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jammun 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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 Posted: February 22 2010 at 19:44 |
Why is it that we creep? 
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: February 22 2010 at 19:34 |
 jammun wrote:
Don't argue with me I'm just stating the facts. |
I'm merely contradicting you. 
Edited by Slartibartfast - February 22 2010 at 19:56
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: February 22 2010 at 19:32 |
Don't argue with me I'm just stating the facts.
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: February 22 2010 at 19:20 |
jammun wrote:
Well here's my screed.
It's a given that LTIA is probably the best album ever made. Don't argue with me. Wrong  Second is probably Galactic Zoo Dossier. Don't argue with me. Wrong
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By the way, I am not arguing with you...
Edited by Slartibartfast - February 22 2010 at 19:34
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: February 22 2010 at 19:15 |
Sometimes people's taste change in music, but they may be long time visitors to this forum so they still come here to discuss music because there is very clearly a section marked for non-prog music and for non-musical topics so obviously the only function of the forum is not to discuss prog.
Some people may be irritated by the attitude many on the forum have pertaining to prog music so animosities may arise that make the person seem anti-prog when really they're just trying to express that non-progressive music is not to be seen as inferior.
Plus it's fun to bash prog because the average prog fan is so uptight and desperately tries to validate his opinions by adding some objective metric to music that doesn't exist. I mean this is the easiest site in the world to troll because the concepts of hyperbole and sarcasm seem very foreign to many who post here.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
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Posted: February 22 2010 at 19:05 |
Well here's my screed.
It's a given that LTIA is probably the best album ever made. Don't argue with me. Second is probably Galactic Zoo Dossier. Don't argue with me. Those are the standard that any album must meet. That said, I am a sucker for 99 Luftballoons and a thousand other crappy pop songs. I would never denigrate prog...except maybe or especially Genesis and Dream Theater. But we all have varied musical loves...many of which, whether prog or not, bring us to our knees and make us weep with either joy or sadness. Why else would we even frequent this site? I'm still trying to get over that YouTube of Knopfer's Brothers In Arms that someone posted. I played it for my daughter last night and am still recovering. I'm still trying to get over Easy Money, thirty years later.
A guy I used to work with just died of brain cancer. Thirty five years old. I've already outlived him by 20 years, and yet he left two young daughters. I'm rambling, I told you this was a screed. At these times I'm not listening to 99 Luftballoons. I'm listening to Echoes, or Starless, or some other epic piece that confirms and validates our lives. In a more upbeat time, well I'll be listening to Double Shot of My Baby's Love.
Think of the Bell Curve. Imagine that bottom or top nth percentile (don't know if we're in the top or bottom, I like to think the top). I'd say anyone who posts anything here, other than the odd troll, does actually care about music. But some of us, well music is a bit more. We care so much that at times it actually hurts and grinds at the soul. I'm an old fart. I grew up listening to well-crafted music. AllMusic has a nice thing on 1965 on their home page now. I was 'round 12 years old in '65, and I look at the songs, and in many cases listen to them once again, and am stunned at how good I had it as a kid.
So yeah, I may lob the odd grenade at ELP or Yes, or reject this or that band, but I care. I don't off the top of my head remember, but there was a character in Pynchon's V, who said it all..."Keep cool, but care."
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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Posted: February 22 2010 at 13:47 |
Substance= positioning oneself in a submersible 
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: February 22 2010 at 13:06 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
I wasn't aware the two were in opposition to each other. And how exactly does one define "substance"? |
Like, you know, like... (and stuff)
Edited by Slartibartfast - February 22 2010 at 13:07
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13699
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Posted: February 22 2010 at 12:49 |
Dean wrote:
TODDLER wrote:
Man Overboard wrote:
Tony R wrote:
I think most Prog lacks attitude and genuine aggression because it tends towards the abstract. I can see why people might get tired with that and move on. As we see with John Lydon (Rotten) some people can like complex music but express themselves better through the visceral beats of simple rock and roll. Prog isn't the be all and end all, far from it, but at a Prog Rock site it is the prime focus and shared experience. If people feel the need to knock that then they should move on.
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Well put. |
But how can it be the prime focus and shared experience with everyone anyway? There is too much commercial prog on this site. Especially the late 70's and 80's mainstream prog which is about a hundred degree angle in the opposite direction of the mainstream prog of the mid 70's which even at that time the art was dead. What about 90125 BY yES? Do you actually consider that a prog album? It contains radio hits just like Duke did. Is this true prog or artificial top 40 prog? |
Why should it matter? If two or more people on this forum can find something they like and if there are hundreds of such connections then it becomes the prime focus and the experience is shared. Surely that is enough... we don't all have to like the same thing as long as we all like something.
