Prog albums - CD vs. vinyl
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Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=105329
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Topic: Prog albums - CD vs. vinyl
Posted By: Warthur
Subject: Prog albums - CD vs. vinyl
Date Posted: December 28 2015 at 20:30
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This is not a thread about whether vinyl or CD is the better medium in the abstract - let's face it, that discussion's been had over and over again since the 1980s and it's one of those subjects where everyone has more or less already decided what they think. Instead, I'd like to talk about particular prog albums where in your estimation the vinyl release is better than the CD release, or the CD release is better than the vinyl release - or where both versions are good, but in different ways. In an ideal world, both the vinyl and CD versions of an album would be painstakingly prepared for the mediums in question and be of comparable quality, but I think we all know that only very lucky albums end up getting treated with that level of respect. Sometimes the CD release of an album originally released on vinyl was a half-assed rush job (particularly in the early days of CDs), and sometimes the vinyl issue of an album is likewise put out as an afterthought, or runs into technical limitations of the medium. (For instance, whilst you could push up to 25 minutes or beyond on a vinyl side, I understand that in practice when artists do that there's usually a sacrifice in sound quality as a result.) And even when the CD and vinyl versions of an album are both as best as they can be made, they can still differ interestingly - particularly if people have gone to the effort of making different CD and vinyl mixes to account for the different properties of the mediums. So, what albums do you know which you prefer in CD to vinyl, or vinyl to CD, where you've had access to both? I have to nominate Tangerine Dream's Zeit as a piece I much prefer to listen to on CD, because nothing disrupts a supposedly ambient, minimalistic listening experience like having to change sides every so often. Likewise, I really want to track down good-quality vinyl versions of Soft Machine's Volume One and Two albums, because whilst the CD version I have combining the two is a nice compilation, it is a fairly early CD release and I do wonder whether the vinyl versions come across better.
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Replies:
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: December 29 2015 at 07:23
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As for 3D movies, CD albums are better when they have been conceived for CD. AAD has no sense, if not for saving space at home. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Sztermel
Date Posted: December 29 2015 at 09:09
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Albums like recent Jethro Tull, VDGG or Yes re-editions are better on the CD as they contain unreleased tracks, singles, demos that are usually very good quality. |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: December 29 2015 at 09:14
| I have plenty of electronic music on CD, for the same reason you mentioned, but for most music I listen, I prefer vinyl. Curiously, I have Atom Heart Mother on CD and vinyl and I like both, they have really good quality and the mixes are quite different: there are some things I like more on one and others I like more on the other. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 29 2015 at 10:06
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Hi, When I look back to almost 50 years, I'm glad that the LP's are gone. In many ways, they were very nice ... as it helped bring music to the public ... in some other ways, they were HORRIBLE ... because that also meant that some folks could do it, and some could not, and even Tom Dowd's special mentions this in his small discussion of black music in America after the WW2. Those who had it, got it ... that is the movie studios ... and those who didn't ... don't get nothing and they can not sell or show up in radio or tv ...for another 20 some years. I do not know how to discuss this in terms of Europe, and won't. This is strictly about the American side of things at this point. One other detail is important ... we know that music varies in length, and one of the worst things in the LP era, was that it forced music to be trimmed, or brought up to a certain length that we ended up thinking is the standard. THERE IS NO "STANDARD" FOR LENGTH IN MUSIC! AND THERE SHOULDN'T BE! And this was the LP's biggest downfalls. In many cases, even classical music was trimmed to fit the LP's ... magically, all the symphonies and Concerto's of classical music, all fit a LP just right. All operas were the LP's long, except Tosca (2) and Wagner (mandatory 4), which of course hurt its sales in America ... not to mention performance ... way too long and no one can sit through something lasting well into 3 hours! At that point, music appreciation changes ... you become concerned with your butt, and not the work itself, and you are ready to leave before it finishes! Or, just like many of the progressive music fans in this board, they love to say that the musical passages are just filler, and not necessary! The CD age, has busted this, and hopefully in the next 10 years, it will send the music business back to its origins ... it's about the music, not the length, and pop music standards do not apply to ANY OTHER MUSIC OUT THERE! Myself, I simply do not wish to see "progressive" or "prog" associated with the standards and crap that is pop/rock music! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 29 2015 at 10:07
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Hi, And it even makes me cry ... do you realize how many LP's had the long piece of music "banded' that were issued to radio stations in America? YES, was probably the biggest recipient of that insulting program ... btw! There is not a single LP I would rather have than a CD ... except for a few covers ... love the foldout in Space Ritual, or the fold out in Be Good to Yourself At least Once a Day ... and the beautiful art that Hipgnosis and others created, but otherwise ... I'm glad to see the LP gone.
