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Avantgardehead View Drop Down

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Posted: April 19 2008 at 13:23

I like it because it's trippy (hence the name!), experimental, and often uses female voices. That and rapping and ghetto lyrics are absent. >:D

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Posted: April 19 2008 at 12:00

Shakespeare wrote:

It's a branch of hip-hop employing mild minimalism and psychedelic elements to make it 'trippy'. I like the idea.

Yes it's trippy - that's characterized quite good - it's a blend of HIP-HOP (not RAP), PSYCHEDELIC and DUB and there are some goods acts like Massive Attack, Smith & Mighty, Fila Brazillia, Nightmares On Wax ... Clap

Edited by Rivertree - April 19 2008 at 12:01

Shakespeare View Drop Down

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Posted: April 19 2008 at 11:52

Avantgardehead wrote:

TV on the Radio has some faint aspects of hip-hop (luckily without any rapping), but that's as far as I'll go...

I do enjoy trip-hop, though!

Do you know Dälek? They're avant-garde rap. I've heard so much about them (particularly from Folly) and I'm about to give them my first listen. I thought you might be interested, since you're avantgardehead.

Edited by Shakespeare - April 19 2008 at 11:54

Shakespeare View Drop Down

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Posted: April 19 2008 at 11:49

It's a branch of hip-hop employing mild minimalism and psychedelic elements to make it 'trippy'. I like the idea.

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Posted: April 19 2008 at 11:34

Can someone explain me what trip-hop is?

Avantgardehead View Drop Down

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Posted: April 19 2008 at 03:47

TV on the Radio has some faint aspects of hip-hop (luckily without any rapping), but that's as far as I'll go...

I do enjoy trip-hop, though!

http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian

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Posted: April 19 2008 at 00:37

keiser willhelm View Drop Down

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Posted: April 19 2008 at 00:32

what reputation?

What im listening to

The T

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Posted: April 19 2008 at 00:23

debrewguy wrote:

Yeah but the fun part is to Guess Who Big%20smile

To Be Tee O or not to Be Tee O, that is a question .

Well I am Tee O... Guess I have answered the Danish's question now...

By the way, I own like 8 rap cds... even Gangsta rap for that matter... I don't go to rap to find extreme musicality... I just wanted to explore the social issues and then I realize I actually enjoy and a lot Dr. Dre's The Chronic...

.. My reputation nas finally been destroyed....

debrewguy

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Posted: April 18 2008 at 12:17

Yeah but the fun part is to Guess Who Big%20smile

To Be Tee O or not to Be Tee O, that is a question .

"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: April 18 2008 at 00:31

debrewguy wrote:

DB4-Just keep in mind that there is an underground hip hop scene, and many acts that are not featured on radio or TV. I don't follow it, I sometimes read some reviews in Exclaim. And it seems to those who would better than either of us, that there is something more to Rap than bling, Hos, and Excess machismo. But, just as some of our fave prog acts have a devoted, but small following, there are Hip Hop artists who, at best, are making a career, a living if you will, while putting out good Hip Hop music.

That's the difference DB, Prog is an almost ubnderground genre, but you don't need to dig into it to find something it suits you, I guess there might be some good Rap or Hip Hop but each time somebody mentions that "Rara Avis" (rare bird), I get more disappointed.

If we relied on Radio and TV to describe prog, it would be limited to fancy fairy Tolkien inspired lyrics (Yes & early Rush), folksy oblique commentary (Tull, Strawbs), dark self centered anger (Waters' Floyd, Tool), pop with orchestra (Moody Blues) and not much else.

That's the point, I never trust radios, I found all the Prog I like in Perú (a country where it's even more unpopular) without looking in a radio, I search Rap and hip Hop and ALL that I found is sub-standard for me.

We both know that this would not even begin to show but the slightest glimmer of the diamond that the prog scene was, is & hopefully will continue to be. And yes, prog-haters will use the same approach to ripping on prog. Focus on the stereotypes, over-emphasize the excesses, and avoid having to admit the actual breadth that the genre encompasses.

