Bluffing a music geek

Well, I went on eBay a few years back and scored an acetate of Fidelio, the Basement Tapes, which the seller claims he found at a garage sale.

Rocktopus wrote: debrewguy wrote: Rocktopus wrote: debrewguy wrote: But I've never ever ever ever ever claimed that any genre of music was superior to any other. I do, well not as much the genres in itself. I don't think its snobbish to state that Beethoven is superior to DJ Bobo. Sometimes its a little more difficult to tell, but I'm no culture relativist.  Ah, but then how do you prove one's superiority over another ? If you prefer Bach, would you be as open to being told that Beethoven is superior to Bach ? Do you know how one could or would prove which is "superior" ? No. I just need to pretend I don't know that Beethoven Ninth's superior to this in every thinkable way. Doesn't mean I have to measure every piece of music or artistic expression up against each other. DB - so we agree that there is no need o rpoint to argue about the relative superiority of any piece of music ? Stating preferences, or saying that the best musician you've found is X, that's one thing. Claiming subjective opinion to be objective is hard to do. Do you cite album sales, concert tickets sold ? Do you comb the internet to see which group is most cited as an influence ? I've heard all your arguments many times. If all artists had that attitude, there would not exist any masterpieces.( Are you sure ? If so, why would that be)  If every artistic expression is equal, and no one can say one piece of work is greater than another, and knowledge doesn't make opinions more weighty, then everyone and everything would end up mediocre. DB - The point is not whether all are equal. The point is claiming that one can proclaim one piece of music, or musical act as being objectively superior to another. And being knowledgeable about music, whether its' history, theory, or even critical/commercial success just means you know more about the history, theory, or critical/commercial/success.Your opinion is still subjective. There is no need for experts to tell people what is good , great, mediocre or just plain bad. In Pop music, that is now known as Hype. Hype, whether it comes from a Phd in Music, or Warner Bros marketing dept, has no bearing on the music's actual quality. And if expertise is a valid measure of one's god given objective judgement, then do you accept the many classical music expert or jazzbo disdain for Pop/Rock music, in all its' forms, including prog, jazz fusion and other genres ? Again, if you prefer Samla to Zamla, is there really a point to arguing which one is "superior" ? Can't you just leave it at which one you like better or find more interesting ? I.E. stating a subjective point of view, rather that proclaiming an unattainable, and unprovable objective statement ? Who's the prettiest - Kim Cattrall, Michelle Pfeiffer, or Susan Sarandon ? Do they really measure up to Catherine Deneuve ? Or Jayne Mansfield ? Does Dolly Parton surpass all five in beauty ? Is Queen Latifah better looking ? Should we say Billie Holiday beats 'em all ? Can we get a consensus as to how Tony Curtis in drag measures up to them ? Do you look at PA's top 100 and go, "These people look pretty intelligent (for the most part) and thus their ranking is true to my tastes" ? Defenetly not. DB - time for a humour transplant, Rocky. The point was to say that because one agrees with something, that the statement in and of itself is suddenly proven to be intelligent by the very fact that it matches our opinion. Example, I agree (I don't) with George Bush's position on Iraq, therefore Dubya is right about Iraq. So please understand there is a difference between my "anti-snobbishness" and accepting a person's freedom to prefer one piece of art over another for whatever reasons that person wants to use for comparison's sake. Is Samla superior to Zappa ? Should Univers Zero fans bow to the obviously higher artistic merit of Henry Cow ? Were Badfinger really deserving of better record sales than Big Star ? Will Nancy believe Harry's alibi and decide to stay for the sake of the kids ? Tune in tomorrow when our true worth is found to not depend on our tastes in various forms of art. Will DB ever find an editor with enough time on his hands to whittle down his posts ? Will Alex Kovalev carry the Habs to the Stanley Cup in this, the 100th anniversary of the Montreal Canadiens ? And if he doesn't, will Yes ask him to stand in for Benoit David ? If Yes takes him away, what will cause the most anger in Montreal - losing their best player or having a native son loses out a big musical break ? And most of all , where can I get an early copy of Cynic's Traced in Air before its' release date of Oct 20 ?