------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 29 2015 at 11:27
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I enjoy your posts Pedro..but the LP is not gone, it never was gone and for the foreseeable future is not going anywhere. I don't have statistics but I would venture to say that the CD has lost more ground to digital files than the LP lost to CD back in the 90's. The length of an LP side is finite, of course...but so is a CD at 74 minutes total, changed from the original CD format of 60 minutes because Sony wanted to press some Beethoven concert as 74 minutes, so they made the CD bigger. You can go to 80 minutes but have to change the pitch of the songs to make them fit which goes outside the parameters of redbook, which risks the chance that your CD player will not read the disc. To me what the CD has done is allowed artists to include a bunch of extra/bonus/filler songs to fill up the disc. Some of it good, some bad and some just down right not needed, alternate tracks of the original or these special acoustic or non lyric versions.....filler essentially, allowing them to ask for more money..(King Crimson Road To Red 20 some odd CDs)...just saying....Love KC. Regarding classical music, to me it should only be on CD or hi-rez digital files, because of all the quiet passages....Although life and live concerts have distortion, noise, coughing, sneezing, farting, snoring......  The Soft Machine albums I have are better on vinyl. Never cared for the CD versions Porcupine Tree In Absentia on CD is damn good, a tad better than the vinyl version, barely though. Most all Marillion is better sounding on vinyl, Season's End on CD is pretty good and give it the nod...but the others are not even close. Genesis early albums are poo-poo, as the mix was done badly. The CD reissues are no better, the 2008 remixes by Nick Davis to vinyl are glorious. Yes on vinyl is much better than Yes on those reissue CDs, except for CTTE on vinyl was not good, when compared to my remixed vinyl version. I have more I am sure, and remember I am only talking about redbook CD compared to vinyl. -------------   
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 29 2015 at 11:52
I just don't think that they will become the standard for anything ... like "tape" ... it died after a certain amount of time, and no one uses it anymore ... and pretty soon all we need is someone saying that they are recording on the 4 track tape because the chicken tastes better. By that time, "digital", and CD, will be far better and the limitations that were there before will likely be a lot less problematic. By the time you listen to Tom Dowd's special you'll realize what I said ... I don't mean that 20 is mandatory and that things have to be 30. Or 50 and not 34. In other words, I want the music to be music, and I will never tell Tony Banks or Rick Wakeman that those 6 and a half minutes were "filler' ... on a piece of music. It's a fine line ... now you are suggesting that a longer piece of music has "filler", or that a band with less talent, only added more "songs', because they still had 14 minutes of space left on the CD. That is not what I was on about, and that is nothing but a pop/rock situation, and has very little to do with "serious" music, if I can borrow a Frank Zappa word or two. You don't go around, showing us how much of Shakespeare's "As You Like It" is with "filler", that makes it be a play that is 27 minutes too long! That is my only point ... and it bothers me, that you create a nice piece of music, and someone comes up to you, and says ... you have to cut it ... and make 2 different pieces of music, because it is too many minutes for this or that reason! On that day, you will probably be so disappointed with the whole music business ... you'll cry before you figure out to do with your child ... cut it in half!!!! No way! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Catcher10 wrote:Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 29 2015 at 12:13
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^ I think we maybe saying the same thing.....I 100% agree it is about the music and not the length or the format. I think it may happen all the time that an artist is told to cut the time down, or actually they themselves cut it down some, we as fans have zero control over that. We buy what is issued and play it..... I think the CD allowed an artist, possibly made them feel the need, to come up with more music to add to the 74 minute CD format. So what if their music was only 45 minutes long, they were happy with that felt it was complete, the label tells them...."dude we are paying to press for a 74 min CD, can't you guys come up with more??" Hence the birth of the "Bonus Tracks".I agree, don't think vinyl or CD will be the standard for anything only options for delivering music to the fans. Also remember everything tastes like chicken...... -------------
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Posted By: Warthur
Date Posted: December 29 2015 at 12:56
Tales From Topographic Oceans seems to be a case in point here, since the remastered version has an intro to the first track restored which wouldn't have fitted on the LP versions - the LP and earlier CD versions have that very abrupt start which is always a little jarring.
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Posted By: Warthur
Date Posted: December 29 2015 at 13:00
I think you are right, to the extent that CDs lend themselves to be replaced by lossless digital files more easily than vinyl albums. A properly functioning CD player will read the same information from the CD each time, for instance, whereas with vinyl the needle will pick up something mildly different each time the disc is played (and there's an extent to which this is part of the charm).
I have to admit, as much affection as I have for Trespass, I have never found a copy on any format which didn't sound like it was recorded through a thick layer of socks. Though my vinyl copy does feel like a mild improvement over CD.
I would say that classic Yes albums are worth having LP copies of even if you only ever listen to the CDs (or high-quality downloads), because CD-sized packaging just can't do the Roger Dean artwork justice.
