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dr wu23 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
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Points: 20649
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 Posted: January 03 2016 at 13:58 |
IMHO vinyl is more of a nostalgia/fad thing right now and not because of 'sound quality'. I have been listening to vinyl for a very long time being an old fart and it simply doesn't sound better....different yes,,,better no. It comes down to a matter of taste ...as always with music. Most of the younger people I know are not buying turntables and vinyl but still doing the download thingy and I Pods, etc. As an example my son in law and daughters who like to listen to popular music aren't into vinyl and my best friends kids in their early 30's aren't really into vinyl either. I have offered to give them some of my old classic rock and they said thanks but no thanks. I still buy the odd used piece if I find something interesting from the local record shops but imho buying new and old vinyl is a collectors thing and not a mainstream purchase mode with most music fans.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65550
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Posted: January 03 2016 at 13:14 |
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^ As is network TV, live radio, and movie theaters. Who'd have thought.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Hercules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Near York UK
Status: Offline
Points: 7024
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Posted: January 03 2016 at 12:44 |
 moshkito wrote:
When I look back to almost 50 years, I'm glad that the LP's are gone.
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They are actually increasing sales faster than any other medium and pressing factories are being set up to cope with demand, actually! LPs are VERY much still here.
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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17959
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Posted: December 30 2015 at 18:43 |
Nightfly wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
Nightfly wrote:
I've just got the new Opeth Deliverance/Damnation remix package on vinyl and Damnation in particular has never sounded better - lovely warm open sound. It's certainly far better than the original Cd. Deliverance, not so much, I'm on the fence.
Not prog, but 2 albums that I've never heard as good on Cd as Vinyl are Rainbow Rising, Cozy Powell's drum fill at the start of Stargazer sound way to low in the mix on all versions i've heard compared to my original vinyl, even a 180gm audiphile version, though still much better than the Cd.
Deep Purple's Made In Japan, the power and depth from the grooves of my original 70's vinyl version have never been beaten unless there's a version I've not heard. The Cd sounds very thin in comparison. |
I agree with you, 70's power rock/metal almost always sounds better on vinyl, especially the original issues. The mix on drums has that big beefy sound on vinyl. The CD versions always sound thin and without beef, those lower tones seem to fail with digital for some reason.
The best thing about the recent LZ reissues on vinyl is the big sound from Bonham, just like the original issues. On some of those I bought the super deluxe versions that included the CD, so I have done several A/B comparisons and those CDs are now drink coasters.  I was hoping they would sound better... |
I've bought all the super deluxe LZ box sets except Coda which I'll get around to and the vinyl in particular does sound great. I'm yet to do a direct comparison to my 70's LZ vinyl though. |
One reason the vinyl sounds better, to my ears, is they are pressed from the 24bit masters and the CDs are truncated down to redbook which is 16bit..so some detail is missing or not heard as well as on the vinyl versions. Just a thought.....
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RoeDent
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 08 2009
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 850
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Posted: December 30 2015 at 17:48 |
This feels like a good place to post an observation I have:
Karn Evil 9 by ELP is so long (29:37) that it can't fit on one side of vinyl, so in some ways it paved the way for the long epics we see today by the likes of Transatlantic (or most of Neal Morse's bands) and The Flower Kings. The rise of the CD meant we are now able to hear these long pieces uninterrupted.
Edited by RoeDent - December 30 2015 at 17:49
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Nightfly
Special Collaborator
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Joined: August 01 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3659
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Posted: December 30 2015 at 17:17 |
Catcher10 wrote:
Nightfly wrote:
I've just got the new Opeth Deliverance/Damnation remix package on vinyl and Damnation in particular has never sounded better - lovely warm open sound. It's certainly far better than the original Cd. Deliverance, not so much, I'm on the fence.
Not prog, but 2 albums that I've never heard as good on Cd as Vinyl are Rainbow Rising, Cozy Powell's drum fill at the start of Stargazer sound way to low in the mix on all versions i've heard compared to my original vinyl, even a 180gm audiphile version, though still much better than the Cd.
