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Easy Money View Drop Down
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Points: 10672 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2010 at 13:12
I like post-punk, but I think it's obvious that the site will not be adding post-punk as a subgenre anytime soon.

Post-punk bands that are progressive will be added to existing subgenres. I was listening to Devo's first album the other day, amazing record, very progressive. I think people should try to present a strong case with musical examples etc for XTC and Pere Ubu, I think those bands might have a shot.

Meanwhile bands like Massacre and Material are already here. Oh yeah, and Robert Fripp's Leaugue of Gentlemen, they used to play the Mudd Clubb, ha ha ha.

Edited by Easy Money - February 21 2010 at 13:18
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Points: 314 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2010 at 12:09
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2010 at 10:49
Somebody lock this thread before the debates get started all over again. Please. 
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Points: 130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2010 at 08:55
I see no link between over blown twiddling and experimentation. Post punk was the direct descendent of punk, which kicked down the doors for young musicians to break rules. Post punk and 'Prog' couldn't be more different.
~Jump you f**ker jump~
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 17:07

Already there is disagreement over who or what Post Punk is and this is before the idea has even begun to look half serious. The definitions listed on Guts Of Darkness (I think that's a positively dreadful name btw - and I'm an ex-Goth) are not universally accepted or recognised and many of them are unheard of outside France.

I have said before on this forum that many of the musicians that formed Post Punk bands in the 1980s would have been in Prog Bands if the music climate had not changed in 1976 ... but it did change and they did not form Prog bands. Some of those musicians later went on to form more Progressive oriented bands, and some of those Post-Punk bands were continuing the Art Rock/Krautrock/Electronic/RIO tradition - we recognise who those bands were and have included them into existing subs here - creating a specific Post Punk category to include a whole wave of bands that have no connection to any existing Prog subgenres is meaningless.
 
No, this really is not going to work at all. Sorry Lucas, but I cannot support this idea.
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Points: 8138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 14:51
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

I like Devo, but I can think of nothing about their music that would warrant them a progressive rock label.
Not the most exeprimental post-punk band, somewhere between post-punk and new wave.

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

That being said, I think an argument could be made for the inclusion of Pere Ubu, but the thread is about adding a new category (post-punk) not about adding individual bands.
 
post-punk/no wave cf http://www.gutsofdarkness.com/god/objet.php?objet=5744
 
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Furthermore, to deny that certain bands (joy division, Siouxie, etc.) are post-punk is absurd.
 
somepost-punk influence but belong to the gothic wave (see below).
 
 
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Even Lucas admits that coldwave(a term I've never heard before this thread) is a sub-genre of post-punk.
No, I never said that. Once more I will give the example of the MOST eclectic website I ever saw : "guts of darkness". Here is a list of the musical genres reviewed http://www.gutsofdarkness.com/god/styles.php
 
Let's focus on punk and gothic. 
 
Punk is subdivided as follows (the figures in brackets are the number of albums reviewed) :
punk (362)
crust (21)
garage (41)
horror punk (16)
no wave (15)
post punk (80)
psychobilly (33)

The following band are tagged "post-punk" :

- This Heat : http://www.gutsofdarkness.com/god/objet.php?objet=12491 well post-punk/RIO/avant-rock
- A certain ratio : http://www.gutsofdarkness.com/god/objet.php?objet=11048 well post-punk/funk
 
No wave, steming from post-punk, is another half prog-half punk related style with bands like Massacre, Bill Laswell, Material, Etron Fou Leloublan (RIO/no wave), James Chance and the Cotortions, Glenn Branca, DNA (with Arto Lindsey, later in The Lounge Lizards)...
 
Then gothic :
gothique (1584)
batcave (106)
cold wave (227)
dark wave (110)
death rock (180)
gothic rock (227)
post punk goth (238)

The following bands belong to the gothic wave :

- joy division, http://www.gutsofdarkness.com/god/objet.php?objet=1967 well cold-wave + post-punk
- siouxsie and the banshees http://www.gutsofdarkness.com/god/objet.php?objet=3466 post-punk goth
 
Talking Heads are tagged "new wave".
 
 
 
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 12:49
^ several Off Topic posts hidden - the air's been cleared, can we move on please.
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Points: 17184 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 12:34
*That* was offensive??  Wow.  I stand by my central tenet that we do fine here and don't need to feel inferior to other sites, though my comments were general, not aimed at anyone. 
 
I'll go back to my room nowLOL
 
 
Important Edit......missed the question marks after the first three words, previously.  I was questioning how my post was offenseive, not stating that someone elses was.  Again, my post below was not some indictment of either Raff or Olav or Progressor, it was a general statement about my feelings that THIS site is doing a good job. 