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Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: December 29 2015 at 13:38
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Both formats have their pros and cons......I usually play cd's since it's more convenient these days but I will put on an old vinyl now and then. I don't buy any new vinyl but still look for old prog and psych ( I like the art work as many have said and it's just fun to hunt things down sometimes...). As I had said to Catcher10 my old vinyl can sound a little noisy at times so he recommended a new type of cartridge which might help that aspect, but I will probably still play more cd's in the future . Much of my listening these days is in the car to and from the office so cd's have to be the format. I just don't get enough time to play vinyl due to family and work things. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 29 2015 at 14:06
I have all classic Yes albums on vinyl. The Yes Album I have is a German pressing so SQ is excellent, worth a bit more than my US edition. I say this because you brought up a good point in your original post about different pressings and such....Certain pressing plants did better work than others and also some issues were mixed/mastered by different engineers and studios, depending on your desire it makes sense to do some research to find the best sounding version people recommend. The Steve Hoffman website/forums is a great place for this type of info, those guys there are meticulous about their vinyl, a bit over board sometimes
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Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: December 29 2015 at 14:21
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Posted By: Neu!mann
Date Posted: December 29 2015 at 16:45
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I think the real value of CDs over vinyl can be heard in the digital re-release of live albums, which don't disrupt the concert experience by having to flip the disc over. A good example: Grobschnitt's 1978 Solar Music Live album...the original LP was interrupted abruptly in mid-jam at the end of Side One; the compact disc is a seamless flow of music. A lot of other live albums share the same benefit... ------------- "we can change the world without anyone noticing the difference" - Franco Falsini |
Posted By: Neu!mann
Date Posted: December 29 2015 at 16:46
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...on the other hand, an album like Hawkwind's Space Ritual is absolutely essential on vinyl, just because of the packaging! ------------- "we can change the world without anyone noticing the difference" - Franco Falsini |
Posted By: Guillermo
Date Posted: December 30 2015 at 07:59
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The YES "Relayer" album is better in the LP format, in my opinion. All the CD versions that I have (1988, 1994, 2003) have earlier fade-outs in comparison to the LP version at the end of all songs. So, the final keyboard notes, particularly in "The Gates of Delirium" and "To Be Over", are faded out a few seconds (3-5 seconds). Being one of my favorite albums from YES, I still like more the LP. Anyway, I think that the best CD version of this album is the 1988 version, with less seconds cut at the end of the songs. Some CD editions of Prog or not Prog albums are not as good as the original LPs, because during the remastering process some songs are faded in later (for example, one songs in Jim Capaldi's "Oh How We Danced" album on CD from 1996) or faded out earlier (for example, one song in George Harrison's "Living in the Material World" remastered CD from 2006). Others lack bass (like the first version on CD from Grand Funk Railroad's "Closer to Home" CD from 1988; the LP from 1971 sounds better!).
------------- Avatar: Photo of Solar Eclipse, Mexico City, July 1991. A great experience to see. Maybe once in a lifetime. |
Posted By: Nightfly
Date Posted: December 30 2015 at 08:36
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I've just got the new Opeth Deliverance/Damnation remix package on vinyl and Damnation in particular has never sounded better - lovely warm open sound. It's certainly far better than the original Cd. Deliverance, not so much, I'm on the fence. Not prog, but 2 albums that I've never heard as good on Cd as Vinyl are Rainbow Rising, Cozy Powell's drum fill at the start of Stargazer sound way to low in the mix on all versions i've heard compared to my original vinyl, even a 180gm audiphile version, though still much better than the Cd. Deep Purple's Made In Japan, the power and depth from the grooves of my original 70's vinyl version have never been beaten unless there's a version I've not heard. The Cd sounds very thin in comparison.
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 30 2015 at 11:27
I agree with you, 70's power rock/metal almost always sounds better on vinyl, especially the original issues. The mix on drums has that big beefy sound on vinyl. The CD versions always sound thin and without beef, those lower tones seem to fail with digital for some reason. The best thing about the recent LZ reissues on vinyl is the big sound from Bonham, just like the original issues. On some of those I bought the super deluxe versions that included the CD, so I have done several A/B comparisons and those CDs are now drink coasters.  I was hoping they would sound better...-------------
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: December 30 2015 at 11:38
Except Klaus Schulze ... the mix is always different and the listen ... another treat! And sometimes even longer ... and longer ... and longer ... and you become serialized heavenly experienced! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: December 30 2015 at 11:43
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Posted By: Nightfly
Date Posted: December 30 2015 at 17:17
I've bought all the super deluxe LZ box sets except Coda which I'll get around to and the vinyl in particular does sound great. I'm yet to do a direct comparison to my 70's LZ vinyl though.
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Posted By: RoeDent
Date Posted: December 30 2015 at 17:48
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This feels like a good place to post an observation I have: Karn Evil 9 by ELP is so long (29:37) that it can't fit on one side of vinyl, so in some ways it paved the way for the long epics we see today by the likes of Transatlantic (or most of Neal Morse's bands) and The Flower Kings. The rise of the CD meant we are now able to hear these long pieces uninterrupted.
