Nuke wrote:

I'll be black and you be blue,I suppose. Please don't dissect my posts. It takes everything out of context and misses the big point.   Well, that’s the way I do it without cutting sentences or ideas, if  you like it OK if not, I can’t do it on another way because  you’re making a hell of a long post.   I'll be red, then... First off, I was being sarcastic when I called KC "underground". Anyone who is actually into rap the same way we are into prog will know those two. As a matter of fact, if you go into a record store, you almost guaranteed to find those albums. More likely then finding a king crimson album (which I have trouble with in chain stores, imo. You are lucky, I have to order mine).   That “You are lucky, I have to order mine” is or sarcasm or you live in Tibet, as a fact I live in Perú and find almost any King Crimson album in any record store, also bought a lot of albums outside my country, specially in USA and never had any problem buying anything I searched for except Triumvirat which is very hard to find being a German release.   But if you go to any store, you find any 50 cents Rap or Hip Hop album, to be honest for me not any Rap or Hip Hop album is worth those 50 cents, but each time somebody talks me about a supposedly “great rap artist” I manage to get something and find the same crap, probably in a nicer package, but the same sh!t IMO.   You're simply not listening.   This is an interesting point 50 cents rap…… Have you ever heard of 50 cents Prog? I haven’t, you know why? Because Prog is a genre that search for excellence, some achieve this, some fail in the attempt, but those bands that play Prog’ know from the start they are going to have a hard time, because Prog is not commercial, they don’t search for the easy formula, they search for the harder one.   If they really search for the harder formula, why do they play what is, despite its unpopularity, popular music? Why don't they play art music?   The low end theory, apparently, is considered a "classic" the same way rock fans consider Led zepplin IV a classic. Neither album is an exception, except to today's sh*tty gangsta' rap, which has nothing to do with real rap, except as a hyperbole from real rap.   That sh*tty Gangsta Rap as you call it (Well all Rap is sh!tty for me) is the real Rap born in the streets, the “so called” elegant or classic or good or talented Rap is oly a hybrid mixed of different sounds and genres that lost all his rap essence.   Sorry to say this, but this is just ridiculous. It's like saying that if you weren't born a slave on the southern plantations, you can't sing the blues, that your blues lost all of its essence. Or that you can't sing gospel choires if you're white. Or that white men can't play basketball. Or that to be a successful rock artist you have to shag groupies left and right. Or that if you haven't graduated from the conservatory, don't wear a cape and don't sing about dragons you can't be prog. If you don't wear a cape your prog is devoid of its essence, it's not prog. Rap was born when someone discovered a musical (sic) quality to his/her speech when they accentuated certain rhythmic patterns, found this quality pleasing and passed his/her discovery on to other people. I don't even want to guess when and where that occurred, but I'm pretty sure it goes a LONG way back. And even if it doesn't, even if it was born in the ghettoes, so what? I don't remember ever getting stabbed, raped or becoming addicted to crack as a result of listening to the few rap artists that I sometimes listen to.     Judging Hip-hop from bands like 50-cent is like judging prog from bands like pink floyd.   Pink Floyd is an excellent band and I wish more bands sounded like them, it’s a classic and more precisely is one of the cornerstones of the genre, a band that evolved dramatically from British Psychedelia (Very original expression of it) to something absolutely new with a very elaborate atmospheric sound excellent guitar (virtuoso to say the less) by Dave Gilmour and dramatic lyrics by both Dave and Roger (Not the crappy stuff most rappers play).   Pink Floyd's superiority over 50 cent isn't important here - what is important is the fact that you have no idea about prog if you've only heard Pink Floyd and no idea about rap if you've only heard 50 cent.   Neither is what the genre is really like. Lets go back a little, okay? So, there is this revolution somewhat like the white punk revolution, but for blacks. So, it is real genuine music, and lots of the classics like low end theory are released.   