Which stereotypes? The comments on Prog, the excsses, the Pomp, the self indulgent music, make me like it more LOL

DB4 - actually, the reference is one I picked up from a PBS show. It was a BBC show that traced the development in 20th century "serious" music. The MC, who spoke a very high class Queen's English, mentioned some of the avant-garde composers in the 50s who were playing with this new "technology", the recording tape. He followed through with Steve Reich (which is where I picked up my interest in this music, I think it was "Trains" ???) on to the early 80s New York rappers, from the LPs on a phonograph, to today's digital editing technology. I would not dare compare most of the sampling done in Rap to the afore mentioned composers. But would you agree that there might be a few Hip Hop artists out there (unfortunately, not enjoying the immense mainstream success that lesser, heck, no talented rappers have) that are making artistically valid music using these same techniques ? Again, the commercially successful may not represent the best in Hip Hop. Just the most profitable.

Might...but despite the research, I haven't found that talented musician, the problem with rap and Hip Hop is that it may be a great artist which most probably exists, the problem is digging into millions of albums to find one.

DB4- I liked the P diddy song, I didn't go out and buy it. Same as I liked watching Baywatch for a few minutes. Ear Candy, Eye Candy, Ephemera. And frankly, all genres have their "clones" (see neo-prog and the supposed Genesis influence thereupon).

There's a lot of Genesis influence in Neo Prog, that's true, but lets be honest.......How many clones are there? I guess a handful, it's very different being influenced from sampling or copying.

Everybody is influenced by somebody, even the Classic era musicians received a lot of influence from Baroque musicians, but they are not copying or sampling.

If you listen Mendelsohn's Wedding March you will notice more than a casual touch of it in Lohengrin's Wedding March by Wagner, not because Wagner admired Mendelsohn's, most likely because he hated him and didn't wanted the Jewish Musician to be performed in a Queen's wedding and his not.

But it's not a copy, it's an inspiration.

DB4 - Some of the compositions have used tape manipulations. and yes, a lot of Rap on mainstream radio and TV reproduces. But again, the big $$$ stars should be held as the rule for the Hip Hop Genre.

If they represent let's say 70 %,they are already the rule, I believe that more oif 90% of the rappers are mainstream rappers.

DB4- Public Enemy used some of MAlcom X's words. Heroes of Hiphocracy redid Gil Scott-Heron's the Revolution will not be televised into "Television, the drug of a Nation". The point being that one's culture , poetry or verse has often served as a basis for inspiration.

But what did Public Enemy added to Malcom X's words? A repetitive chord and nothing else, On the other hand...What did Los Jaivas added to Neruda's words? A musical work (Not Prog IMO, much more Folk) that stands on it's own, if you take the lyeics, the music alone is magnifiscent.

But again, using the best & brightest as an example for your side (as I did with Reich) and highlighting the worst from the other side to validate your (or my) arguement is not an objective way to judge its' quality. I'm sure that there must be some prog bands, whose music and or lyrics, are inane or downright rotten. Peart's lyrics from 2112 were said by some in the punk movement to be Fascist in nature. Of course, most of them had no idea who Ayn Rand was, and for the most part, as many do, never bothered to actually listen to them all and get the whole picture. Then take that opinion, and apply it to the worst quality heavy metal or prog, and one can easily build up a Potemkin village of an arguement.

Again DB, you had to do a lot of research in Prog to find some really bad lyrics, in Rap violence, hatred is the rule.

And BTW: I see no problem im Ayn Rand.

DB4 - For any music, you need good musicians. But good, that would mean in the talent dept, not necessarily the technical skills. Many a teenage guitar sensation can out play Robert Johnson. None has managed to make music for the ages as Monsieur J has.
And , (this one's for you T) if the Beatles had also been been virtuoso musos, would they have been Dream Theater

Not necesarilly, I believe the problem of DT is that the priorize the performance over the composition, Lennon, McCartney and Harrison were so great composers that this would had never happened.