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: December 30 2015 at 18:43
One reason the vinyl sounds better, to my ears, is they are pressed from the 24bit masters and the CDs are truncated down to redbook which is 16bit..so some detail is missing or not heard as well as on the vinyl versions. Just a thought..... -------------
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Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: January 03 2016 at 12:44
They are actually increasing sales faster than any other medium and pressing factories are being set up to cope with demand, actually! LPs are VERY much still here. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: January 03 2016 at 13:14
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^ As is network TV, live radio, and movie theaters. Who'd have thought. ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: January 03 2016 at 13:58
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IMHO vinyl is more of a nostalgia/fad thing right now and not because of 'sound quality'. I have been listening to vinyl for a very long time being an old fart and it simply doesn't sound better....different yes,,,better no. It comes down to a matter of taste ...as always with music. Most of the younger people I know are not buying turntables and vinyl but still doing the download thingy and I Pods, etc. As an example my son in law and daughters who like to listen to popular music aren't into vinyl and my best friends kids in their early 30's aren't really into vinyl either. I have offered to give them some of my old classic rock and they said thanks but no thanks. I still buy the odd used piece if I find something interesting from the local record shops but imho buying new and old vinyl is a collectors thing and not a mainstream purchase mode with most music fans. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 03 2016 at 16:35
Yesterday is the past, the future is tomorrow and today is today......Rock n roll was dubbed a "fad", longest existing fad there is in my mind  . Vinyl is not a fad, it never went away and doubt it ever will, ask the pressing plants all over the world that have 3-6 month order files and waiting list. CDs have more of a chance of going away than vinyl does, unfortunately. CDs are not even looked at for portability anymore...why would you?? Vinyl never was, the cassette tape was the vinyl killer in the 70s, especially for portability. Today it's the digital file, regardless of resolution....the fad item is the CD, it only exists because they are cheap to make. Better sound comes in the form of hi-rez 24bit digital files, the CD pretty much is at the bottom of the audio quality spectrum with redbook standard 16bit audio.Young people today are 100% all about RIGHT NOW!! I have been a high school lacrosse coach for many years, as well as Jr High lacrosse and other youth sports. These kids have no desire to invest time and sit in their rooms like we did back in the 60s and 70s and spin records, that mentality does not exist, I hear/see it in these kids everyday almost.....Their phones are their music system along with Pandora and the like, that is their portable system too, plug into their car system and go...no fuss no muss. They have no desire to go to a record store and buy CDs let alone vinyl...Today it does not happen. As they get older, get big paying jobs, settle down and such, you might see some of them meander into vinyl, but most will stick with digital files. For us that are 45+, the nostalgia thing is there, 100%.....For me I am past the nostalgia thing, I grew up with vinyl so the nostalgia feeling has since left many years ago. Many many people I chat with on several audio forums are in the same boat, nostalgia is gone, it's simply a matter of choice on how we listen to our music and we chose vinyl because it does sound better, 100% subjective but you can't convince me other wise...by now I have done waayyyyyy too much A/B demo'ing and it's clear who the "winner" is. Now on this site, I will not argue because it is about the music, as long as all kids are listening to music regardless of what media, then I am good with it.....Music is the most important point. And back to the OP, again I think there are several CDs that are better than any other media, as well as tons of vinyl that is better. It's a matter of finding out for yourself, if you want to invest the time, in today's world "time" is not something people want to invest much time in. Slow down, sit down and listen to the music. -------------
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Posted By: Rando
Date Posted: January 03 2016 at 21:10
True - I'm also in that age bracket and besides the differences between vinyl and CD's what I also miss is the vinyl album art. For me it was the joy and anticipation of unwrapping a brand new record, looking at it, admiring it, and perhaps even picture framing it, which was also very much of the listening experience - But so much for aesthetics and nostalgia - At the same time I do like the convenience and extras that come with re-releases and remastering on CD's - and with all the other media formats available today, generally speaking vinyl will always sound better. I know it becomes a subjective thing, but today we live in a sort of attention-deficit world who might not notice or care - I'm just happy vinyl is very much alive and well - I also wonder if 'Drive-in movie theaters' will ever make a comeback! ------------- - Music is Life, that's why our hearts have beats - |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 05 2016 at 13:47
I have to tell you that on a recent trip to Fry's, the LP's they were showing off to people, I wouldn't have bought today, and when I started my collection the music I bought was way better than the crap they were advertising on a very cheap and poor turntable ... to make sure Led Zep 2 sounded even worse! All in all, my concern is that the wrong stuff is being released and pushed by people that never understood or heard the fidelity in the music, enough to have any idea of what the differences were. The majority of those LP's in there, did not have one half the quality that MP3's on 256K would have. Over rated, and I will continue closing down my record library ... 1200 LP's to go, and I will only keep about 200 to 300 of them because they are too special for me for the cover or similar something or other. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: January 05 2016 at 13:52
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Can't compare as I don't buy those insanely overpriced vinyls. ------------- |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 05 2016 at 14:37
I would be interested in seeing an offering list on some of your 1,200 LPs. And I will pay you normal used record store pricing, as I buy to listen not resell or depending on grading would use Discogs pricing. If they are in bad shape you can keep them, not interested in ruining my stylus. To my knowledge there are no mastering studios/pressing plants that accept recordings under 16bit, normally everything is at 24bit. So I can only guess if you thought the quality was that bad at mp3 at 256kbps it was the equipment they were playing it on. -------------
