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Negoba 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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 Posted: April 27 2011 at 08:23 |
For once I must agree with Teo.
Power is power, politics is politics. The differences between the parties lies mainly in which set of people they exchange favors with. Occasionally this coincides with some ideology, but that shifts quite a bit. The most astute capital owners of course have their tendrils in both parties.
Few leaders back up from the system enough to look at the system as a whole and make decisions outside the microcosm of these exchanges. Those that actually have some perspective rarely have much ability to change the dynamic.
The only solution I see is a drastic simplification in the way we exchange resources.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: April 27 2011 at 07:44 |
 SaltyJon wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Triceratopsoil wrote:
I thought this was about Rod Stewart and Jeff beck |
I thought the same thing.
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As did I. 
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I thought it was about Dave Stewart and Beck Hansen....
...no I didn't, I thought Rod and Jeff too  and that's the Truth
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What?
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: April 27 2011 at 06:04 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Icarium
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
Status: Offline
Points: 34055
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Posted: April 27 2011 at 00:57 |
the centrist in Norway covers three partys the liberal Left party, the Centre party, the Christian Peoples party and the left parys is the Sosialist left party, the Labour party (though they are large enough to also ingulf some liberal views and from the 70s they have become more a hybreed Sosial democratic/liberal party) & Red party (comunist party the largest party whos not in the parlament) on the right we have the Conservative Right and the the Progressive pary...(which is a party full of goooooons )
real liberalism have both some roots in equality for all and equal rights to every one, but they also are rooted in nationalisme and national libaration movements, spessially in Norway during the campeins to get us out of the union with Sweden it was the Liberal Left (the oldest party in Norway) ho was the agitaters the ones hew held the flaming speaches, all the major writers/poets Henrik Wergeland, Bjoernstjerne Bjoernson, Arne Garborg, Henrik Ibsen was Liberal Leftist and fueld on the growing cultural nationalisme (one reason that political nationalsime never become so big in Norway during the libration period is becouse it was more cultural centerd, on cultural nationalisme revival not as a political tool) but to reinvoke a feeling that after 700 years of being subdued ether to Denmark or Sweden, which gave birth to some of Norways and Europs national romantic artist, becouse it was fueld by the intence nationalisme and liberationalistic enviroment in between 1850 to 1910.
Edited by aginor - April 27 2011 at 01:01
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: April 27 2011 at 00:50 |
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HP, I think "center" and its extremes have to be redefined. "Center" is what most people are, happy with government but not really wanting to become totally dependent on it; one extreme, let's call it "left" are those who want full government control of everything. The other real extreme are not conservatives or republicans or nothing: the other extreme is made of those who want zero, zilch, nada government, not even libertarians but anarchists. The old labels are wrong: they divide people by their allegiance to two exact ideas with different colorarions. Kind of the difference between bolsheviks and mensheviks in the Russian revolution, they're most the same. Anarchy is the real "other" extreme of politics.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: April 27 2011 at 00:45 |
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The democrat party outside of the US would be considered a center party or even right wing party because they supposedly defend the market, and that is quite extreme in the eyes of the left in other countries. To be considered left, a party really has to attack all kinds of privatization and defend statism (not that the democrats aren't doing this anyway). Extreme left is going on and proclaim Marx, Lenin and Guevara as your guiding lights, and holding Cuba as paradise on earth.
But this is the reality: both in the US and the rest of the world MOST parties are about the same. Some say they want more government, some want less, some want freer market, some want more regulation, but pretty much NONE is arguing in favor of the elimination or at least drastic reduction of government and the total or almost total liberation of the market. Politics is based on how to gain power. Power defines politics. A group/movement that wants to eliminate the source of all the indefinite power is looked upon with contempt by politicians because it's attacking the very essence of their game, their very blood supply. Beck, Hannity, Limbaugh, Stewart, Maher, they all want the same but with different names: a state that still rules and wages war and has absolutr monopoly of force. They just differ in details, in the ways they think will bring about prosperity and general well being (or their friends' and families', actually). For too long the actual real opposition to traditional parties has been denied its place: the opposition to pkwer, to government as a whole, an a living entity.
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: April 27 2011 at 00:35 |
manofmystery wrote:
What required a response? The percentages you pulled out of your ass? |
Of course I pulled them out of my ass, I was (roughly) quoting Jon Stewart to describe what he believes!
I think he said it at some point in connection with the Rally to Restore Circle-Jerking, but I don't remember what exact percentage he said, and I don't how he decided it, but that doesn't matter because we're not arguing about whether Jon Stewart is right.
| It doesn't matter what the labels are in other countries. |
Well, when we're talking about labels...
| A true "centrist" in America today is just someone unable to decide which of the two current extremes they'd rather bend over and take it from. I suppose that beats the rank and file members of each of the two extremes, though, who are more than happy to take it (and force others to take it) from their leaders while being downright outraged when the other side is in power and uses a slightly different lube. |
So why are you upset that I characterized him as centrist? That is what I am trying to get clarification on.
Edited by Henry Plainview - April 27 2011 at 00:38
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
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Posted: April 27 2011 at 00:12 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
manofmystery wrote:
I guess anything short of a Michael Moore dictatorship would be far too right wing for you. |
I don't know if it's a judgement call so much as pointing out the fact that in Europe/Canada/(probably South America? I am an ignorant American) the Democratic Party as it stands today would not be considered "left-wing" because they're not socialists, and they run and hide if anyone attempts to call them one.
