Non Capitalist Government

RoyFairbank wrote: Hitler was not a socialist and the tendency which he was a representative of was not socialist. He was a representative of  fascism which acted on behalf and in concert with the monopolists of Germany. Fascism saved German capitalism from revolution just as it did in Italy and Spain. . . . So you see, Stalinism doesn't even equal Bolshevism.

And fascism doesn't even equal national socialism. I don't say it's good, but definitely better then nazism.

communism in theory, but as said, it would become one of the others eventually.

Ricochet wrote: Absolutely none of the above.

I wholeheartedly agree with you there.  Don't much like capitalism either.  The problem isn't so much with the theory as with the leaders and human nature in general...

... in the UK!

harmonium.ro wrote: Is it a finnish trip the one you want to finish?

Yes, and to be honest I think it's one of those "bad trips". Well, at least I didn't pay for it.




Edited by Vompatti - July 08 2009 at 14:02

Norbert wrote: 17 people should be sent for a educational trip  to North Korea, and 9 to Somalia...

May I finish my educational trip in Finland first?

crimhead wrote: JJLehto wrote: Yea, we got pretty off topic  Debating communism is fun but one thing is for sure I really f*cking hate the corporate world. Always have, but the sh*t their doing to my mom at the moment. Capitalism blows, really. Capitalism only blows unless you are the one at the top benefiting from it.

Yup, which I am not.
And if by some MIRACLE, (and it'd have to be a miracle) I was at the top I would run my company soo differently.

Hitler was not a socialist and the tendency which he was a representative of was not socialist. He was a representative of  fascism which acted on behalf and in concert with the monopolists of Germany. Fascism saved German capitalism from revolution just as it did in Italy and Spain.

In 1919 the world teetered on the brink of world revolution, but the failure of the German revolution, the murder of German revolutionary leaders Karl Liebknecht and Rosa Luxemburg and the betrayal of Social Democracy put the World Revolution on hold and threatened the newly won workers state in Russia.

After the Russian Civil War  was won (subsequently a forgotten event in American military history) Russia was in shambles. Nearly a decade of war and now economic isolation created a severe crisis in Russian Society. With the failure of the world revolution, especially the German revolutions of 1919 and 1923 a conservative, conciliatory  mood began building in the new bureaucrats and functionaries who were called into existence as the result of the severe demands on the worker's state. Lenin died in 1924. He was soon made a saint by the bureaucracy as they began fighting the old Bolsheviks, the revolutionaries who had led the workers to victory in 1917 and through the civil war, but whose devotion to world revolution stood in the way of the bureaucrats instinct for survival.  Trotsky was exiled in 1927 and the Russian opposition which he had led was forced underground. Other ranking Bolsheviks thought they could submit to the Stalinists and help the Soviet Union in this way the best. Beginning in the mid 30s, these men and millions of others who formed the vanguard of the workers state were executed. The vast majority of the revolutionary Bolsehviks were imprisoned, murdered, and sent to death camps.  Look at the first council of people's commissars

People's Commissar	Original incumbent	Death
Chairman	Vladimir Lenin	Natural causes 1924
Secretary	Nikolai Gorbunov	Executed 1938
People's Commissariat for Agriculture	Vladimir Milyutin	Died in prison 1937
People's Commissariat for Military Affairs	Vladimir Antonov-Ovseyenko Nikolai Krylenko	Executed 1939 Executed 1938
People's Commissariat for Naval Affairs	Pavel Dybenko	Executed 1938
People's Commissariat for Trade and Industry	Viktor Nogin	1924
People's Commissariat for Education	Anatoly Lunacharsky	1933
People's Commissariat for Food	Ivan Teodorovich	Executed 1937
People's Commissariat for Foreign Affairs	Leon Trotsky	Assassinated 1940
People's Commissariat for Interior Affairs	Alexei Rykov	Executed 1938
People's Commissariat for Justice	Georgy Oppokov	Executed 1937
People's Commissariat for Labour	Alexander Shlyapnikov	Executed 1937
People's Commissariat of Nationalities	Joseph Stalin	Natural causes 1953
People's Commissariat for Post and Telegraph	Nikolai Glebov-Avilov	Executed 1937
People's Commissariat of Railways	(vacant)
People's Commissariat of Finance	Ivan Skvortsov-Stepanov	1928

Not one of the individuals who lived to 1936 were spared by the Stalinist bureaucracy in their great terror which destroyed virtually the entire revolutionary vanguard of Russia.

The bureaucracy was devoted to staking out an existence amid capitalist encirclement and, alongside capitalism, worked at stamping out and betraying all revolutionary tendencies in the working class worldwide and at home in favor of "peaceful coexistence" with imperialism and the ludicrous and telling slogan of "socialism in one country."

So you see, Stalinism doesn't even equal Bolshevism.

Once again, the definitive resource is Trotsky and especially his Revolution Betrayed.


Edited by RoyFairbank - June 01 2009 at 11:25

Yea, we got pretty off topic  Debating communism is fun but one thing is for sure
I really f*cking hate the corporate world. Always have, but the sh*t their doing to my mom at the moment.
Capitalism blows, really.


Edited by JJLehto - May 29 2009 at 11:25

JJLehto wrote: stonebeard wrote: Padraic wrote: JJLehto wrote: Wasn't Communism meant for the industrial nations of Europe like England and Germany, and many felt Russia was not ready, since it was a  rural nation with no industry? That's what I always thought, that industrialization was a necessary step prior to the dictatorship of the proletariat, or something like that (clearly I'm no expert).  Yeppers. Capitalism was supposed to be necessary for Communism. Funny how ass-backwards Marx was. Was it Marx? I remember reading a quote once where Marx said...something along the lines of...The Russians get into everything and mess things up I don't know if Marx wanted Communism for Russia, but Lenin went and did it anyway. Albeit, in a different form from Marx

From what I know, Marx was basing his studies on the industrial society of 19th century England, and he thought that an agrarian country such as Russia is not suitable for communism. Then came history and ...