DB4 - Again, you generalize. Sampling, when used, is not always just playing the whole backing arrangement, just to throw some words over. Many of the sampling that is done nowadays, and again, I emphasize that one must go beyond the Mainstream commercial & superficial surface that most of us are exposed to, is of sounds, beats, that then manipulated to create the finished product. As far as guys playing a record and adding a rhythm pattern, that is the stereotype, and no longer the rule. The Milli Vanilli part, I don't get.

The Milly Vanilly part is mentioned because they never sung, all the music and vocals was provided by other persons pre-taped.

DB4- Anyone for Zeuhl ? Magma I couldn't get into. ANd they were said to be the kings. the creators of Zeuhl. Then I got Dun - Eros. Dun is Zeuhl ? But I don't like Zeuhl ! At least I thought I didn't ... Anyone for Neo-Prog ? Derivative, glossy, pablum for the prog challenged ? I got into IQ. Marillion ... iffy, I couldn't see Fish being as good as they said. Clutching at Straws ... then I go back to Script, Fugazi ... aaaahhh. But wait, what ... Hogarth ... nah ... again ... prejudices ... I read a review from Gatot, I think. Never mind what you think prog or Marillion should be ... just listen. Aaaaahhhhh, Brave .... Marbles .... AAAAHHH. Yeah, I can see why Marillion still is held in high esteem by many prog fans.
But Neo-Prog as a genre ???

Do they sample? Do thet copy? Do they base theoir music on arepetive chord?, all the answers are no, you may not like Neo Prog, as a fact before joining PA I used to see Neo as a second class genre, but things have changed.

Anyway, I repeat, you may noiot like Neo Prog, but you can't deny there as estetical values, rhythm, melody, virtuosism in their music, I dislke King Crimson (Except for a couple albums) but I recoignize their merit.

So far, and this is admittedly based on MP3 streaming here and elsewhere, the other flag bearers of Neo have not caused the same reaction. So, 2 bands out of how many Neo-prog acts here at PA ? I am not an expert on Rap. I stumbled onto Public Enemy, and albums 2 through to 5 are great. The Roots, so far have put out a good string. Some acts have been one hit wonders, rather like some of our beloved prog Italian bands. Dream Warriors debut was very good, with only 2-3 songs that were formulaic. None of the songs, though, included anything close to the mysogenistic, materialistic, and moronic word play generally held to be the Rap stereotype. Same with Arrested Development's debut. Give their single Mr Wendel a listen if you can. Very interesting social commentary without bring preachy or "speechy". The Beastie Boys middle period albums are a veritable treasure trove of genre mish mashes. Jazz beats and instrumental parts, sound & tape manipulations, master works what Rap can be when done by artists. Yes, I used that elitist word in association with 3 white NY boys who stole a previously black art form. The aforementioned Heroes of Hiphopcracy, with lyrics that stand with the best as cultural critique of American consumer society.
Then, we have 50 cent, Biggie, thissie and thatie, and abunch more that rely on Gangsta image and tough guy image, and mucho interbreeding, I mean, guest stars , to hype their product. So yes, there is bad rap. I think there is bad prog.

Believe me, I tried most of them, and I find no artistic merit in them, maybe some kind of street poetry, but music...I don't know.

DB4 - not to say that some imitators are a guilty pleasure. Neuwachstein are not Genesis, but they still merit a regular spin in my CD player. I can't say that Starcastle mean much to me, but even derided as a Yes clone, they had their fans back in the day.

Starcastle is one of the few real clones I found in Prog, but still, they made music.

DB4- Outkast are the kind of act that are the Hip Hop (no, not rap, but the wider genre) equivalent of Queen. Remember their hit from a year r two ago - Hey Ya . Acoustic guitar, pop perfection, and hooks galore. If it wasn't for the fact that videos still mattered a bit back then, most people would not have known this was a black duo. Gnarls Barkley, well ... if you have heard their smash "Crazy", well ... I still have people who can't figure how I can like this music, as they think I'm limited to classic, metal, prog and other louder types of music. Imagine modern soul. No rapping here, but some of the best singing you'll hear anywhere from the big man Cee Lo. Hip Hop, though, not rap. 50 cent. Unfortunately, the act that kept the Gangsta generating machine going in high gear. Don't care for him. PE and the Roots, see above comments. Kanye, as with some other genres' acts, his ego prevents me from even wanting to give him a listen (hello Yngwie); Eminem - surprisingly, he does have some good material. Unsurprisingly, some of his other material detracts from his talents, at least in some peoples ears (mine incl.). Lauryn Hill really represents the soul end of the Hip Hop genre. Which likely drove a big part of her solo success. Wyclef Jean, is good, but apart from a few songs, I don't really enjoy his music.