Deep Purple's Made In Japan, the power and depth from the grooves of my original 70's vinyl version have never been beaten unless there's a version I've not heard. The Cd sounds very thin in comparison. |
I agree with you, 70's power rock/metal almost always sounds better on vinyl, especially the original issues. The mix on drums has that big beefy sound on vinyl. The CD versions always sound thin and without beef, those lower tones seem to fail with digital for some reason.
The best thing about the recent LZ reissues on vinyl is the big sound from Bonham, just like the original issues. On some of those I bought the super deluxe versions that included the CD, so I have done several A/B comparisons and those CDs are now drink coasters. I was hoping they would sound better... |
I've bought all the super deluxe LZ box sets except Coda which I'll get around to and the vinyl in particular does sound great. I'm yet to do a direct comparison to my 70's LZ vinyl though.
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Meltdowner
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 25 2013
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 10273
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Posted: December 30 2015 at 11:43 |
Catcher10 wrote:
The best thing about the recent LZ reissues on vinyl is the big sound from Bonham, just like the original issues. On some of those I bought the super deluxe versions that included the CD, so I have done several A/B comparisons and those CDs are now drink coasters. I was hoping they would sound better...
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True, I also have some LZ coasters now 
moshkito wrote:
Except Klaus Schulze ... the mix is always different and the listen ... another treat! And sometimes even longer ... and longer ... and longer ... and you become serialized heavenly experienced! |
I agree, Schulze is one of the exceptions.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18005
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Posted: December 30 2015 at 11:38 |
Catcher10 wrote:
..."dude we are paying to press for a 74 min CD, can't you guys come up with more??" Hence the birth of the "Bonus Tracks".... |
Except Klaus Schulze ... the mix is always different and the listen ... another treat! And sometimes even longer ... and longer ... and longer ... and you become serialized heavenly experienced!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17959
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Posted: December 30 2015 at 11:27 |
Nightfly wrote:
I've just got the new Opeth Deliverance/Damnation remix package on vinyl and Damnation in particular has never sounded better - lovely warm open sound. It's certainly far better than the original Cd. Deliverance, not so much, I'm on the fence.
Not prog, but 2 albums that I've never heard as good on Cd as Vinyl are Rainbow Rising, Cozy Powell's drum fill at the start of Stargazer sound way to low in the mix on all versions i've heard compared to my original vinyl, even a 180gm audiphile version, though still much better than the Cd.
Deep Purple's Made In Japan, the power and depth from the grooves of my original 70's vinyl version have never been beaten unless there's a version I've not heard. The Cd sounds very thin in comparison. |
I agree with you, 70's power rock/metal almost always sounds better on vinyl, especially the original issues. The mix on drums has that big beefy sound on vinyl. The CD versions always sound thin and without beef, those lower tones seem to fail with digital for some reason.
The best thing about the recent LZ reissues on vinyl is the big sound from Bonham, just like the original issues. On some of those I bought the super deluxe versions that included the CD, so I have done several A/B comparisons and those CDs are now drink coasters. I was hoping they would sound better...
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Nightfly
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 01 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3659
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Posted: December 30 2015 at 08:36 |
I've just got the new Opeth Deliverance/Damnation remix package on vinyl and Damnation in particular has never sounded better - lovely warm open sound. It's certainly far better than the original Cd. Deliverance, not so much, I'm on the fence.
Not prog, but 2 albums that I've never heard as good on Cd as Vinyl are Rainbow Rising, Cozy Powell's drum fill at the start of Stargazer sound way to low in the mix on all versions i've heard compared to my original vinyl, even a 180gm audiphile version, though still much better than the Cd.
Deep Purple's Made In Japan, the power and depth from the grooves of my original 70's vinyl version have never been beaten unless there's a version I've not heard. The Cd sounds very thin in comparison.
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Guillermo
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 28 2004
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 814
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Posted: December 30 2015 at 07:59 |
The YES "Relayer" album is better in the LP format, in my opinion. All the CD versions that I have (1988, 1994, 2003) have earlier fade-outs in comparison to the LP version at the end of all songs. So, the final keyboard notes, particularly in "The Gates of Delirium" and "To Be Over", are faded out a few seconds (3-5 seconds). Being one of my favorite albums from YES, I still like more the LP. Anyway, I think that the best CD version of this album is the 1988 version, with less seconds cut at the end of the songs.
