to hope?" thunders the 20th century. "Surrender, you pathetic dreamer.”
"No" replies the unhumbled optimist "You are only the present."
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Andrea Cortese
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 05 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 4411
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Posted: November 22 2005 at 10:40 |
Trotsky wrote:
Berlusconi, eh, Andrea?!? ... how RIGHT I was that other time. ... and I see my friend Hugues couldn't resist!
Well you can see my sympathies in that I voted for Persson, also like Zapatero, and have a soft spot for Lula, Chavez and Castro ... however I fear that unlike the Swedish and Spanish leader, Latin America is a very dangerous place for leftist (or would be leftist) governments ...
if it wasn't for the whole "war against terrorism" issue, I'm sure that the Bush administration would be doing something about the left trend in Latin America, especially the vocal Chavez.
But even so the pressure has forced these guys into horrible mistakes ... not that I'm blaming all mistakes on the outside ... I was very disappointed by the reports of corruption in Lula's Brazil
Atkingani, no doubt that Dalai Lama, Mandela, Clinton qualify as world personalities/former leaders, but I feel that their current potential to affect change is slightly less than the names I mentioned ... otherwise I might have added Gorbachev and Bob Hawke and a few others ... but feel free to name anybody you want ...
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I am free here and also in my country, even if sometimes I'm under attack for my opinions!!
It's not a problem, BTW, Italy was always a country with tremendous ideological fights! and it is also now!
Edited by Andrea Cortese
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Andrea Cortese
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 05 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 4411
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Posted: November 22 2005 at 10:33 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Andrea Cortese wrote:
BTW we have to count votes, after elections, not before!
Why I cannot disagree with other italian people? Do they are more italians than me?
...ah! I know...I'm naive.....!!
BTW that's the proof I do not (and I will not) follow the crowd!
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But those 20 persons are maybe not that representative of Itally since 2/3 of them are Scientist (and obviously higher educated - all are post-doc Uni) and the others are technicians (and two of them union rep), asistants , infrastructure workers and administrative(the famous Evelina).
As I tried to say, they have been here for a relatively long time, so they are less likely to follow-up on internal politics, but are likely to be far more severe on the external politics of their country, which is making them cringe a lot.
I never meant to say they were more representative of Italians than you.
But if I may say , the majotity of italian immigrants in Belgium (most of them living in Charleroi and Liège) are also rather against Berlusconi , but their profile is radically different , since they were driven by misery after WWII and have flooded to coal mines and steel mills.
Anyway, go on closing your eyes !!!
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I am a lawyer! I'm obviously higher educated and post-doc UNI (in Padua) too!!
Never thought this means my politics' opinions are better (or has more dignity) than other non-so-high-educated people!
Are you a fan of the Plato's Politeia? I am not!
BTW let us decide the voters democratically if italians want a different government!
P.S. also my grandfather Alfonso went in your country (during the fifties) to work in a coal mine! He died here, after returning to italy, for a pulmonar (obviously) disease. I was only a little boy, but I vividly remember the last time I saw him!!
Edited by Andrea Cortese
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Trotsky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 25 2004
Location: Malaysia
Status: Offline
Points: 2771
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Posted: November 22 2005 at 10:30 |
Berlusconi, eh, Andrea?!? ... how RIGHT I was that other time. ... and I see my friend Hugues couldn't resist!
Well you can see my sympathies in that I voted for Persson, also like
Zapatero, and have a soft spot for Lula, Chavez and Castro ... however
I fear that unlike the Swedish and Spanish leader, Latin America is a
very dangerous place for leftist (or would be leftist) governments ...
if it wasn't for the whole "war against terrorism" issue, I'm sure that
the Bush administration would be doing something about the left trend
in Latin America, especially the vocal Chavez.
But even so the pressure has forced these guys into horrible mistakes
... not that I'm blaming all mistakes on the outside ... I was very
disappointed by the reports of corruption in Lula's Brazil
Atkingani, no doubt that Dalai Lama, Mandela, Clinton qualify as world
personalities/former leaders, but I feel that their current potential
to affect change is slightly less than the names I mentioned ...
otherwise I might have added Gorbachev and Bob Hawke and a few others
... but feel free to name anybody you want ...