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 05 2016 at 14:48
Using various inflation calculators..... A price of US$8.99 in 1980-81 is worth today about US$25-25.50. I pay anywhere from $20-$30 for new vinyl......Seems very reasonable, considering the high demand of the past 5yrs for vinyl, and not "insanely overpriced". Unless your definition of "insanely overpriced" is $5.00. VG+ used vinyl goes for about $5-$8 in used record stores......  -------------
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Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: January 06 2016 at 08:42
^ no thanks, dude. Vinyl : $47.66 CD : $12.88 ------------- |
Posted By: Meltdowner
Date Posted: January 06 2016 at 08:50
| ^ That one costs less than 28 on vinyl here. I bought it on Blu-ray though. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 06 2016 at 11:31
I paid $23 for the vinyl on Amazon........Have never seen it for more than $30. Good for Steven Wilson though if he got some sales at $47.66.....Artists deserve to get paid as much as possible. And for me honestly it is about sound quality, vinyl is better for me. I have HCE on CD, vinyl and 24bit hi-rez.....the CD sounds the worst with the other two almost tied. If I had a much better digital end system the 24bit should be better, but I have zero desire to spend that kind of cash on gear for a media that is still in need of improvements. -------------
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Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: January 06 2016 at 11:43
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That's the price to pay to live in the ''plus meilleur pays du monde'', I suppose. Me, I call this Thievery!  ------------- |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 06 2016 at 12:03
I suppose.....Although in October my wife and I were on Med cruise and I stopped in a record store in Florence and prices were 25-30, for new vinyl We spent a week in Barcelona and I bought 5 records and paid 20-30 and had them ship them to my home, good prices for vinyl I have not seen in the US. Perspective.......It's all good!!  -------------
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: January 06 2016 at 12:45
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Hi, it's hard to not think that one can become cynical on this ... but my whole idea/point, still is ... the music is about the person and that person's soul ... and be it recorded on vinyl or digital ... should not make a difference, as the person will still shine ... in either process. I shudder to think that something like Layla, would not have been "found" by Tom Dowd (see his DVD), in the middle of all those tapes and examples and things done ... and take away someone's incredibly good ear for seeing, finding and making sure it gets remembered ... in music. We should not be thinking about that. What made music great, was not this or that ... it was the music itself, thus I tend to be a bit ... on the "other side" and dismiss the LP/CD/Digital discussion 99 out of 100 times. I can still feel and live and thrive listening to 21st Century Schizoid Man ... and SW's version is not any better or changes my inner feelings a single iota! And neither does the LP. And I have always believed that what I tuned in was the feeling behind the music itself and not ideas ... that have nothing to do with it all in the end. And yeah, this part can be subjective and difficult to discuss. ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Barbu
Date Posted: January 06 2016 at 13:13
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Yeah!!!! Rock, let's rock! The time has come to forget all the bullsh*t and rock!  ------------- |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: January 06 2016 at 13:18
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Interesting approach for a topic. First one that comes to mind is last years Lonely Robot album. It's not entirely my style, I won't lie about that, but there is a huge difference between the vinyl and the CD. I bought the vinyl, and got the CD with that. As soon as I played it, it was clear that the CD is a mess, compared to the vinyl. Mastering for vinyl and CD is different, but in my opinion John Mitchell messed up there. The dynamics are completely missing on the CD. If the album is good, and with John being the main composer and musician there's a fair chance it is, even if not my style, the CD does not reflect that at all simply because of bad mastering. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: January 14 2016 at 00:24
Well, if this whole discussion isn't relative to the eye of the beholder I don't what is!  Too many variables at stake to definitively say what medium really does a specific recording it's true justice. However, I shall list just a few. 1) outcomes of frequency depth or DNR is greatly affected to what he/she owns audio equipment wise. Sound reproduction and accuracy can be greatly gained or lost relative to what you process in your living room or on your head. 2) who was in charge of the audio recording itself? Certainly some audio engineers are much better than others.  3) the whole inception or purpose of CDS was to allow for a stronger and more accurate DNR because CDs on General can house far more data/information than vinyl but the unfortunate problem was that (and still is) most audio engineers in the business would abuse the digital medium by essentially making things far too loud by maxing out various frequency thresholds. Take for example the use of radio. Now on order to have a cd played through a radio wave medium to broadcast it you essentially had to record the album "louder" so when that album was broadcasted you could hear it more on a greater level, but the level of compression had to be pushed and abused to do this, so a faithful recording was simply lost. Sadly. 4) it is amazing how much data/information actually exists with in a 16 bit-depth at 44.1K. If you have an audio engineer who actually knows what he/she is doing you can get some unbelievable SQ greater than vinyl and of course vice versa. I read through this form/thread and I have to say some of the opinions made are just so incredibly false it almost angers me, but I for sure won't get into any detail about that because as we all know...well at least most of us do...that it's all about the music baby!!  Now. Just to keep to Wurthers topic of discussion. In my experience just about every Alan Parsons album possesses a greater sonic experience on CD than vinyl because of the DNR level. Iron maiden 1998 cd remaster issues don't hold a candle to the Vinyl pressings. Genesis remasters (2007) For my tastes, definitely better for me on CD but really do sound utterly fantastic on both mediums. Then again, this is again relative to what kind of sound equipment you process. Also, it is important to note that some cd and vinyl recordings were intentionally recorded in a specific manner to tailor to and for people, with higher end audio equipment. Actually, a case in point, those 2007 Genesis remasters on CD are a perfect example of just that. . Processing lower end equipment or modest budget systems make for those remasters by Nick Davis and Tony Cousins to sound like complete and utter sh*t. All in all though. Both media formats are great!! And isn't it lovely how we all get the adventure to see or hear what we ultimately love more. It's great to have choices. I for one, appreciate both. ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: January 14 2016 at 15:53