Edited by Finnforest - February 19 2010 at 14:42
...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 12:29
^ Nobody has said or implied that Raff.
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 12:26
Sorry, guys, but I don't like the implications of some of the things said in the above posts. If you believe the likes of me and Olav are showing off because we get promos for free from other sites, well, you're off base. If all we wanted to do was show off, we would not care to see some of those artists we review added to PA. Finding links and samples, as well as writing bios and adding albums, is a lot of work, and I can tell you that the only reason I do that (and Olav as well - we've talked about it very often) is because we care for this site.

Personally, I have learned a lot about music since I started reviewing for Progressor, and that activity has broadened my horizons a lot. This is something I want to share with the people here, and not to use as a way to state, 'look, I know more than you do'. This is just not me - and, if you think so, it means you don't know anything about the person I am.

 As a final remark, I do not think for a second that the other sites are ' wonderful', and could not care less about engaging into a competition with them. Most of them work very differently (i.e. they are based on news and reviews, while ours is a database), and I believe this is a good thing. However, as we don't exist in a void, I don't see why we should not consider what they do. I don't really believe it was necessary to be offensive in order to make a point.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 12:10
^ Presactly Approve
 
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Points: 17184 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 12:08
It should also be pointed out that we are not always *behind* the other sites with band additions.  Sometimes we are ahead of them.  I have added bands to PA which you will NOT find on the other wonderful prog sites, or who were not there when I added them to this site. 
 
As for those who beat us to the punch with certain groups, we'll get there eventually.  Since many of us have to buy all or most of the CDs we use for our work here, we don't have the luxury of having everything the moment it is released. 
...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 12:00
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:



Now I think many will not agree with this.
I can't bring up the exact posts immediately, but I've read on multiple occasions (in the new bands thread) that the fact whether other prog sites include a certain artist or not, is surely a decisive factor to add them here as well (or not).
Also, the point you make sounds like saying: 'I will spell the word 'progresive' with one 's' because that's how I feel it should be spelled and I don't care how others spell it.


It definitely is for controversial additions (Prog-Related or not). I know this as a fact, and any of the Admin Team will be able to confirm it. There is another factor too: prog fans visit many sites to read reviews or find other information, and will see bands or artists included there that here are not. This is how many members' suggestions occur. Like it or not, we don't exist in a void. We can choose to be different, but it's not necessarily a win-win situation.

On that, I do agree with you, Raff, and I'm not saying it's not worth considering, but you must realize the eyebrows and concerns decisions like this raise among many people here (not the least among them, some of our top contributors). I just want to make sure we aren't pushing for this simply because we think we need to 'keep up' with the competeting sites.
The yard-stick of a band being listed on other Prog sites is not a decisive factor for adding a band in itself. Nor is not being listed on other sites a justification for not adding a band here. It is simply an indicator of what the rest of the prog community on the Internet thinks - it would be remiss (and a little arogant) of us not to look at what other sites are doing, but it does not mean we have to follow (or lead).
 
Actually, I don't have time to visit other sites, I rely on other people to bring such things to my attention should they deem I need to know, this site keeps me busy enough. Though having seen The Sweet and Sting listed on one of those sites I do realise I could use that excuse to add just about any band I can think of if that was the only criteria of adding bands. Fortunately it is not.
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:41
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:



Now I think many will not agree with this.
I can't bring up the exact posts immediately, but I've read on multiple occasions (in the new bands thread) that the fact whether other prog sites include a certain artist or not, is surely a decisive factor to add them here as well (or not).
Also, the point you make sounds like saying: 'I will spell the word 'progresive' with one 's' because that's how I feel it should be spelled and I don't care how others spell it.


It definitely is for controversial additions (Prog-Related or not). I know this as a fact, and any of the Admin Team will be able to confirm it. There is another factor too: prog fans visit many sites to read reviews or find other information, and will see bands or artists included there that here are not. This is how many members' suggestions occur. Like it or not, we don't exist in a void. We can choose to be different, but it's not necessarily a win-win situation.

On that, I do agree with you, Raff, and I'm not saying it's not worth considering, but you must realize the eyebrows and concerns decisions like this raise among many people here (not the least among them, some of our top contributors). I just want to make sure we aren't pushing for this simply because we think we need to 'keep up' with the competeting sites.
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:38
Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:



Now I think many will not agree with this.
I can't bring up the exact posts immediately, but I've read on multiple occasions (in the new bands thread) that the fact whether other prog sites include a certain artist or not, is surely a decisive factor to add them here as well (or not).
Also, the point you make sounds like saying: 'I will spell the word 'progresive' with one 's' because that's how I feel it should be spelled and I don't care how others spell it.