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|
"Death to Utopia! Death to faith! Death to love! Death to hope?" thunders the 20th century. "Surrender, you pathetic dreamer.”
"No" replies the unhumbled optimist "You are only the present."
|
|
Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20240
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Posted: November 22 2005 at 09:52 |
Andrea Cortese wrote:
BTW we have to count votes, after elections, not before!
Why I cannot disagree with other italian people? Do they are more italians than me?
...ah! I know...I'm naive.....!!
BTW that's the proof I do not (and I will not) follow the crowd!
|
But those 20 persons are maybe not that representative of Itally since 2/3 of them are Scientist (and obviously higher educated - all are post-doc Uni) and the others are technicians (and two of them union rep), asistants , infrastructure workers and administrative(the famous Evelina).
As I tried to say, they have been here for a relatively long time, so they are less likely to follow-up on internal politics, but are likely to be far more severe on the external politics of their country, which is making them cringe a lot.
I never meant to say they were more representative of Italians than you.
But if I may say , the majotity of italian immigrants in Belgium (most of them living in Charleroi and Liège) are also rather against Berlusconi , but their profile is radically different , since they were driven by misery after WWII and have flooded to coal mines and steel mills.
Anyway, go on closing your eyes !!!
Edited by Sean Trane
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
|
Andrea Cortese
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 05 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 4411
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Posted: November 22 2005 at 08:59 |
The Miracle wrote:
I don't know most of them well, but from the ones I do, Vladimir Putin. I'm Russian and he really making changes for the good. Slowly, but he's dragging the countru out of chaos. |
I do agree with you, Miracle. I've always liked Russian History and Culture since I discovered (when I was just a school-boy) that "Czar" derives from the latin "Caesar"!
How about to spend holidays in Soci (Black Sea, or not?)? Is it a great and wonderful place?
Edited by Andrea Cortese
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Andrea Cortese
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 05 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 4411
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Posted: November 22 2005 at 08:51 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Andrea Cortese wrote:
Reasoning: if he dominates all italian TVs, why the mass medias (TV, newspapers, radio...) are here against him? This is why he wants to destroy all TVs that are against him, to favor the ones he owns who do not question his actions.
Rai 3 is a channell which is organized by left-wing journalists, as always. But Berlusconi would like to do away with that TV! please do not deny against 20 italians colleagues of mine!
In his three channels there are many left-wing-personalities! many programs made by tons of journalists or comicals who disagree with him! But if they actually put him in trouble (like really challenging him), they will have problems!
Everyday in Italy we continuously hear speaking of Berlusconi: but it is to criticize him. So, do you really know what are you speaking about?Actually I work with roughly 20 Italians in my research center and not all are left-wingers! Actually the real right-winged collegues are very typed and serious and fewer sense of humour, although they also love a good laugh at the Trattoria next village! The fact that they are scioentist earning quite a good living , makes them aware that they are lucky and the fact that they drive Lancias Themas or Alfas 166 (there is even a Maserati and a Ferrari), would ensure a right-wing support , but surprinsingly, they loathe Berlusconi.
The vast majority of your countrymen I work with (some have been here for over 15 years, but actually go back on holidays in Italy every time they can because they are all convinced that Italy is the best place around - I will not argue with them because thereis a sense of truth into it - and they suffer from the Dutch weather although they agree that the North Sea air is quite better than the Po valley) are completely ashamed of Berlusconi - my guess is 18 against and 2 for.
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And the best looking pair of eyes belong to Evelina. The classiest of all ladies on site is Ana!!
However the best pair of knockers belong to Hilse!!! and the best piece of arse is ....... None of your business!!!
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BTW we have to count votes, after elections, not before!
Why I cannot disagree with other italian people? Do they are more italians than me?
...ah! I know...I'm naive.....!!
BTW that's the proof I do not (and I will not) follow the crowd!
Edited by Andrea Cortese
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Atkingani
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: October 21 2005
Location: Terra Brasilis
Status: Offline
Points: 12288
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Posted: November 22 2005 at 08:01 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Atkingani wrote:
Once I admired Blair and also Castro, Lula, Putin and others but they deceived me.
From the list I vote for Zapatero but would like to add some names: Dalai-Lama, Mandela, Clinton.
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I think we are talking of political leaders in activity here. Or else the pope and Khomeiny would be in the list!