No, it’s not a revolution, it’s not something that appeared from the nothingness, rap was a process, but inverse to Prog, while Prog is the evolution (In a Darwinian sense) of simple Rock getting ore elaborate and complex, Rap is the over simplification of  lets say a b*****d son of Jazz and R&B that abandons real music (with the excuse that the instruments are too expensive) to create a form of poetry backgrounded by a couple of chords in many cases ripped from real artists.   IMO evolution is about making things work, not about making them more complex. If complexity doesn't work, nature doesn't hesitate to simplify. But let's assume that more complex = better. Where does that leave prog? Somewhere boring, if Frank Zappa's and Robert Fripp's opinions are anything to go by. Let's face it, prog isn't anything as complex and/or ambitious as classical, some jazz, avant garde and traditional music. Zappa and Fripp knew this, so they held prog low. And I'm sure they aren't the only HIGHLY accomplished composers/musicians who think this waz. I'm sure Bartok would consider prog crude as well, if he were still alive. So ultimately that leaves prog in the position akin to that of a small town businessman, who may want to be treated by his fellow townspeople (whom he holds in contempt because of his house and two cars) as a Rockefeller, but who wouldn't be able to offer the least resistance if a real Rockefeller came to his town and bought him out. Pathetic little creature, really. If he had shown sympathy to his fellows, he would have stood a chance of keeping his dignity at least, but since he didn't... So ultimately you can only go so far with complexity as an indicator of quality.   that abandons real music (with the excuse that the instruments are too expensive)     Another ridiculous statement here. Following this logic one could also say that practitioners of Gregorian chants, the music of the African Wolof people, the Charlie Parker-influenced jazz artists, people playing the music of the far East, people who solo on their instruments without any backing, and drummers in general abandoned real music, or never created it in the first place.   to create a form of poetry backgrounded by a couple of chords in many cases ripped from real artists.     If they quoted those artists without permission, they are definitely guilty of a crime. But that hardly disqualifies them as artists - Jean Genet and Richard Wagner were also thieves; Carlo Gesualdo was a murderer; Sir Thomas Malory was all of this and more. And the act of quoting doesn't disqualify them as artists, either. It probably would if that was all they did - but that isn't very likely, IMO.      You know who made a real intelligent predecessor of Rap, Bob Dylan but he blended Country elements like in Suberranean Homesick Blues    Some guys make a record about crime in the city and stuff, and it sells like mad, so the record companies encourage artists to go that route. All of a sudden, hip hop is the new thing, just like punk. And, just like punk getting compromised by bands like good charloette, rap got compromised by bands like ludacris. So, is good charloette real punk? No, it is a commercial genre. Just like gangsta rap. They are commercial genres, not real genres. People who were with hip hop from the beginning will tell you that what is on the radio now is not what they would consider hip hop. Just like you guys don't consider SOAD prog. The fact is, a few bands sell almost all of the records. So, they sell the majority of records, so you might say that the majority of hip hop is that sh*t. But, if you look in terms of artists, the majority of artists are not like that at all. So, I consider it the mojority of hip hop released is not the sh*t you call hip hop on the radio. This isn't strange or mysterious in any way. As a matter of fact, the sales rank is about the same as in the court of the crimson king. So much for being this great exception that no ones heard of.   Haven’t touched the whole paragraph so you don’t say I cut your ideas, but that nonsense of a few guys talking about crimes in the sitt7y is ignoring the essence of Rap. Rap is not at invented word, is described buy any dictionary:   Rap: 2 a : a sharp rebuke or criticism b : a negative and often undeserved reputation or charge -- usually used with bum or bad <given a bum rap by the press     And that’s the reason of Rap, to criticize, of course it’s ridiculous to see a lot of guys rapping about oppression and poverty with enough gold in their bodies to feed a small country for months. Their essence is to criticize everything, throw the blame on society of crime, violence and everything that is wrong but not assuming any share of that blame, so don’t come me with the cr*p that rap was perverted by a bunch of idiots that found the magic formula, the truth is that Rap was born perverted.   ... the truth is that rock was spawned by the devil, classical was born snobbish, vain and arrogant, jazz was created by Wynton Marsalis , prog is about wearing a cape...    