Guzzman wrote: jammun wrote: Reminds me of the first question I used to ask my daughter's boyfriends: "David or Sammy"?   Occurs to me I should give the appropriate response based on their answer:   1.  "Who?".  This guy and I aren't going to have a lot to talk about. 2.  "Sammy!"  This guy's a loser. 3.  "David!".  Better make sure daughter is taking precautions!     Why is somebody a loser just because he likes Sammy Davis Jr.? And why should a girl take precautions dating David Crosby?

I do believe he was talking about Bing Crosby, Bill's brother who added an "R" to the family name.

jammun wrote: Reminds me of the first question I used to ask my daughter's boyfriends: "David or Sammy"?   Occurs to me I should give the appropriate response based on their answer:   1.  "Who?".  This guy and I aren't going to have a lot to talk about. 2.  "Sammy!"  This guy's a loser. 3.  "David!".  Better make sure daughter is taking precautions!

Why is somebody a loser just because he likes Sammy Davis Jr.? And why should a girl take precautions dating David Crosby?

Reminds me of the first question I used to ask my daughter's boyfriends:

Edited by jammun - September 25 2008 at 22:00

Rocktopus wrote: debrewguy wrote: But I've never ever ever ever ever claimed that any genre of music was superior to any other. I do, well not as much the genres in itself. I don't think its snobbish to state that Beethoven is superior to DJ Bobo. Sometimes its a little more difficult to tell, but I'm no culture relativist.

Ah, but then how do you prove one's superiority over another ? If you prefer Bach, would you be as open to being told that Beethoven is superior to Bach ? Do you know how one could or would prove which is "superior" ?
Stating preferences, or saying that the best musician you've found is X, that's one thing.
Claiming subjective opinion to be objective is hard to do. Do you cite album sales, concert tickets sold ?
Do you comb the internet to see which group is most cited as an influence ?
Do you look at PA's top 100 and go, "These people look pretty intelligent (for the most part) and thus their ranking is true to my tastes" ?
In my younger days, I'd argue passsssssionately that this band was more artistic than the other because of reason A or B and so on. No one that I remember was impressed enough with my arguements so as to change their "allegiances". The best response was always, "well I don't know/care/believe about that, I just like their songs."
As if your own tastes were an insufficient reason to prefer one band over another

debrewguy wrote: As quoted from Wired "Ever been smacked down by a friend with an encyclopedic knowledge of music? You can fight back without really having a clue. — David Thorpe Adopt obscure tastes. So obscure they're nonexistent. Tell your friend you're a big fan of the Egyptologists or some other made-up group. (What's he gonna say — "I've heard of every band, and that's not one of them"?) If he can't get a handle on your palate, your opinions are unimpeachable. Answer questions with questions. "I think I've heard of Flop. Who was their manager?" Checkmate. It's surely not your fault this so-called fan can't provide enough background info to help you pluck Flop from your mental jukebox. Use the magic words. To paint bands you know nothing about with broad, meaningless strokes, you need only two adjectives: overrated and underrated. With careful use, you can position yourself as a sophisticated critic of criticism, a qualified judge of not just music but the canon itself. Leg-sweep your foes with baffling pronouncements. The Beatles? Underrated." Now, out to the PA world of posts to practice these anti music snob tricks.

OK

You know back in the day (late '70's) all the prog music fans I was acquainted with were more into playing the game of turning each other on to new obscure artists that each of us had discovered. 

But hey, no problems having fun with those who take things way too seriously.

debrewguy wrote: But I've never ever ever ever ever claimed that any genre of music was superior to any other.

I do, well not as much the genres in itself. I don't think its snobbish to state that Beethoven is superior to DJ Bobo. Sometimes its a little more difficult to tell, but I'm no culture relativist. 

I love antagonizing snobs, especially metal elitists! Nothing like watching the agony on their face as you claim you didn't have time to listen to the newest brutal death metal band because you were too busy listening to The Decemberists.