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I believe that the Dalai-Lama and Clinton are still active although they don't have an official position by now. Mandela is great by his own.
The Pope should be included since he is de facto a Ruler (of Vatican City).
Edited by Atkingani
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Guigo
~~~~~~
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20240
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Posted: November 22 2005 at 07:57 |
Andrea Cortese wrote:
Reasoning: if he dominates all italian TVs, why the mass medias (TV, newspapers, radio...) are here against him? This is why he wants to destroy all TVs that are against him, to favor the ones he owns who do not question his actions.
Rai 3 is a channell which is organized by left-wing journalists, as always. But Berlusconi would like to do away with that TV! please do not deny against 20 italians colleagues of mine!
In his three channels there are many left-wing-personalities! many programs made by tons of journalists or comicals who disagree with him! But if they actually put him in trouble (like really challenging him), they will have problems!
Everyday in Italy we continuously hear speaking of Berlusconi: but it is to criticize him. So, do you really know what are you speaking about?Actually I work with roughly 20 Italians in my research center and not all are left-wingers! Actually the real right-winged collegues are very typed and serious and fewer sense of humour, although they also love a good laugh at the Trattoria next village! The fact that they are scioentist earning quite a good living , makes them aware that they are lucky and the fact that they drive Lancias Themas or Alfas 166 (there is even a Maserati and a Ferrari), would ensure a right-wing support , but surprinsingly, they loathe Berlusconi.
The vast majority of your countrymen I work with (some have been here for over 15 years, but actually go back on holidays in Italy every time they can because they are all convinced that Italy is the best place around - I will not argue with them because thereis a sense of truth into it - and they suffer from the Dutch weather although they agree that the North Sea air is quite better than the Po valley) are completely ashamed of Berlusconi - my guess is 18 against and 2 for.
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And the best looking pair of eyes belong to Evelina. The classiest of all ladies on site is Ana!!
However the best pair of knockers belong to Hilse!!! and the best piece of arse is ....... None of your business!!!
Edited by Sean Trane
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
|
Andrea Cortese
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 05 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 4411
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Posted: November 22 2005 at 07:23 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Andrea Cortese wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Andrea Cortese wrote:
Berlusconi is great! |
Now I understand more what you are about!!
Still you do not think you are naive???
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No, I simply do not follow the crowd!
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Well since the crowd is voting in majority for him, you do vote with crowd!!
Do you actually think the man is honest? Destroying the state RAI TV in order to favor his private TVs chains. The man may be the most crooked in Western Europe ! And his dealing with Ligua!!
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Reasoning: if he dominates all italian TVs, why the mass medias (TV, newspapers, radio...) are here against him?
Rai 3 is a channell which is organized by left-wing journalists, as always.
In his three channels there are many left-wing-personalities! many programs made by tons of journalists or comicals who disagree with him!
Everyday in Italy we continuously hear speaking of Berlusconi: but it is to criticize him. So, do you really know what are you speaking about?
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Norbert
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 20 2005
Location: Hungary
Status: Offline
Points: 2506
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Posted: November 22 2005 at 07:20 |
Persson and Zapatero are the most tolerable ones from the list.
Many months ago I thought much more of Yushchenko than I do now.
Edited by Norbert
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20240
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Posted: November 22 2005 at 07:01 |
Andrea Cortese wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Andrea Cortese wrote:
Berlusconi is great! |
Now I understand more what you are about!!
Still you do not think you are naive???
|
No, I simply do not follow the crowd!
|
Well since the crowd is voting in majority for him, you do vote with crowd!!
Do you actually think the man is honest? Destroying the state RAI TV in order to favor his private TVs chains. The man may be the most crooked in Western Europe ! And his dealing with Ligua!!
|
|
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
|
Andrea Cortese
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 05 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 4411
|
Posted: November 22 2005 at 06:14 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Andrea Cortese wrote:
Berlusconi is great! |
Now I understand more what you are about!!
Still you do not think you are naive???
|
No, I simply do not follow the crowd!
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20240
|
Posted: November 22 2005 at 06:00 |
Andrea Cortese wrote:
Berlusconi is great! |
Now I understand more what you are about!!
Still you do not think you are naive???
|
|
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
|
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