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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: October 29 2010 at 06:30 |
Evolver wrote:
Okay. We have now slammed Phil Collins for his remarks about prog. And rightly so.
Why is Fripp always let off the hook for all of his "dinosaurs" references back in the late seventies? |
Because Fripp still makes good music. ![LOL LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
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Evolver
Special Collaborator
Crossover & JR/F/Canterbury Teams
Joined: October 22 2005
Location: The Idiocracy
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Points: 5482
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Posted: October 29 2010 at 06:26 |
Okay. We have now slammed Phil Collins for his remarks about prog. And rightly so.
Why is Fripp always let off the hook for all of his "dinosaurs" references back in the late seventies?
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Trust me. I know what I'm doing.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: October 29 2010 at 04:17 |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: October 28 2010 at 21:17 |
^^^^^
I think that is probably closer to the truth. They did carry on with prog for two years after Gabriel left and Collins has some songwriting credits on the two albums with Hackett (before ATTWT) so he was in all probability attached to the music they were making at the time but found it more and more difficult to mount the effort to make it, faced with dwindling returns for prog as such. I have also read Rutherford saying in the notorious Annotated Lamb Lies...article that they were in great touch at the time of making that album and the music just flowed. Banks and Rutherford regard Lamb as a commercial failure, so it is possible that the sum total of the efforts they put into it, Gabriel's departure, lack of commercial success and getting branded as pretentious affected them. In my personal experience too, Genesis is the hardest of the big five bands to get people from outside prog circles to understand because they are only too inclined to dismiss Genesis's prog albums as precious, sissy pop (the irony!) and don't really perceive its brilliance, not right away at any rate. People generally regard prog as weird or strange music and Genesis seem to dampen those misplaced expectations.
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TODDLER
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Posted: October 28 2010 at 11:16 |
He has often stated in the past that punk rockers would damn the early music of Genesis rambling on about how bands of this nature are a bunch of old farts. He claimed that he was personally agreeable when they made their references to Pink Floyd but felt deeply about the fact that Genesis had something special to offer in those days. Phil Collins would sometimes himself make negative and cruel thrusts towards the early prog days of Genesis. Much in the way that Rutherford did. "Oh! we couldn't wait until it was over" or "Thank God those days are gone". It sounds like a love/hate relationship between Collins and prog as when people cut on the early Genesis, he starts defending it! He probably hated the turmoil and struggle in the business during those prog days as it was much easier to rack in astronomical amounts of profit with the 80's Genesis.
I feel sorry for him if he is tormented over the reality of what he was in the Brand X and early Genesis days when compared to his current media activity over the last few decades. Singing or writing a song for the TARZAN movie was the old adult musician singer songwriter approach to children's workshops. It's almost as if you could imagine him on Sesame Street. It's healthy do do this but, not if deep down inside you are avoiding your past with an attitude. His participation in a Buddy Rich tribute was a great idea for him to stretch out as a player again. He might miss the extreme progressiveness of his career in the sense that his pop indulgence was to the opposite extreme. Now he is getting older and he is looking back you see? However I did not understand the attitude he presented in Progression Magazine in 2004 when he was interviewed by Nick Tate. He responded at one point by saying Well, the question is how does Peter Gabriel feel about performing "Invisible Touch"? In otherwords, don't worry about how I, Tony and Mike feel about returning to our prog roots because we have no intentions of bending. They must have had a kind of bond in the business sense and their past issues with the early Genesis were still bitter to a great degree. That was the impression I got. But, he is not all one sided and somewhere inside he may feel some kind of regret for turning his back on it. That vibe seems to surface when he defends the early days. Perhaps he is struggling with that reality?
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
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Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
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Posted: October 28 2010 at 09:18 |
sigod wrote:
Are you sure?
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OK some musicians do. ![LOL LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
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sigod
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 17 2004
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 2779
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Posted: October 28 2010 at 09:13 |
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I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision.
- Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill
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Snow Dog
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Posted: October 28 2010 at 07:20 |
I don't care what he says,people can change their opinions, even Phil is allowed too. I just feel so sorry for the guy having to strap his sticks to his hands so he can play. No musician deserves this fate.