But as far as noticing a difference, we can apply the same principle as those who dislike or don't care for prog or any other genre ... if you haven't found at least one act that you like, you can't be bothered, eh.

I haven't found a single act to be honest.

DB4 - Er, do you mean that it's ok to be repetitive if it's psychedelic and jam based ?

Jamming is not being repetitive, Jam = Free improvisation, that's the contrary of being repetitive.

DB4 - Er, I mean melody , like, can you hum it ? And some aren't even, or don't seem to be blending anything resembling a melody.

The problem is that they blend two or three melodies simultaneously, so it sounds chaotic, but that is called controlled cacophony, they want to create that chaos, but if you listen carefully, there's a structure and very strong.

DB4- The Doors, except for one or two songs, actually had some structure to their work. I like some of it. Indeed, one of my favourite XTC albums is the compilation of their Dukes of the Stratosphear albums. I like some of the Love tunes, JA, and many of the so-called nuggets of the 60s. But, as with all genres, a lot of it is not exactly, er ... good. Pedestrian, to me, would be when a band seems, or sounds like they're just going through the motions, or really just putting out songs according to a strict formula, i.e. no personality of their own, or any at all. Mind you, to turn your arguement around here, a few good bands do not make for an interesting genre.

Precisely DB, Psychedelia is one of the first Rock Genres that abandoned the formulaic Blues Based Rock in search of new influences, structures, sounds, they were incredibly explorative, just the contrary of what you define as pedestrian.

You want some more bands? Try Santana, despite what it's said here, early Santana is not Jazz Fusion, it's San Francisco Psyche at it's purest expresion, instead of oriental influence, the went for Latin Music, and as them thousands, try the Peruvians Traffic Sound, you will be amazed.

DB4 - Yes, admittedly, if someone is taking the time or making the effort, they may see a difference. But, in my experience, they might hear a difference between bands, but not enough to say, oh that's not the band you just played yesterday, that's another group. As a matter of fact, none of my friends can tell the difference between any of the Italian bands I have (40 + and counting). They like some of it, and some others, it just sounds the same. As I outweigh them, and love to argue (who knew) they prefer the latter comment to saying it's boring

If somebody can't find a difference between the King Crimson and Genesis and Yes influence PFM, the magic operatic excese of Di Giacomo in Banco or the oriental influenced Le Orme, well, that guy is in troubles.

DB4 - I've yet to have a friend say that they disliked a band for those reasons. Mostly, it came down to - "I don't care for the music/songs/arrangements" . They have used the same comments for their dislike of Rap. Although I have been able to sneak a few songs in that caught them by surprise. Same as with prog.

They don't care for music/song/arrangements? Your friends knowledge in music is very very limited, almost all the musical genres are based in music/somg and arrangements.

DB4-My point was not the division, just that some could not get past the loud guitars. At least that was my general conclusion after reading the threads. It reminded me of the old rock n roll call to arms "If it's too loud, you're too f**king old".

There are tastes for everything

DB4 - Yes, but remember that those who argued the most thought they were applying objective criteria, instead of using music they considered prog as THE example of what prog was exactly. I posted the comment that they should just try and replace the loud guitars with mellotrons and Hammond organs (in their mind's ear, so to speak) and see if some prog metal bands might be of interest to them.

Many people believe their taste is an objective criteria, but we know is not truth.

DB4 - In a very limited range. Dylan's classic All Along the Watchtower is only two chords. With a third and fourth added by Hendrix.

Again, you have to search for one bad example, in Rap you have to to dig for one decent example?

DB4- Again, the stereotype hides the reality. If I take a 12 bar blues in A, and change the words, and twist the beat, have I just copied ? In some cases, yes. But not all. Some use the basis to build upon.

