Religious lyrics ?

religion is culture and culture is religion

Mr ProgFreak wrote: ^ if none of your beliefs contradict scientific evidence, then for me you are a Deist - with some additional esoteric beliefs maybe, but since they don't manifest in the real world or make claims about it that can be disproven, I would not call it a religion. BTW: What do you think about Taoism? I'm a layperson so please be easy on me if I'm wrong, but I don't see that much of a difference between Gaia and the great Tao (Spirit).

How much of what science believes today will stand the test of time? How many forces are out there which we don't recognize just because we don't have the senses to recognize them? By "senses" I mean  the senses we human beings have plus the apparatus of modern science. You may say "this is all speculation", but one will get you thousand that in a thousand years (provided human beings will still exist then) people will look at today''s science with the same mild smile as we today do on early alchemists. Some people feel that scientists of today more or less know how the world works, and only a few missing bits have to be filled in, but this is far from the truth. Every new discovery gives us dozens of new questions. Once again I recommend the excellent book "Why Aren't Black Holes Black?" by Robert M. Hazen and Maxime Singer, in which it is made clear how little we actually know.
Also mark that scientific evidence only remains so until a counterexample is found.. All we actually have are models of the world, and none of these models is totally free of contradiction.
Of course some of what modern science tells us must at least have an ounce of truth in it, else we would not have technological progress. But that does not say anything about what we don't know yet.
So believing only in what today's science "knows" is actually just as much speculation as believing in a deity.
As to Taoism: I am not an expert either, but as far as I know an important thing in Taoism is the principle of "wu wei", "action without action", which means a kind of going with the flow without meddling. But it does NOT mean "not acting at all"; it just means "doing the right thing". It is very hard to explain; you just have to do it.
Taoists believe that by understanding yourself you will understand the world. But take all of this with a grain of salt; I am by no means an expert on Taoism.

 Probably a better way of looking at this question  is to step away from any notion of theism ( or atheism ), and regard whatever words being sung as poetic expression. They could be "I get up, I get down" or "The power and the glory of God", both are valid passionate statements , and either could be fact or fiction. If Christian belief ( or Bhuddist, Islam, or Wiccan for that matter ) is not your position, then the message will just be a story , and take it at that level.

RoyFairbank wrote: Guldbamsen wrote: This thread has been centred mostly around religion concerning "God", but I just realised that much of the Black/Doom metal, some of which, is featured on this site, including other types of bands like Lucifer´s Friend and Black Sabbath - hell, Coven did a full black mass on one of their albums, - also feature religious lyrics albeit with a different approach altogether... Speaking as a European, I grew up with no kind of religious beliefs other than my parents teaching me to appreciate life itself - and much of the religion I saw or heard of, was very much attached to war, indoctrination and one-mindedness. Recently in the Bush junior years, many of my friends and people around where I live, have come to detest every single thing that even remotely touches the subject religion. I try and explain to them, that I find that as much discriminatory and wrong - as the exact opposite they are fighting, but who can really win conversations, when you are dealing with people who don´t care? No, no, no (with regards to the first part of the post). Most real human religion outside a few Eastern and extinct religions (which are really very similar) has taken the form of worship of Jehovah and tribute to his parasitic churches and bowing to his chosen ruling class and serving in the army of his chosen country... This is what we call an "institution" and "ideology." The devil-worship stuff is just a joke by mindless drug-addicts to sell records and is predicated on the existence of Jehovah worship, making the devil-worship stuff seem risque and controversial. It is has none of the building blocks of a true religion.

