Recurring themes in prog

moshkito wrote: Hi,   Gotta love it ... all we need is a professor here ... we're discussing musical history and there are names for everyone of those concepts ... from Symphony, to Concerto, to Lieder, to Etude ... to .... a miriad of names for them and composers.   All in all, the most common tradition to work with is the most obvious, and the one that is taught in schools, and many Prog'rs are not immune to its influence, and folks like Keith Emerson used to love to rip whole passages for a lot of their material ... some for additional musical passages and some for new songs.   Music theory is what you're discussing here ... we just have to give some of these folks better credit for doing work that is way more than just a pop song!   There are some rock musicians that do not work in music theory and I often think that in their process is a "let's just do this" ... sort of a la Miles Davis (surprise .. he's not one of my favorites for some odd ball reason ... but his compositional methods were very "anty-music" as it became known later -- and defined a lot of jazz too!) ... and often the one thing that ties it all together is one theme that eventually a drummer, or bass player or guitarist or keyboard player will throw in, and it's a hint ... time for us to meet up again ... and that is interesting in a compositional sense ... and sometimes very good.   Pink Floyd is actually a good example. You can easily play Echoes, Atom Heart Mother, Dark Side of the Moon, and Obscured by Clouds ... and you will find a couple of notes on Richard's piano that seem to repeat ... and I think these were the "joining points" for the jams to stop and all to come together that separated the old days (quite clear in the bootlegs) and later Pink Floyd. In all cases, this theme ... brings about a change in the music ... into a new area.   Is this a symphony? A concert (a la bach, beethoven, etc) ?   We can't really find any difference in the compositional nature of "Dark Side of the Moon" ... than any of us can in Beethoven's 5th, or Mahler's 15th!   I have to tell you that I have a preference for musicians and creativity that is ... not structured per se ... and this is one reason why I tend to enjoy folks like Peter Hammill (not thrilled with the new Van Der Graaf stuff for some reason ... seems re-hashed to my ear? ... who is very good at ... just expressing what he feels, and does not usually worry about "composition" per se ... although I had ... for the 1st time ever listening to Peter the feeling that ... it has become a song ... I think he needs a break, but can't take that break ... and the opportunity to show and see him or VDG is almost gone ... the desire to be "there" ... still a bit of the rock'n'roll mistique perhaps?   In the early days, in the really experimental stuff on their 2nd, 3rd album and 4th album, I really like the "sound sphere" that Djam Karet creates ... unffortunately after that, they sort of fell into ... create a theme, add the 4 beats and ...we got a song! To me, I still love the band ... but the exciting visuals that the cascade of sounds created ... was far out ... and for it to just become a song ... the visual collectiveness dwindled a lot ... a heck of a lot ... still a nice band ... but not have as good as some of the far out stuff they did then.   In this sense King Crimson did some nice things ... but they, also were tied to the sonata element/format .... and still are these days ... and I am positive that Robert Fripp is always looking to break those barriers ... and you can see it in his Fripp and Eno stuff and what not ... see?

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Use of repeitition is a major part of musical theory. I also like the idea that it came out of jamming. I often use repitition in a jam to spring into an exploration of the peice we are creating. I know that is at odds with your opinions on 'theme, 4beats, song' concept but i feel that the real problems caused by such songs come from underelaboration. If you strip most songs back you have a repeted theme along with a 4/4 beat. Look at 'locomotive breath', essentially just a relentless bass line which is made more by the awsome piono, lyrics and flute work. Another example is King crimsons '21st centuary scitzoid man' which has a very structured opening theme/riff but degenerates into a free form jazz peice before collecting for a final verse. In fact, most of my favourite songs probably come out of this system of creativity which i enjoy.

 

Yup.  He considered ALL of his work to be one huge piece.  He even came up with terms to describe it - Project/Object and Conceptual Continuity.

 

 

 

I'm actually experiementing a lot with the concept to a great extent in my own music.