Please don’t come with that sad story that only a few artists play all the bad rap and the vast majority plays the sh!tty one, that’s as false as a US$ 2.25 coin You didn't like Nuke's story, how about the BBC's then? World hip-hop questions US rap A recent international hip-hop festival which brought together rap artists from around the world has raised the question of why non-US rap is so political - whereas mainstream American rap appears frivolous. Many of the performers at the three-day Trinity International Hip-Hop Festival in Hartford, Connecticut, were critical of the way that US rap - which is by far the best-selling - appears concerned mostly with money, drugs and sex, and has little to do with its roots in the angry political expression of groups like Public Enemy or KRS One. "There's this negative perception of hip-hop as being a criminal artform, as being the home of the uneducated and non-thinking people," said Nigerian MC Oke. "When you go across the continents of the Earth, people are embracing hip-hop as the force to change and transform the world." 'Sex, money and drugs' The artists, who came form countries as diverse as Brazil, Kenya, and Iraq, were brought together by the record label Nomadic Wax, in collaboration with a group of Hartford students and American non-governmental organisation World Up. The festival was designed to promote international understanding and community development through hip-hop. Rolando Brown, of event sponsors the Hip-hop Association, said the festival highlighted there was "more of a focus on positive community development" outside the US. "Some will argue that it's because of a lack of an economy, others would say it's because the international market has always been a little bit more conducive to development than the US has," he added. MC Dola, a Tanzanian rapper who is one of the biggest-selling artists in East Africa, said that outside of the US, stars maximise their appeal by talking about social issues and rapping in their own language. "We have been able to filter out the elements of sex, money and drugs - you don't get that in Tanzania," he explained. "You don't get airplay if you talk about these things in your music. Over 99% of the rap in Tanzania is in Swahili - and it actually has a political message to it. "They are the records that sell and appeal to a wider demographic of people than any type of music." Changing market However, many artists in Hartford blamed the current preoccupations of US hip-hop on the music industry, and stressed they believe record labels and radio conglomerates are actively promoting negative stereotypes to bury rap with a positive or political message. "Being sensational about violence or sex or drugs is a huge part of it," said Chee Malabar, a rapper with Asian-American act The Himalayan Project. "It's easier for Americans to buy into that than it is to look in the mirror and say, 'some of the social policies and institutional hierarchies are messed up'. "That's hard to sell, and ultimately it's about selling." But Jacqueline Springer, of the BBC's urban music station 1Xtra, said that she strongly disagreed with this opinion. "People haven't appreciated that although rap is the biggest-selling genre now, it's layered, so there are people who are underground, who have more of a political voice," she said. She also pointed out that the age of the average rap fan has decreased, which has transformed what rap artists produce. "They don't really want to hear about your opposition to George Bush - they'd much rather hear about what you want to do with George Bush's wife," she said. "They don't want too much politics or too much sociological content rammed down their throats, because they're looking at rap as a fantasy - 'if I can famous, I can get iced-out teeth as well'." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4950692.stm About the prog thing. Some people think of prog as a descriptive word. THen some people think of prog as a genre. Radiohead is not really related to the prog genre, but a ton of people call them progressive. Same thing about progressive hip-hop. Some people consider artistic and innovative to be prog rock. If you are that type of person, progressive hip hop exists. If you are a genre type, then it doesn't exist. It falls on the person.   Well, what those persons think is not transcendental at all, Progressive Rock is a genre, there’s no way to deny that, people included here Radiohead because they believe this band use some Progressive Rock elements (I believe that’s partially truth but still they are not a Prog band) they even compare them with Pink Floyd.   