 ... yeah, that makes sense.  |
Dean is right - it doesn't matter in any way shape or form, and the constant debate about whether 90125 or Duke are prog or not is simply very wearisome. I personally love both albums, and hear elements of prog in both, whilst accepting that neither can realistically be accepted as akin to the "classic" 70's symphonic albums. The difference is that I don't beat myself up about the comparisons. I simply enjoy the two albums which have given me great pleasure over the years, and that, to me, is the only important factor.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: February 22 2010 at 12:12 |
TODDLER wrote:
Man Overboard wrote:
Tony R wrote:
I think most Prog lacks attitude and genuine aggression because it tends towards the abstract. I can see why people might get tired with that and move on. As we see with John Lydon (Rotten) some people can like complex music but express themselves better through the visceral beats of simple rock and roll. Prog isn't the be all and end all, far from it, but at a Prog Rock site it is the prime focus and shared experience. If people feel the need to knock that then they should move on.
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Well put. |
But how can it be the prime focus and shared experience with everyone anyway? There is too much commercial prog on this site. Especially the late 70's and 80's mainstream prog which is about a hundred degree angle in the opposite direction of the mainstream prog of the mid 70's which even at that time the art was dead. What about 90125 BY yES? Do you actually consider that a prog album? It contains radio hits just like Duke did. Is this true prog or artificial top 40 prog? |
Why should it matter? If two or more people on this forum can find something they like and if there are hundreds of such connections then it becomes the prime focus and the experience is shared. Surely that is enough... we don't all have to like the same thing as long as we all like something.
... yeah, that makes sense.
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What?
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: August 28 2009
Location: Vineland, N.J.
Status: Offline
Points: 3126
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Posted: February 22 2010 at 11:13 |
Man Overboard wrote:
Tony R wrote:
I think most Prog lacks attitude and genuine aggression because it tends towards the abstract. I can see why people might get tired with that and move on. As we see with John Lydon (Rotten) some people can like complex music but express themselves better through the visceral beats of simple rock and roll. Prog isn't the be all and end all, far from it, but at a Prog Rock site it is the prime focus and shared experience. If people feel the need to knock that then they should move on.
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Well put. |
But how can it be the prime focus and shared experience with everyone anyway? There is too much commercial prog on this site. Especially the late 70's and 80's mainstream prog which is about a hundred degree angle in the opposite direction of the mainstream prog of the mid 70's which even at that time the art was dead. What about 90125 BY yES? Do you actually consider that a prog album? It contains radio hits just like Duke did. Is this true prog or artificial top 40 prog?
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: February 22 2010 at 05:54 |
Tony R wrote:
I think most Prog lacks attitude and genuine aggression because it tends towards the abstract. I can see why people might get tired with that and move on. As we see with John Lydon (Rotten) some people can like complex music but express themselves better through the visceral beats of simple rock and roll. Prog isn't the be all and end all, far from it, but at a Prog Rock site it is the prime focus and shared experience. If people feel the need to knock that then they should move on.
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Thanks, Tony, you summed up the meaning of my initial post in the best possible way  . And please note one thing: I know very well that some people come here because they like hanging around with other people they've met over the years, even if the music is not that relevant to them anymore. However, they don't necessarily feel the need to knock prog, or constantly state that something else is much better. On a personal level, my own take is that, thanks to this site, I've realized that 'prog' is a much broader phenomenon than the bands I grew up with in the Seventies, and covers such vastly different kinds of music that it is unlikely to ever bore me.
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Man Overboard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 07 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Status: Offline
Points: 3830
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Posted: February 22 2010 at 04:37 |
Tony R wrote:
I think most Prog lacks attitude and genuine aggression because it tends towards the abstract. I can see why people might get tired with that and move on. As we see with John Lydon (Rotten) some people can like complex music but express themselves better through the visceral beats of simple rock and roll. Prog isn't the be all and end all, far from it, but at a Prog Rock site it is the prime focus and shared experience. If people feel the need to knock that then they should move on.
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Well put.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: February 22 2010 at 04:16 |
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I think most Prog lacks attitude and genuine aggression because it tends towards the abstract. I can see why people might get tired with that and move on. As we see with John Lydon (Rotten) some people can like complex music but express themselves better through the visceral beats of simple rock and roll. Prog isn't the be all and end all, far from it, but at a Prog Rock site it is the prime focus and shared experience. If people feel the need to knock that then they should move on.