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^ I have no idea what you mean by 'false opinions' but how they sound is definitely subjective to me. All of my vinyl is original and I still buy used vinyl (if it's in decent shape) when I come across something prog or psych that I don't own. All I can say is that in most cases with my used vinyl they don't sound better than the cd's ...except in a few cases where as you pointed out the cd mastering was done poorly. I have no idea about new quality vinyl that many here are buying and I assume they are pressed better than the ones from the old days. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: January 14 2016 at 17:29
See that's the thing.....Almost all pressing plants around the world are using the same presses that were in operation in the 70s and 80s. You read about how some guy found 10 presses in a storage unit and they need to be rebuilt, but they are the same, there is no new technology for pressing vinyl. I don't think any mfg has built any new presses recently. What has improved is the audio gear we buy along with recording methods and mastering. Analog gear (turntables, cartridges and phono preamps) are soooo much better today than they were in the 70s and 80s. Even my older original pressings from the 70s sound so much better today. Steely Dan-Aja, Supertramp-Cryme, Alan Parsons-i Robot, PF-DSOtM are all known for being some of the best sounding recordings, and today they sound better than ever played on my new/modern analog gear. -------------
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Posted By: progbethyname
Date Posted: January 15 2016 at 10:03
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Absolutely correct, master Jose!! ^ :) 24 bit studio master recordings pressed onto a 180g vinyl with excellent phono stage equipment will usually put most red book CDS to shame depending on the recording of course. However, DVD's? Well that's just a whole other story and not fair to compare. Anyway man. Well said. I also still love reading your posts the 'vinyl' thread. Perhaps I should stop by and say hello again sometime. Cheers man. ------------- Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣 |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: January 17 2016 at 08:19
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24 bit exists for SACD and DVD Audio, processed at a higher rate for Blu Ray. 16 bit is the encoding that is used for the CD format and digital audio conversion is reversed to analogue from digital so that the digitally remastered recording now sounds good on vinyl. I once read that the LP bit rate was equivalent to 8 - 10 bit. Of course I'm not sure if that means pre-1983 LPs (as well as a lot afterward) or the current price for a record - (limitless). I've heard horrible LPs. The thing get stuck on is seeing as far as the format itself. But while vinyl most certainly had many faults the worst was the varying quality of the tape genration that was disributed to various pressing plants. Which is why Japanese LPs were always the best, German second, British 3rd, US and Aus a poor 4th and NZ about 259 out of 258 countries. I've recall hearing the first CD of Phiysical Graffiti and thought that I used to like this album. It sounded dreadful. No mastering for a new format, no care. As a side issue a, along with being kept on the lowest royalty rate for years it made me wonder ... about the true merits of the Ertegun tribute gig. At least now we can be sure that recordings are sourced from a common master. This is why Japanese CDs always get those extra tracks, everyone gets good recordings but the expensive Japanese market demands something extra. Even the Stones' Exile On main Street box set had an extra track. I mean.. really. An archival limited release. I've got the vinyl of On Your Feet Or On Your Knees (BOC) and it's the same as the unremastered CD you get in those varying little Original Albums CD series. The remastered CD is better than both, not hugely but it's clearer and punchier. The Genesis remasters, especially of the older albums are revelatory. Honestly, if there was integrity in the music industry these bands should have had time and expertise to have brought their recordings to the best they could rather than the LPs slung out for devoted pop fans to consume said product. Older CDs (my (Mussorsky) Pictures and Rhapsody In Blue are very dated sounding CD masters. I really need updates. Classical gets the 24 bit treatment so much (I've stacks of SACDs which sound superb) but our pop music does not. Still more of a fan relationship manipulating cash cow arrnangemnt than art music. I recall the CD issue of Songs From The Wood (Tull to all those who have been here so long they forget, unlike the fresh newbies) - it sounded, well, sticky. My Japanese remaster sounds beautiful. Still I'd like to hear and read more about the Zep and Floyd new masters. I read here that the vinyl of the latest Zep masteres are better than the CDs. Is this the CDs before the current masters of the current CD masters. Just for giggles there are now 2 vinyls of the Mothership compilation (both pre 2014 and current masters). yet I do not know if the CDs are current masters or old ones. Or which sounds beter or worse - and frankly I don't care. All this does is illustrate what a mess the inefficient music industry has made of things. Now I dare not buy something I see in a shop in case there is (usually) a better version, more complete, the deluxe edition, the super deluxe edition or the super dooper deluxe edition. So yes, sometimes I have a look around the Hoffmann fora (136 pages and counting on Bowie's 5 years box alone makes me wish for a resource more compact, a summary of what's best. Incidentally and it may be just me but I've never known the ears bleeding over compressed brick walled problem so many moan about. Is it that people are so used to something that sounds awful but they are accustomed to it (Exile, Foxtrot) that something clear sounds different and this is "logically" interpreted as bad? Or are my ears shot from the beautiful mastering of Page's DW2? (Hang on too your old records and CD issues though). Anyway I refer to the review pages often but there isn't much about the new masters and how they stand in the new playback technology etc. Some are mentioned but only a few reviews; it's like no one has the attention span to write a few paragraphs with a good conclusion and thoughtful recommendation. Trust me; it's appreciated. As and when. No pressure. cheers |