And you didn't respond to my reply about Jon being a centrist.
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What required a response? The percentages you pulled out of your ass?
Your first paragraph here is also pointless. As I mentioned above, the buzzwords don't mean anything. It doesn't matter what the labels are in other countries.
A true "centrist" in America today is just someone unable to decide which of the two current extremes they'd rather bend over and take it from. I suppose that beats the rank and file members of each of the two extremes, though, who are more than happy to take it (and force others to take it) from their leaders while being downright outraged when the other side is in power and uses a slightly different lube.
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 Time always wins.
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: April 27 2011 at 00:05 |
Triceratopsoil wrote:
I'm... not going to try and explain the concept of a liberal party.
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I think they generally involve lots of weed and Grateful Dead music.
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
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Posted: April 26 2011 at 23:57 |
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I'm... not going to try and explain the concept of a liberal party.
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: April 26 2011 at 23:45 |
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I guess it depends on whether you define these terms according to the current climate, or historically speaking. I guess it is true that the American left is less overtly socialist (although I really don't think by that much) than the left is, say, Western Europe. By the standards of 19th century America, I think todays Republicans would seem anything but conservative. Since my favorite president is Grover Cleveland (who was a Democrat, btw) I tend to evaluate things in that context.
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: April 26 2011 at 23:28 |
manofmystery wrote:
I guess anything short of a Michael Moore dictatorship would be far too right wing for you. |
I don't know if it's a judgement call so much as pointing out the fact that in Europe/Canada/(probably South America? I am an ignorant American) the Democratic Party as it stands today would not be considered "left-wing" because they're not socialists, and they run and hide if anyone attempts to call them one. And you didn't respond to my reply about Jon being a centrist.
Edited by Henry Plainview - April 26 2011 at 23:29
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
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Posted: April 26 2011 at 22:53 |
Evolver wrote:
Triceratopsoil is correct. The Democratic party is so terrified of the Republicans, who have drifted as far right as they can without invoking Godwin's law, that they are afraid of even barely resembling a liberal. |
I think you got hold of a bad batch of crack or something.
I guess anything short of a Michael Moore dictatorship would be far too right wing for you. You know, the whole right vs. left argument is just a smoke screen anyway. Both parties are authoritarian parties and have veered away from the nation's founding principals. Your problem, along with those on the "right" and "left", is that you feel everyone needs to live by your standards. From where I stand, you might as well be Sean Hannity.
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Time always wins.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: April 26 2011 at 22:40 |
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^He probably wants real, self-declared socialists and communists...
And stop calling lefties "liberals"! Liberalism is actually the ideology of freedom and free market! How mixed-up terms are in the US. It was a nice play from the left to manage to be called "liberals", so that the right had nothing to do but to sound extreme....
Some people here can't differentiate a republican from a conservative from a libertarian... They are SO different. What Evolver calls "republicans who wage war on the middle class" are really neo-cons, corporatists and religious nuts, fascists in disguise with just a few clear economic ideas. But believe me Evolver, we want more freedom for you than you want for everybody...
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: April 26 2011 at 22:32 |
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So who resembles a liberal? You didn't answer my original question.
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Evolver
Special Collaborator
Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: The Idiocracy
Status: Offline
Points: 5482
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Posted: April 26 2011 at 22:07 |
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Triceratopsoil is correct. The Democratic party is so terrified of the Republicans, who have drifted as far right as they can without invoking Godwin's law, that they are afraid of even barely resembling a liberal.
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: April 26 2011 at 22:03 |
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Thank science for that. A lot of liberal policies are mind-numbingly dumb.
Edited by stonebeard - April 26 2011 at 22:08
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
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Posted: April 26 2011 at 21:32 |
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He's right, though, the American Democrat party is about as far left as Canada's conservative party.
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: April 26 2011 at 21:27 |
Evolver wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Definitely Glenn Beck. I have problems with him a lot, but he provides a much needed service of awakening people to the ways in which their freedoms are taken away. In many ways, I think Jon Stewart has become irrelevant. |
Like him or not, Stewart & Colbert's rally last year woul argue against their irrelevance.
Beck only parrots the right wing extemists distortions (mostly) about how the "left" (actually centrists) are taking your freedoms (sound like South Park shouting "They took our jobs!"), while ignoring the Republicans' war on the middle class. His loss of his show could be the start of his irrelevance (with any luck). |
If you're saying that all American liberals are "centrist" then what do you consider left?
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Evolver
Special Collaborator
Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: The Idiocracy
Status: Offline
Points: 5482
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Posted: April 26 2011 at 18:07 |
thellama73 wrote:
Definitely Glenn Beck. I have problems with him a lot, but he provides a much needed service of awakening people to the ways in which their freedoms are taken away. In many ways, I think Jon Stewart has become irrelevant. |
Like him or not, Stewart & Colbert's rally last year woul argue against their irrelevance.
Beck only parrots the right wing extemists distortions (mostly) about how the "left" (actually centrists) are taking your freedoms (sound like South Park shouting "They took our jobs!"), while ignoring the Republicans' war on the middle class. His loss of his show could be the start of his irrelevance (with any luck).
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Stewart or Beck?