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mystic fred
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 13 2006
Location: Londinium
Status: Offline
Points: 4252
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Posted: February 22 2010 at 04:10 |
a very knowledgeable Troll to boot
Stonie you're not as bad as the resident Troll on my Vinyl forum - Birdy he's called, a cantankerous old Hill Billy, he loves to upset and contradict everyone, makes ridiculously silly threads and is a self-appointed master of Prog - I have a lot of fun with him.. 
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 Prog Archives Tour Van 
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11420
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Posted: February 22 2010 at 02:53 |
Raff wrote:
First of all, I apologize if this thread sounds in any way confrontational, because it is not meant to be. However, I cannot deny that in the past few months I have noticed a curious phenomenon spreading around the site - people who seize every opportunity to put down prog, to stress how much they like to listen to other kinds of music (as if the rest of us didn't), or how boring prog is, and so on. And I am not talking about occasional visitors, but people who have been around for quite a long time.
While in a way this could be considered as the inevitable consequence of the (equally, if not more) irritating attitude of many members, expressed in the many "woe is me - everyone hates Prog!" threads that ever so often rear their ugly heads , I have to wonder at why someone who is not particularly interested in prog keeps on visiting a prog forum. Possibly to make us see the error of our ways? Useless, at least in my case, because I am a very open-minded person, and listen to many different genres of music - and then, I know all too well how much really bad prog there is around (I have shelves full of CDs I wish I had never heard before, though at least I didn't have to pay for them ). Or is it a form of masochism, or rather love turning to hatred?
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I think I know why this irritates you Raff: They stoop to conquer
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seventhsojourn
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 11 2009
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 4006
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Posted: February 22 2010 at 02:43 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
You are correct that some people say things like that, but in the classical and jazz polls recently the vast majority of people voted that they love prog far more than either. I think as more and more people here have been listening to prog for longer periods of time, they are more naturally going to grow bored of it and prefer something else, especially over the big 5. That's the reason I would absolutely say that I like jazz and classical more than prog, and I imagine that's the case for anybody who has been around forever. I remember a long time ago I saw threefates say that she has listened to BSS at least once a week since it came out, and that is not something most people can do!
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Then the person either loses interest in music or discovers that there's more to music than innovation ... like substance and emotion.
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I wasn't aware the two were in opposition to each other. And how exactly does one define "substance"? |
I'm not sure if I've taken your meaning correctly here, but I've been listening to prog for 40 years and have never grown bored with it. Obviously I've been on the planet longer than probably the majority of PA members, which has given me more time to be exposed to more music. That doesn't mean I've necessarily heard more than all you young 'uns, but I identify with a lot of different types of music as milestones in my life. I don't think I've listened to Foxtrot in, probably, the past 20 years... but I don't need to 'cos I can ''listen'' to it in my head any time.
On a more general note... Between the years 1977-1983 i was involved in the burgeoning Punk/New Wave/ Indie/Post-Punk/ whatever music scene in Glasgow . I played in a couple of bands that went on to become quite influential and famous (they shall of course remain nameless here). At the time I chose to pursue a proper career. Somebody shoot me! Anyway, at that time if you admited to liking prog people would laugh in your face. And if you said you liked The Moody Blues  . Maybe this is partly why anything to do with ''punk'' is so controversial here. However I hope that same kind of intolerance doesn't hold sway here at PA. I'm a mature adult now and I would never lose sleep over any personal embarassment. However I obviously haven't fully gotten over those early ridicules, as I still feel the need to apologise for liking Elton John.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: February 22 2010 at 01:53 |
stonebeard wrote:
I've always thought prog sucked. I'm an incredibly long-term and patient troll here. |
A troll doesn't "think"... a troll "knows"
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What?
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: February 22 2010 at 01:27 |
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I've always thought prog sucked. I'm an incredibly long-term and patient troll here.
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 24 2007
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 25210
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Posted: February 22 2010 at 00:58 |
Yeah sorry Mike, but I find the idea of innovation and emotion to be opposing forces to be a ridiculous concept too. I don't think ANYONE would listen to music just because it's "innovative". Frank Zappa may have been quite an innovative artist but I find half of the music he composed to be utterly boring. On the other hand, I find Kayo Dot's Choirs of the Eye album, which was quite innovative for it's time, to be incredibly engaging and it has NOTHING to do with its inherent innovation and all to do with the fact that well......I just like it
Edited by Petrovsk Mizinski - February 22 2010 at 00:59
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