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
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Points: 7971
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Posted: October 28 2010 at 07:05 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
CCVP wrote:
Nobody ever liked Genesis. They have ever had poor album sales untill Selling England, which sold about 100k in the UK, being that the only place with significant album sales by that band. They took 8/9 years to have their breakthough album and from it they went downhill, so I guess he's right.
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Seems you don't know about Italy and Belgium,Trespass was N° 1 in Belgium, Nursery Cryme was N N° 4 in Italy and Foxtrot was N° 1 in Italy.
So UK was not the only place with significant sales in the world.
Iván
BTW: Genesis Live (released before SEBTP) was in the charts of UK, keeping N° 9 for 10 weeks |
Yes, I knew that Iván, but for some reason selling 100k copies in the UK surpassed all of their album sales combined at the time. Same with Trick of the Tail selling 500k in the US. Hmm, for some reason I think the US and the UK album sales are more significant than all the countries you pointed. People simply buy more records there, period.
Hell, Dream Theater charted amongst the 10 bes selling artists in many many countries of the world when Black Clouds was releasd and they weren't even able to sell 1m albums world wide. Actually, I domn't even think they sold 500k, but anyway, Genesis simply could not sell albums during their prime man, deal with it. Very few bands can, there is no problem with it.
JLocke wrote:
^ Hell, I still don't like Genesis nearly as much as the other bands that were around at the time. If you want an example of a prog act that was actually really well-known while they were still being innovative, look no further than Yes, ''The people's band''. |
Same with me, their so-called "acclaimed" prog releases are'nt my cup of tea also, though i really really LOVE TResspass and Nursery Crime. ELP also sold millions upon millions back in the day (even more than Yes I think), both rightfully.
Edited by CCVP - October 28 2010 at 07:07
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: October 28 2010 at 06:35 |
I accept the possibility that in hindsight he may have come around and changed his attitude to the old Genesis stuff, but in an interview for a Genesis retrospective, back when they were in their pop phase, all of the notorious three were very dismissive to the old fans. I can kind of understand it because a lot of old fans were dismissive of the newer Genesis stuff. I took an interest in the band right after Hackett left and stayed with them for a while, getting their new albums, but eventually got tired of them. I never got the Mama album and Invisible Touch would be last one I would get when it first came out. To date I've only replaced my vinyls up to and including Abacab. I did try Calling All Stations, but only because the CDs are available really cheap.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: October 28 2010 at 01:03 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
CCVP wrote:
Nobody ever liked Genesis. They have ever had poor album sales untill Selling England, which sold about 100k in the UK, being that the only place with significant album sales by that band. They took 8/9 years to have their breakthough album and from it they went downhill, so I guess he's right.
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Seems you don't know about Italy and Belgium,Trespass was N° 1 in Belgium, Nursery Cryme was N N° 4 in Italy and Foxtrot was N° 1 in Italy.
So UK was not the only place with significant sales in the world.
Iván
BTW: Genesis Live (released before SEBTP) was in the charts of UK, keeping N° 9 for 10 weeks |
I knew through PA that Genesis were more popular in Italy than in UK but never knew how much popular were they. Thanks for the info! Trespass being Nº1 in a country makes me smile.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
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Posted: October 28 2010 at 00:58 |
darksideof wrote:
is it true all this stuff you guys are writing about Phill? I am a pretty huge Genesis fan since I was 14 Years. I had never read numerous and I even have few Genesis Documentary on videos Have a Genesis boigraphy and I still haven''t ready anything Phil said bashing early Genesis prog albums. Totally the opossite.can you guys post the link of these interviews? ohh the only think I remember he said was that they were tired of playing long songs and old songs. That The band needed to change their direction. that all! |
Most of this interviews are very old and no longer available, for example the first Genesis and Phil Collins sites has been transformed and several interviews vanished.
Only found one quotes:
You put Genesis over there in a corner with Yes, ELP, Moody Blues and the Floyd (Pink Floyd) because that`s the period we happened to come up in. I don`t like any of those groups - so it angers me and frustrates me when we get compared to them.
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I believe you will find several good opinions about Yes after 2000.
But if you want to listen some of his most acid perception about Genesis and Prog, you can get "GENESIS A HISTORY" DVD...There he speaks a lot of harsh things about Prog and old Genesis.