Some CD editions of Prog or not Prog albums are not as good as the original LPs, because during the remastering process some songs are faded in later (for example, one songs in Jim Capaldi's "Oh How We Danced" album on CD from 1996) or faded out earlier (for example, one song in George Harrison's "Living in the Material World" remastered CD from 2006). Others lack bass (like the first version on CD from Grand Funk Railroad's "Closer to Home" CD from 1988; the LP from 1971 sounds better!).
Edited by Guillermo - December 30 2015 at 08:11
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Avatar: Photo of Solar Eclipse, Mexico City, July 1991. A great experience to see. Maybe once in a lifetime.
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Neu!mann
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 21 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 690
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 16:46 |
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...on the other hand, an album like Hawkwind's Space Ritual is absolutely essential on vinyl, just because of the packaging!
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"we can change the world without anyone noticing the difference" - Franco Falsini
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Neu!mann
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 21 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 690
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 16:45 |
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I think the real value of CDs over vinyl can be heard in the digital re-release of live albums, which don't disrupt the concert experience by having to flip the disc over.
A good example: Grobschnitt's 1978 Solar Music Live album...the original LP was interrupted abruptly in mid-jam at the end of Side One; the compact disc is a seamless flow of music. A lot of other live albums share the same benefit...
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"we can change the world without anyone noticing the difference" - Franco Falsini
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Meltdowner
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 25 2013
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 10273
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 14:21 |
Warthur wrote:
Sztermel wrote:
Albums like recent Jethro Tull, VDGG or Yes re-editions are better on the CD as they contain unreleased tracks, singles, demos that are usually very good quality. |
Tales From Topographic Oceans seems to be a case in point here, since the remastered version has an intro to the first track restored which wouldn't have fitted on the LP versions - the LP and earlier CD versions have that very abrupt start which is always a little jarring. |
I thought there was something wrong with my copy, the first time I played it
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17959
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 14:06 |
Warthur wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
I enjoy your posts Pedro..but the LP is not gone, it never was gone and for the foreseeable future is not going anywhere. I don't have statistics but I would venture to say that the CD has lost more ground to digital files than the LP lost to CD back in the 90's. |
I think you are right, to the extent that CDs lend themselves to be replaced by lossless digital files more easily than vinyl albums. A properly functioning CD player will read the same information from the CD each time, for instance, whereas with vinyl the needle will pick up something mildly different each time the disc is played (and there's an extent to which this is part of the charm).
| Genesis early albums are poo-poo, as the mix was done badly. The CD reissues are no better, the 2008 remixes by Nick Davis to vinyl are glorious. |
I have to admit, as much affection as I have for Trespass, I have never found a copy on any format which didn't sound like it was recorded through a thick layer of socks. Though my vinyl copy does feel like a mild improvement over CD.
| Yes on vinyl is much better than Yes on those reissue CDs, except for CTTE on vinyl was not good, when compared to my remixed vinyl version. |
I would say that classic Yes albums are worth having LP copies of even if you only ever listen to the CDs (or high-quality downloads), because CD-sized packaging just can't do the Roger Dean artwork justice. |
I have all classic Yes albums on vinyl. The Yes Album I have is a German pressing so SQ is excellent, worth a bit more than my US edition. I say this because you brought up a good point in your original post about different pressings and such....Certain pressing plants did better work than others and also some issues were mixed/mastered by different engineers and studios, depending on your desire it makes sense to do some research to find the best sounding version people recommend. The Steve Hoffman website/forums is a great place for this type of info, those guys there are meticulous about their vinyl, a bit over board sometimes
Edited by Catcher10 - December 29 2015 at 14:12
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20649
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 13:38 |
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Both formats have their pros and cons......I usually play cd's since it's more convenient these days but I will put on an old vinyl now and then. I don't buy any new vinyl but still look for old prog and psych ( I like the art work as many have said and it's just fun to hunt things down sometimes...). As I had said to Catcher10 my old vinyl can sound a little noisy at times so he recommended a new type of cartridge which might help that aspect, but I will probably still play more cd's in the future . Much of my listening these days is in the car to and from the office so cd's have to be the format. I just don't get enough time to play vinyl due to family and work things.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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Warthur
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 06 2008
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 617
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 13:00 |
Catcher10 wrote:
I enjoy your posts Pedro..but the LP is not gone, it never was gone and for the foreseeable future is not going anywhere. I don't have statistics but I would venture to say that the CD has lost more ground to digital files than the LP lost to CD back in the 90's. |
I think you are right, to the extent that CDs lend themselves to be replaced by lossless digital files more easily than vinyl albums. A properly functioning CD player will read the same information from the CD each time, for instance, whereas with vinyl the needle will pick up something mildly different each time the disc is played (and there's an extent to which this is part of the charm).