You get institutions and ideology everywhere, not just in religion. Capitalism is as much an ideology as any religion. Religion is not bad per se, but when it becomes a mass movement it is no longer to be trusted, just like any other mass movement. I am a member of a small religious community of 14 (a High Priestess actually). We worship Gaia, the ancient Greek Goddess of the Earth. We don't ask anyone to switch off their brains and believe in some dogma, we just feel a spiritual gratitude towards Mother Earth which we express.
I see the world as a process with lots of sub-processes. I am deeply convinced that any sufficiently complex and self-referential process develops a mind, a consciousness. Our brains are such processes, for example, or more correctly our bodies, since the body is an important part of that process. Since brain scientists don't have the slightest idea where our consciousness comes from (trust me,they don't), this hypothesis is as good as any other. Now the most complex process in the world, with myriads of self-references, is the universe; it is hence just logiccal for me to believe it has a mind, a consciousness, which I call "God".
With what right do I call the hypothetical mind of the Universe "God"? Well, the definition of God is that it (I prefer "it" over "he") is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient entity. The Universe certainly is omnipresent. It is omnipotent too; everything that can happen in it. And, as astrophysical and quantum physical studies show, the universe appears to have a kind of holographic structure, so that all the information in it is somehow in each particle. Hence we have omniscience too.
Now why do I worship Gaia then instead of the universe? Quite simply because her manifestations are directly accessible to me while the universe as a whole is out of reach. It's mind is so much above me that trying to communicate with it would be like one of my blood cells trying to communicate with my brain, only the difference in scale is a lot larger even in the case of me and the universe than in the case of my brain and the blood cell. "The ways of God are inscrutable" is more than just an empty saying.
I am quite certain that you will sneer at my beliefs, non-religious people usually do. But none of my beliefs is in contradiction to anything modern science tells us.

Guldbamsen wrote: This thread has been centred mostly around religion concerning "God", but I just realised that much of the Black/Doom metal, some of which, is featured on this site, including other types of bands like Lucifer´s Friend and Black Sabbath - hell, Coven did a full black mass on one of their albums, - also feature religious lyrics albeit with a different approach altogether... Speaking as a European, I grew up with no kind of religious beliefs other than my parents teaching me to appreciate life itself - and much of the religion I saw or heard of, was very much attached to war, indoctrination and one-mindedness. Recently in the Bush junior years, many of my friends and people around where I live, have come to detest every single thing that even remotely touches the subject religion. I try and explain to them, that I find that as much discriminatory and wrong - as the exact opposite they are fighting, but who can really win conversations, when you are dealing with people who don´t care?

No, no, no (with regards to the first part of the post). Most real human religion outside a few Eastern and extinct religions (which are really very similar) has taken the form of worship of Jehovah and tribute to his parasitic churches and bowing to his chosen ruling class and serving in the army of his chosen country...

This is what we call an "institution" and "ideology."

The devil-worship stuff is just a joke by mindless drug-addicts to sell records and is predicated on the existence of Jehovah worship, making the devil-worship stuff seem risque and controversial.

It is has none of the building blocks of a true religion.


Edited by RoyFairbank - July 01 2010 at 19:57

I don't like any religious lyrics on what forms it is. But i will still enjoy the music if it's suit my taste. But if i had too rate a cd with religious lyrics, i would take away .5 points. It's like dirinking a beer with just a tiny bad aftertaste in the mouth. (all comparaison being lame...)

Edited by rdtprog - June 30 2010 at 16:33

This is very thin ice. I am atheist and I find preachy stuff a bit irritating with some exceptions.

StyLaZyn wrote: With me, as long as the religious overtones are not in your face apparent (like Jesus I love you and you are my saviour), I can deal with it.  I can't tolerate Neal Morse. He should make all his solo material available as instrumentals.

No Neal Morse = No Spock's Beard = No Transatlantic. I'm afraid your gonna have to take his Christian rock career up the ass.

On the whole I'd say the majority of pop stars are more religious than proggers anyway. Prog comes from the freethinking 1960s, is often the music of the well-educated and is less determined by popular culture compared to pop music. The individuals associated with pop are more influenced by mundane belief systems both casual and forced by moral convention (oh yes, I believe in a higher power; I can only thank God... etc.).

I can name plenty of athiests who do prog. I can't think of hardly a single poptart or popflake that hasn't pointed to heaven with teary eyes, of course as an obligation.

There is something religious too about pop themes and lyrics, sickeningly endless reiteration that human beings need mates. I love you, I luv you, I want you, let's dance... its ritual.

Actually, the only religious stuff on my what-cha-ma-call-it player (whizz, winamp? ???) are Bobby D (Bob Dylan) but not his REALLY sickly gospel religious album, Saved, its the only album of his I don't have on there. The other thing I have which is pretty religious is some stuff by Wetton/Downes. You'll recall, "God Walks With Us" etc. etc. etc.

I've read that Hackett is quite religious but there's nothing to suggest it in his music, don't thank God.