It definitely is for controversial additions (Prog-Related or not). I know this as a fact, and any of the Admin Team will be able to confirm it. There is another factor too: prog fans visit many sites to read reviews or find other information, and will see bands or artists included there that here are not. This is how many members' suggestions occur. Like it or not, we don't exist in a void. We can choose to be different, but it's not necessarily a win-win situation.
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:32
Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:

 
Now I think many will not agree with this. 

So what?


I can't bring up the exact posts immediately, but I've read on multiple occasions (in the new bands thread) that the fact whether other prog sites include a certain artist or not, is surely a decisive factor to add them here as well (or not).

Using other prog resources as guides for adding a certain artist from time to time, and adding an entirely new sub-genre simply because somebody else decides to are two very different things, my friend.


Also, the point you make sounds like saying: 'I will spell the word 'progresive' with one 's' because that's how I feel it should be spelled and I don't care how others spell it.

No it doesn't. What I'm saying is that we should make sure our decisions make the most sense for us before we do anything as monumental as adding a completely new sub-genre to the site. If you honestly can't grasp that, I don't know what to tell you. But I am NOT simply being stubborn about this for no good reason.





Edited by JLocke - February 19 2010 at 10:38
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Points: 4521 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:30
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:




My point was simple: what happens on some other site has nothing to do with PA. So what if you collaborate elsewhere? I'm glad you do, and I'm sure you do a good job, but what does that have to do with anything? Just because some other site decides to become more all-inclusive has no bearing whether PA should or not. I should think that's an obvious point, but you keep citing other sites as if they should dictate what we do here, so I decided to state the obvious. I'm sorry if you misunderstood and took it personally, but I never showed any aggression towards you at all. 


Now I think many will not agree with this.
I can't bring up the exact posts immediately, but I've read on multiple occasions (in the new bands thread) that the fact whether other prog sites include a certain artist or not, is surely a decisive factor to add them here as well (or not).
Also, the point you make sounds like saying: 'I will spell the word 'progresive' with one 's' because that's how I feel it should be spelled and I don't care how others spell it.
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:20
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:


By the way, did anyone care to look at All Music. Check the Experimental Rock section

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:4437




Karl, you can bring up all the examples you want (as I have), but some people here will not take notice of you. They see what they want to see, and will not waver a second from their beliefs. There are people here who believe PA is a den of iniquity because of the Prog-Related section, and don't know what is happening on other sites or publications - or perhaps they just refuse to see.

Who gives a damn what other sites are doing? We have no loyalty to them, or anybody else. We make decisions based on what we think is best for us. I could really care less what the boys next door are up to.


Well, I collaborate with one of those other sites, so I for one care about what happens outside PA. I hope I haven't lost my right to do so. And I would advise you to tone down the aggression - I want to have a civil discussion here, not have to defend myself every time I post.

There was nothing aggressive about my post, so there is nothing to tone down.

My point was simple: what happens on some other site has nothing to do with PA. So what if you collaborate elsewhere? I'm glad you do, and I'm sure you do a good job, but what does that have to do with anything? Just because some other site decides to become more all-inclusive has no bearing whether PA should or not. I should think that's an obvious point, but you keep citing other sites as if they should dictate what we do here, so I decided to state the obvious. I'm sorry if you misunderstood and took it personally, but I never showed any aggression towards you at all. 
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:01
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:


By the way, did anyone care to look at All Music. Check the Experimental Rock section

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:4437




Karl, you can bring up all the examples you want (as I have), but some people here will not take notice of you. They see what they want to see, and will not waver a second from their beliefs. There are people here who believe PA is a den of iniquity because of the Prog-Related section, and don't know what is happening on other sites or publications - or perhaps they just refuse to see.

Who gives a damn what other sites are doing? We have no loyalty to them, or anybody else. We make decisions based on what we think is best for us. I could really care less what the boys next door are up to.


Well, I collaborate with one of those other sites, so I for one care about what happens outside PA. I hope I haven't lost my right to do so. And I would advise you to tone down the aggression - I want to have a civil discussion here, not have to defend myself every time I post.


Edited by Raff - February 19 2010 at 10:03
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:58
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:


By the way, did anyone care to look at All Music. Check the Experimental Rock section

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=77:4437




Karl, you can bring up all the examples you want (as I have), but some people here will not take notice of you. They see what they want to see, and will not waver a second from their beliefs. There are people here who believe PA is a den of iniquity because of the Prog-Related section, and don't know what is happening on other sites or publications - or perhaps they just refuse to see.

Who gives a damn what other sites are doing? We have no loyalty to them, or anybody else. We make decisions based on what we think is best for us. I could really care less what the boys next door are up to.
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