Iván
BTW: I can correct myself when I found something I was wrong, seems that Phil always had a soft spot for Supper's Ready and specially for Apocalypse in 9/8, but he has said some very hard things.
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darksideof
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 22 2007
Location: Newark N.J.
Status: Offline
Points: 2318
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Posted: October 27 2010 at 21:51 |
is it true all this stuff you guys are writing about Phill? I am a pretty huge Genesis fan since I was 14 Years. I had never read numerous and I even have few Genesis Documentary on videos Have a Genesis boigraphy and I still haven''t ready anything Phil said bashing early Genesis prog albums. Totally the opossite. can you guys post the link of these interviews? ohh the only think I remember he said was that they were tired of playing long songs and old songs. That The band needed to change their direction. that all!
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http://darksideofcollages.blogspot.com/
http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Darksideof-Collages/
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502
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Posted: October 27 2010 at 21:40 |
Indifferent to what Phil says, he's the best, Of course he was better as a solo artist, but he doesn't deny his participation in Genesis and even has positive remarks on it. So God bless Phill.
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: October 27 2010 at 21:33 |
CCVP wrote:
Nobody ever liked Genesis. They have ever had poor album sales untill Selling England, which sold about 100k in the UK, being that the only place with significant album sales by that band. They took 8/9 years to have their breakthough album and from it they went downhill, so I guess he's right.
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Seems you don't know about Italy and Belgium,Trespass was N° 1 in Belgium, Nursery Cryme was N N° 4 in Italy and Foxtrot was N° 1 in Italy.
So UK was not the only place with significant sales in the world.
Iván
BTW: Genesis Live (released before SEBTP) was in the charts of UK, keeping N° 9 for 10 weeks
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Posted: October 27 2010 at 21:22 |
lazland wrote:
Oh well, more Phil bashing.
Lest we forget, he was the drummer in one of the all time (some say ALL TIME) greatest prog bands of all time, and was, latterly, the singer and a writer. In other words, an integral part of the band, not a bit part player.
Why the hell wouldn't he be proud of this song and of his band?
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It's not bashing, is remembering the history.
He said that he never understood The Lamb (when his pop stuff was at the peak) and years later when his pop Genesis was dead he said The Lamb was his favorite album.
He said in Genesis a History that he was happy when Punk came, shake the tree and all the bands fell like bad apples (SIC), then years later he says he's proud of what they did on the early days.
He auditioned for Yes and wasn't accepted (Yes lost), then he said clearly that he never liked Yes and now says that Yes musicians are virtuoso.
Bashing would be insulting him, remembering what he said and how critic he was about Prog and now he wants to gain old fans again.
Iván
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darksideof
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 22 2007
Location: Newark N.J.
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Points: 2318
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Posted: October 27 2010 at 21:02 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
After all he said in the 80's and 90's, I don't believe him.
His contradictions already posted of past threads are legendary.
Iván |
well he isn't perfect! ![Embarrassed Embarrassed](smileys/smiley9.gif)
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http://darksideofcollages.blogspot.com/
http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Darksideof-Collages/
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sigod
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 17 2004
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 2779
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Posted: October 27 2010 at 17:14 |
Fine and dandy mate. Still fighting the good fight I see.
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I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision.
- Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill
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Icarium
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Posted: October 27 2010 at 17:02 |
He's right, in the context of the modern music media, surely? These days, you need to be a bunch of goons paradying a pile of crap on Simon Cowell's shows, mumble obscenities into a mic, or pretend you're hard and indy in order to get any publicity or mass record sales. You wouldn't get that by copying Genesis, I'm afraid. That's why a lot of modern prog is called "cult" by the media. [/QUOTE]
well that depends on which part /era of Genesis you are copying ![Wink Wink](https://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif) the 80s new wave heaven or the 70s prog rock heaven, and many of the songs on the Lamb are pretty meldodic and catchy (like It, the Carpet Crawlers, Lilywhite Lilith, Antway, Cuckoo cocoon) I am pretty sure many of those songs have influenced modern pop music.
the melody of It is very infectious melodie
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: October 27 2010 at 16:56 |
^ Hell, I still don't like Genesis nearly as much as the other bands that were around at the time. If you want an example of a prog act that was actually really well-known while they were still being innovative, look no further than Yes, ''The people's band''.
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