Posted By: hellogoodbye
Date Posted: January 17 2016 at 09:34
| TFTO sounds very cool on vinyl, not at all like a pretentious album. Still ambitious, but humble too. I grew up with the CD remastered version and first it was hard not to hear everything loud and clear. But finally the modesty of the original sound allowed me to appreciate more this record of Yes. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: January 17 2016 at 15:27
I have no idea what that means......but I still can't sit through that whole album in one listen....vinyl or cd. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: lostrom
Date Posted: June 01 2016 at 04:59
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Early, not remastered CDs, often sounds better then CDs made after 1995 which often are destroyed by compression and brick wall limiting and in later years also noise reduction. So it's really not a case between LP vs CD, it's a case about flat transfers or ones that has been tweaked and tempered with. ------------- lostrom |
Posted By: lostrom
Date Posted: June 01 2016 at 05:09
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... or rather, to find an edition, regardless format, that is as genuine as possible, meaning sounding as true to the original as possible. Modern remasters rarely meet up to that standards, nor does new vinyl editions, as they often are cut from digital files instead of being real AAA editions. Therefore, it's either old vinyls, early not remastered CDs or new editions that has been made correctly, but that is very very rare. ------------- lostrom |
Posted By: ALotOfBottle
Date Posted: June 01 2016 at 05:21
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I usually go with vinyl, but there are exceptions. In fact, I'm on a terrible dilemma at the moment. A fella in Poland is sellilng a new vinyl reissue of Moving Gelatine Plates' debut album for what would make about 12$. On Ebay, the CD of that album costs 12$ and it is a pretty rare vinyl. However, I've been hip for the band's music for about a week really and am sort of scared that this might be a sort of an impulse to buy it. But it is a good deal, isn't it? Help? ------------- Categories strain, crack and sometimes break, under their burden - step out of the space provided. |
Posted By: lostrom
Date Posted: June 01 2016 at 05:51
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Check out what it costs on elsewhere, if it's a good deal buy it, you can always sell it again if you regret it - perhaps even with a profit. ------------- lostrom |
Posted By: BunBun
Date Posted: June 21 2016 at 13:20
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I know this topic is a little old, but as a 22 year old female, I would go with vinyl any day. Most of the vinyl that I have whether it is a new album I just bought or it is an album from the seventies, it sounds great to me. My brand x vinyl sound great, but there are exceptions like my yes CTTE vinyl does sound muddy, which I have been meaning to buy the new remastered vinyl. Anyways, once I got into Genesis, I began to buy vinyl. I am one of those who grew up listening to pop music and I just did digital everything. Now I am pro vinyl because something about vinyl makes me feel much more involved with the music and getting into prog made me appreciate all the work that goes into the music. I love the big artworks, the feel of the vinyl, having to pull the vinyl out and drop the needle on it. It's a lot of fun, much more so than going on my Mp3 and playing each song for 30 seconds. Vinyl forces me to sit down and relax and just enjoy the album, yet I still will buy CDs because not everything is available on vinyl. Anyways, just how I feel about it. |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 21 2016 at 13:53
Welcome to PA ...... And that's how I feel at times in that it is fun to play vinyl when I have the time. But most of my listening the past few years is on the road to and from work so it's kind of hard to play vinyl in the car.  I do get the chance on the weekends to play vinyl in our 'stereo room' in the basement and for that I play used vinyl from the old days because I don't spend money on reissues no matter what the quality is supposed to be regarding the sound. I want to save the cash and hunt for that old obscure prog or psych vinyl at record shops near me for the fun of it, but I'm not so into the 'vinyl experience' that I want to spend money on new issue vinyl. And as always this is a subjective thing. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: BunBun
Date Posted: June 21 2016 at 14:13
Thanks for the welcome,and I definitely hear you on the reissue thing. I really only buy reissues if I have to have the album and if I know I'm not going to find it in great shape for like 3-5 dollars. The money reason is part of why i havent yet bought that Yes CTTE reissue lol even though I keep thinking I will even after like a whole year. I think, gee, i only spent 3 dollars on the vinyl why spend an extra 25 dollars for the same album. But I am glad for some of the reissues like I got Banco's Darwin on album for about $14, i dont think Im likely to find one in a record shop around my area anytime soon. Anyways, I have a lot of music on MP3 because it is nice to have it on the go or when im going somewhere, but i rarely ever listen to a whole album on my MP3. It can be hard to find time for vinyl listening, but since i dont have too many responsibilities im lucky in that i do get some good time throughout the week to listen to my vinyl collection |
Posted By: NotAProghead
Date Posted: June 21 2016 at 14:25
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Both versions of "Yessongs" are awful. Drums on CD sound, using Keith Richards' words, like "sh*ts falling on the tin roof", while LP tortures my ears with extremely uncomfortable high and mid frequences. ------------- Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour) |
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: June 21 2016 at 14:56
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^ I haven't played 'Yessongs' in a long time......my vinyl copy is an original and interestingly that is a very common used album I see in the old vinyl stores. Apparently everyone must have bought that in the past and then sold it. ------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin |
Posted By: BunBun
Date Posted: June 21 2016 at 22:10
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yessongs is a very common one, i literally see that album everywhere when i record shop |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: June 27 2016 at 05:56