Progressive Hip Hop as an adjective, well….for some people maybe, I still haven’t heard something so revolutionary and essential that makes a strong difference, at the end it’s only the repetition of one or two chords with a strong rhythm pattern.   And no it doesn’t fall in the person. Progressive Rock is a genre, like or not, get it or not, understand it or not, you can’t change that. First you accuse rap of being by definition limited and crude and rap artists of not being creative because they adhere to the confines of rap. And then you say prog is great and that it is a GENRE. If it is indeed a genre and you advocate staying true to it, then you're also advocating limiting oneself to the confines of this genre. Therefore you're advocating the lack of progress.  Respectfully, you are contradicting yourself. I know what I heard the jazz guy play, and it was definatly hip hop. Hip hop descended from jazz, so don't give me sh*t about how jazz is real music and hip hop isn't. Now, about "the fact that the drummer was once a hip hop musicians says nothing about his skills when playing real music." What I am implying is that he was a talented drummer at jazz, and I assume he was talented at hip-hop, since you don't change skill levels when you switch genres. that means there are talented hip-hop musicians.   There’s not such thing as Prog or Hip Hop musicians, Genesis is the best example, the same band that played really complex and essential Prog played POP albums at the end of their career. Look at Randy “The Emperor” Jackson, he once played with Journey, Jean Luc Ponty and Jazz Icons as Aretha Franklin and Billy Cobham, but he found later that it was more profitable to play with Madonna and N’Sync and landed as judge of a Karaoke contest as American Idol instead of making great music.   There are musicians that play Prog, Jazz or Hip Hop, you’re talking about a drummer that can play Jazz and Hip Hop´, nothing else. Now, please don't stick me with comments like this is a prog forum, and anything else is unwelcome. I didn't start this thread, but since it is about rap, I can talk about rap if I want. Yeah, you can talk about what you want, but there’s a non Prog Music Lounge where this thread should be, I can’t understand why it wasn’t already changed, maybe because it has the word Progressive.   And if I insist that artists from other genres like jazz can be better then prog artists, that has no impact on my appreciation of prog. I am a prog head, but I know that that great jazz artists are indeed superior to the great prog artists. I come here because I love prog. Please don't make me unwelcome merely because I like other genres.   You may like other genres, I love some POP, a lot of classic Rock, metal, Latin Music, Folk music, Jazz, etc but don’t come here with he fairytale of Progressive Rap, because that’s absolutely ridiculous. Both genres express the opposite points of the musical spectrum, while Prog searches for the most complex expression and orchestration, Rap tends to the suppression of melody and harmony basing most of their sound in fast talking backgrounded by a couple of chords and strong but repetiive Rhythm patterns   Again, let's face it, prog isn't anything as complex and/or ambitious as classical, some jazz, avant garde or traditional music, so it cannot be searching for the most complex expression and orchestration. It is simply out of its reach, IMO. It's no wonder that, to make their music more complex than the average rock song, prog artists had to resort to techniques and strategies that had LONG been discovered and probably done to death by artists from the 'genres' I've named. And, I think, this is why Zappa, Fripp and some others rejected prog. It's simply not very progressive. It may be progressive for rock, but on the whole, it's nothing groundbreaking. Same goes for what one could call progressive rap; it isn't any better or any worse in that respect.    Or is it? Anthony Braxton respects rap and says that, at its best, it has many levels. Steve Coleman and Matthew Shipp actively cooperate with rap artists. Braxton's creativity and knowledge is legendary. His works are astoundingly complex and energetic. Shipp is one of the most interesting pianists of the younger generation, probably the one who will take over from Cecil Taylor. Steve Coleman is a highly accomplished and intelligent musician, as well. They are careful with words and choosy about who they play with - rightfully so. They only pick the best; those whom they consider creative and progressive.     Btw: Don't feel unwelcomed, I only answer those posts I believe that deserve to be answered, those guys who say "Genesis rules because they are the best" (And despite I'm a Genesis fan) don't deserve such a long reply, because dogmas are for church, arguiments are for debate. I think I covered all bases.   Me too   Iván   Me three