| Genesis early albums are poo-poo, as the mix was done badly. The CD reissues are no better, the 2008 remixes by Nick Davis to vinyl are glorious. |
I have to admit, as much affection as I have for Trespass, I have never found a copy on any format which didn't sound like it was recorded through a thick layer of socks. Though my vinyl copy does feel like a mild improvement over CD.
| Yes on vinyl is much better than Yes on those reissue CDs, except for CTTE on vinyl was not good, when compared to my remixed vinyl version. |
I would say that classic Yes albums are worth having LP copies of even if you only ever listen to the CDs (or high-quality downloads), because CD-sized packaging just can't do the Roger Dean artwork justice.
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Warthur
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 06 2008
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 617
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 12:56 |
Sztermel wrote:
Albums like recent Jethro Tull, VDGG or Yes re-editions are better on the CD as they contain unreleased tracks, singles, demos that are usually very good quality. |
Tales From Topographic Oceans seems to be a case in point here, since the remastered version has an intro to the first track restored which wouldn't have fitted on the LP versions - the LP and earlier CD versions have that very abrupt start which is always a little jarring.
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Catcher10
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Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
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Points: 17959
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 12:13 |
^ I think we maybe saying the same thing.....I 100% agree it is about the music and not the length or the format. I think it may happen all the time that an artist is told to cut the time down, or actually they themselves cut it down some, we as fans have zero control over that. We buy what is issued and play it.....
I think the CD allowed an artist, possibly made them feel the need, to come up with more music to add to the 74 minute CD format. So what if their music was only 45 minutes long, they were happy with that felt it was complete, the label tells them...."dude we are paying to press for a 74 min CD, can't you guys come up with more??" Hence the birth of the "Bonus Tracks".
I agree, don't think vinyl or CD will be the standard for anything only options for delivering music to the fans.
Also remember everything tastes like chicken......
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18005
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Posted: December 29 2015 at 11:52 |
Catcher10 wrote:
I enjoy your posts Pedro..but the LP is not gone, it never was gone and for the foreseeable future is not going anywhere. ... |
I just don't think that they will become the standard for anything ... like "tape" ... it died after a certain amount of time, and no one uses it anymore ... and pretty soon all we need is someone saying that they are recording on the 4 track tape because the chicken tastes better. By that time, "digital", and CD, will be far better and the limitations that were there before will likely be a lot less problematic. By the time you listen to Tom Dowd's special you'll realize what I said ... I don't mean that 20 is mandatory and that things have to be 30. Or 50 and not 34. In other words, I want the music to be music, and I will never tell Tony Banks or Rick Wakeman that those 6 and a half minutes were "filler' ... on a piece of music. It's a fine line ... now you are suggesting that a longer piece of music has "filler", or that a band with less talent, only added more "songs', because they still had 14 minutes of space left on the CD. That is not what I was on about, and that is nothing but a pop/rock situation, and has very little to do with "serious" music, if I can borrow a Frank Zappa word or two. You don't go around, showing us how much of Shakespeare's "As You Like It" is with "filler", that makes it be a play that is 27 minutes too long! That is my only point ... and it bothers me, that you create a nice piece of music, and someone comes up to you, and says ... you have to cut it ... and make 2 different pieces of music, because it is too many minutes for this or that reason! On that day, you will probably be so disappointed with the whole music business ... you'll cry before you figure out to do with your child ... cut it in half!!!! No way!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Prog albums - CD vs. vinyl