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I used to see Tales on sale constantly in the record buying daze. One shop in a rather derogatory manner sold copies for 83 cents. So now I find out Revealing Science has an intro. Hmm. Just when I thought my Japanese import would do... I once put an "idea" out that recordings should be treated like software with free or low cost upgrades given the proof of a purchased copy. This is why I would love everything in hi res audio. Complete beautiful sound, no interruptions, no clicks and no dodgy old records mastered from ??generation tape or some digital mastering by someone who is used to shrill sounds. So it's not fair to compare? Yes it is. With format availability, cost and easy free access then make the best audio available. Perhaps some recordings should sound fine on CD rather than DVD but it's nice to find out. If people are so concerned about sound quality rather than using this as an idea to fetishize art work then we would have hi res audio. So long as the mastering is done well then a good digital copy, preferably hi res will do me best. Records? Tapes? For a while I was nearly sold on the idea until I tried it one last time and found the whole experience frankly dated. The one thing that makes me laugh is some loving high quality remasters but only in mono. Now there is something unnatural - unless it is Bob Dylan with guitar, vocal, harp, cymbals on his own. Mono is preferred to hideous stereo mastering but as you don't get that now and certainly not in prog rock. Oh and while my system is far from the high end I do think the Genesis remasters sound superb. Foxtrot now sounds like the tape heads have been demagnetized. Oh one other thing, the plural of vinyl is vinyl. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: June 27 2016 at 17:00
Welcome! You should pop on over to the Vinyl thread and post your listens, we would like to know. Most of us post a pic of the album playing, you will see, but just a listing works too......Don't think we have any females posting vinyl, would be good to have diversity! You hit the nail on the head when you wrote "...something about vinyl makes me feel much more involved with the music..." -------------
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Posted By: The misanthrope
Date Posted: September 07 2016 at 20:06
| I prefer the record version of Living in the Past by Jethro Tull to the CD version, aside from the great band pictures there are songs on the album which do not appear on the CD. |
Posted By: siLLy puPPy
Date Posted: September 07 2016 at 20:30
| This is really a case by case dilemna. There are LPs that rule above their CD counterparts and vice versa. I wish all LPs ever created were available in the CD format so we could have this discussion about all music ever recorded but not such the case. THere are surely CDs that pale in comparison to their original recordings, CDs that far surpass and those that stand on equal grounds in no need of remastering because they were so deftly done in the first place. Too many examples to cite at the moment but many, many , many |
Posted By: geekfreak
Date Posted: September 08 2016 at 02:53
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like most of yous here I have a mix of vinyl`s/cd`s there are the pros and cons for both! but I prefer vinyl this maybe because through out my teenage years you only had Tapes, 8tracks or vinyl... ------------- Friedrich Nietzsche: "Without music, life would be a mistake." Music Is Live Two people are better off than one, for they can help each other succeed. Keep Calm And Listen To The Music < |
Posted By: uduwudu
Date Posted: September 08 2016 at 03:47
Actually there is the converse situation - as well as the above. My LITP is the Jap replica LP version - very nice - and complete - sounds ok to me as well. There is, as you said the CD with omissions - recommend to avoid this. Now there is the CD version that is complete. I saw the latest vinyl version - it's complete but with only a standard slip type (CD replica... ha!) cover. BTW the original CD of Songs From The Wood sounded like it was set in glue. The remaster is heaven. Tape dumped straight to CD is the bane of the CD experience. This is what is so often behind the cause of so much dissension, discussion and debate. Likely scenario - a 2 DVD, 2 CD Steven Wilson remaster of LITP. The the rest of the Carnegie Hall material can get issued. Caveat emptor as always. |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: September 08 2016 at 10:54
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The CD and redbook will not get any better than what it is now. Within the audio world, there is no work being done to develop a better sounding CD, remember it is 16bit/redbook format, it will never get any better. Where the focus is on is high resolution files like 24bit and higher, DSD and the new http://www.stereophile.com/content/spencer-chrislu-master-quality-authenticated#SP4UircE5L6IbOUx.97" rel="nofollow - MQA format . Click on the MQA link if you like for a basic explanation......At the end of the day with some of these new/other formats you are looking at re buying your catalog, that is my main problem and why I will stick to records. I have not heard any MQA files yet, not sure when I will. It has been a disappointment to me that digital audio has not been the end to all things music, there are so many issues still for the music listener and consumer with digital, let alone the CD itself.... Interesting if you are into audio gear...... -------------
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Posted By: Kespuzzuo
Date Posted: September 13 2016 at 20:54
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Makes me think. You see, every track on Tales from the topographic oceans is a side-long track. The first track was originally 28 minutes long, but they had to cut 6 minutes from it because of the limitations of the LP format. Kamasi Washington's debut album has a vinyl version. And Wikipedia says that the last side is 30 minutes long. Maybe it's one of those special vinyl record types created by Jack White, I don't know how did they manage to do that. Even the CD comes with limitations. The Flaming Lips released a track called "I found a star on the ground", and that song is 6 hours long. The song was inside a memory stick. The band also released another track called "7 Skies H3", which is 24 hours long, they decided to put that song on a web stream, but the stream is dead now (I think) That song also was inside flash drives encased in real human skulls. |
Posted By: bick
Date Posted: October 04 2016 at 07:02
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In the late 90s I did a 'remaster' my self using a program called Pristine Sounds. I had a really good audio card and a pretty nippy PC. The program allowed you to visually edit .wav files. You could erase clicks and pops with the mouse. Then you could do a low level noise reduction and finally Expand the dynamic range. The results were pretty good. So after spending hours 'remastering' my "Tales From Topographic Oceans", I was quite pleased. About a month later I bought "Tales From Topographic Oceans" Remastered for about £5 in a record store. The comparison was interesting......no different! My 'remaster' was as good as theirs. I now have a 24/192 HD copy of the album and its amazing! Good by 16BIT recordings. |