Well, that’s the way I do it without cutting sentences or ideas, if  you like it OK if not, I can’t do it on another way because  you’re making a hell of a long post.

First off, I was being sarcastic when I called KC "underground". Anyone who is actually into rap the same way we are into prog will know those two. As a matter of fact, if you go into a record store, you almost guaranteed to find those albums. More likely then finding a king crimson album (which I have trouble with in chain stores, imo. You are lucky, I have to order mine).

That “You are lucky, I have to order mine” is or sarcasm or you live in Tibet, as a fact I live in Perú and find almost any King Crimson album in any record store, also bought a lot of albums outside my country, specially in USA and never had any problem buying anything I searched for except Triumvirat which is very hard to find being a German release.

But if you go to any store, you find any 50 cents Rap or Hip Hop album, to be honest for me not any Rap or Hip Hop album is worth those 50 cents, but each time somebody talks me about a supposedly “great rap artist” I manage to get something and find the same crap, probably in a nicer package, but the same sh!t IMO.

This is an interesting point 50 cents rap…… Have you ever heard of 50 cents Prog? I haven’t, you know why? Because Prog is a genre that search for excellence, some achieve this, some fail in the attempt, but those bands that play Prog’ know from the start they are going to have a hard time, because Prog is not commercial, they don’t search for the easy formula, they search for the harder one.

The low end theory, apparently, is considered a "classic" the same way rock fans consider Led zepplin IV a classic. Neither album is an exception, except to today's sh*tty gangsta' rap, which has nothing to do with real rap, except as a hyperbole from real rap.

That sh*tty Gangsta Rap as you call it (Well all Rap is sh!tty for me) is the real Rap born in the streets, the “so called” elegant or classic or good or talented Rap is oly a hybrid mixed of different sounds and genres that lost all his rap essence.

Judging Hip-hop from bands like 50-cent is like judging prog from bands like pink floyd.

Pink Floyd is an excellent band and I wish more bands sounded like them, it’s a classic and more precisely is one of the cornerstones of the genre, a band that evolved dramatically from British Psychedelia (Very original expression of it) to something absolutely new with a very elaborate atmospheric sound excellent guitar (virtuoso to say the less) by Dave Gilmour and dramatic lyrics by both Dave and Roger (Not the crappy stuff most rappers play).

Neither is what the genre is really like. Lets go back a little, okay? So, there is this revolution somewhat like the white punk revolution, but for blacks. So, it is real genuine music, and lots of the classics like low end theory are released.

No, it’s not a revolution, it’s not something that appeared from the nothingness, rap was a process, but inverse to Prog, while Prog is the evolution (In a Darwinian sense) of simple Rock getting ore elaborate and complex, Rap is the over simplification of  lets say a b*****d son of Jazz and R&B that abandons real music (with the excuse that the instruments are too expensive) to create a form of poetry backgrounded by a couple of chords in many cases ripped from real artists.

You know who made a real intelligent predecessor of Rap, Bob Dylan but he blended Country elements like in Suberranean Homesick Blues

 Some guys make a record about crime in the city and stuff, and it sells like mad, so the record companies encourage artists to go that route. All of a sudden, hip hop is the new thing, just like punk. And, just like punk getting compromised by bands like good charloette, rap got compromised by bands like ludacris. So, is good charloette real punk? No, it is a commercial genre. Just like gangsta rap. They are commercial genres, not real genres. People who were with hip hop from the beginning will tell you that what is on the radio now is not what they would consider hip hop. Just like you guys don't consider SOAD prog. The fact is, a few bands sell almost all of the records. So, they sell the majority of records, so you might say that the majority of hip hop is that sh*t. But, if you look in terms of artists, the majority of artists are not like that at all. So, I consider it the mojority of hip hop released is not the sh*t you call hip hop on the radio. This isn't strange or mysterious in any way. As a matter of fact, the sales rank is about the same as in the court of the crimson king. So much for being this great exception that no ones heard of.

Haven’t touched the whole paragraph so you don’t say I cut your ideas, but that nonsense of a few guys talking about crimes in the sitt7y is ignoring the essence of Rap. Rap is not at invented word, is described buy any dictionary:

Rap: 2 a : a sharp rebuke or criticism b : a negative and often undeserved reputation or charge -- usually used with bum or bad <given a bum rap by the press

And that’s the reason of Rap, to criticize, of course it’s ridiculous to see a lot of guys rapping about oppression and poverty with enough gold in their bodies to feed a small country for months. Their essence is to criticize everything, throw the blame on society of crime, violence and everything that is wrong but not assuming any share of that blame, so don’t come me with the cr*p that rap was perverted by a bunch of idiots that found the magic formula, the truth is that Rap was born perverted.

Please don’t come with that sad story that only a few artists play all the bad rap and the vast majority plays the sh!tty one, that’s as false as a US$ 2.25 coin

About the prog thing. Some people think of prog as a descriptive word. THen some people think of prog as a genre. Radiohead is not really related to the prog genre, but a ton of people call them progressive. Same thing about progressive hip-hop. Some people consider artistic and innovative to be prog rock. If you are that type of person, progressive hip hop exists. If you are a genre type, then it doesn't exist. It falls on the person.

Well, what those persons think is not transcendental at all, Progressive Rock is a genre, there’s no way to deny that, people included here Radiohead because they believe this band use some Progressive Rock elements (I believe that’s partially truth but still they are not a Prog band) they even compare them with Pink Floyd.

Progressive Hip Hop as an adjective, well….for some people maybe, I still haven’t heard something so revolutionary and essential that makes a strong difference, at the end it’s only the repetition of one or two chords with a strong rhythm pattern.

And no it doesn’t fall in the person. Progressive Rock is a genre, like or not, get it or not, understand it or not, you can’t change that.

I know what I heard the jazz guy play, and it was definatly hip hop. Hip hop descended from jazz, so don't give me sh*t about how jazz is real music and hip hop isn't. Now, about "the fact that the drummer was once a hip hop musicians says nothing about his skills when playing real music." What I am implying is that he was a talented drummer at jazz, and I assume he was talented at hip-hop, since you don't change skill levels when you switch genres. that means there are talented hip-hop musicians.

There’s not such thing as Prog or Hip Hop musicians, Genesis is the best example, the same band that played really complex and essential Prog played POP albums at the end of their career. Look at Randy “The Emperor” Jackson, he once played with Journey, Jean Luc Ponty and Jazz Icons as Aretha Franklin and Billy Cobham, but he found later that it was more profitable to play with Madonna and N’Sync and landed as judge of a Karaoke contest as American Idol instead of making great music.

There are musicians that play Prog, Jazz or Hip Hop, you’re talking about a drummer that can play Jazz and Hip Hop´, nothing else.

Now, please don't stick me with comments like this is a prog forum, and anything else is unwelcome. I didn't start this thread, but since it is about rap, I can talk about rap if I want.

Yeah, you can talk about what you want, but there’s a non Prog Music Lounge where this thread should be, I can’t understand why it wasn’t already changed, maybe because it has the word Progressive.

And if I insist that artists from other genres like jazz can be better then prog artists, that has no impact on my appreciation of prog. I am a prog head, but I know that that great jazz artists are indeed superior to the great prog artists. I come here because I love prog. Please don't make me unwelcome merely because I like other genres.

You may like other genres, I love some POP, a lot of classic Rock, metal, Latin Music, Folk music, Jazz, etc but don’t come here with he fairytale of Progressive Rap, because that’s absolutely ridiculous. Both genres express the opposite points of the musical spectrum, while Prog searches for the most complex expression and orchestration, Rap tends to the suppression of melody and harmony basing most of their sound in fast talking backgrounded by a couple of chords and strong but repetiive Rhythm patterns.

Btw: Don't feel unwelcomed, I only answer those posts I believe that deserve to be answered, those guys who say "Genesis rules because they are the best" (And despite I'm a Genesis fan) don't deserve such a long reply, because dogmas are for church, arguiments are for debate.

Me too

Iván