But again...Do most rappers do that at least?

I gave a chance to Public Enemy already.

DB4 - Just saying that our presence in the time line, i.e. today, the present, right here right now; means that we can't foretell what music will still be listened to in a century, much less a decade or two. Some of our prog gods may well become as acclaimed as Bach, Beethoven & BTO. Arguing about it will have no effect. I was going to use the New Kids on the Block as an example of "15 minutes of mega fame", but I've heard they're getting together for a reunion tour. To which I say " WHERE ARE THE BAY CITY ROLLERS ?"

Well, Boys bands are part of the probblem, they never wrote anything, I don't know if they really sung in their their public shows or were dubbed (more boys bands that you would believe still do that), so they are maybe one step beyond the rappers, but this doesn't mean too much.

In summary, for all we know, in 2112, Garth Brooks lives on and becomes the Iconic Country musician, and not Johnny Cash. And maybe Creed's 40 million albums sold will fetch more than 50 cents at pawn shops someday. All I know is that it won't matter to me, 'cause I'll likely smell kinda funny after a few years in the ground.
Oh, and I know that Klaatu & Ange will be eventually regarded as highly by music scholars as I strongly believe that I couldn't be wrong about my objective admiration for their music.

We are just guessing.

Iván

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Posted: April 17 2008 at 22:34

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

debrewguy wrote:

DB3 - True, Rap may be considered to have some touches from R & B, mostly the importance of rhythm. Much of the melody in old R & B has been compared to black gospel singers, at least as far as the emotion. True, your stereotypical rap is not strong on melody, but Hip Hop does have its' fair share. Lauryn Hill can hardly be said to be a rapper, but her music is associated with hip hop. Of course, prog haters could point to neo-prog, folk prog, and a few other subgenre and rightly proclaim (and also rightly be debated) that true "progression" came to an end quite early in the genre's history, and that these genres aren't really "prog" .

It's not my sttereotypical Rap, it's the Rap we listen in all the radios, TV, everywhere, thousands opf bands have gained that credit. And I'm glad you admit that Rap has only touches of R&B as have touches of anything

Again, Lauren Hill may be an exception to the thoousands of rappers out there

BTW: Prog haters don't know ProgressiveRock doesn't need to progress.

DB4-Just keep in mind that there is an underground hip hop scene, and many acts that are not featured on radio or TV. I don't follow it, I sometimes read some reviews in Exclaim. And it seems to those who would better than either of us, that there is something more to Rap than bling, Hos, and Excess machismo. But, just as some of our fave prog acts have a devoted, but small following, there are Hip Hop artists who, at best, are making a career, a living if you will, while putting out good Hip Hop music.
If we relied on Radio and TV to describe prog, it would be limited to fancy fairy Tolkien inspired lyrics (Yes & early Rush), folksy oblique commentary (Tull, Strawbs), dark self centered anger (Waters' Floyd, Tool), pop with orchestra (Moody Blues) and not much else. We both know that this would not even begin to show but the slightest glimmer of the diamond that the prog scene was, is & hopefully will continue to be. And yes, prog-haters will use the same approach to ripping on prog. Focus on the stereotypes, over-emphasize the excesses, and avoid having to admit the actual breadth that the genre encompasses.

It's fun whan you use the hidden aces from your sleeve: you said:

Do the names Steve Reich & Stockhausen ring a few bells ?

Good tactic, you only mention Reich and Stockhausen in the same context as samplers, leaving the door open for any casual reader to believe they are the same thing, but at the same time you don't mention what relation is there betweem the musicians and the samplers, just in case anybody proves you they are doing a radically different thing, very clever.

Yes DB, but the two mentioned composers used the tape as an instrument, because they altered the content of the tape, Rap normally doesn't do that, only reproduces what is already done and support it with a high bass and percussion.
DB4 - actually, the reference is one I picked up from a PBS show. It was a BBC show that traced the development in 20th century "serious" music. The MC, who spoke a very high class Queen's English, mentioned some of the avant-garde composers in the 50s who were playing with this new "technology", the recording tape. He followed through with Steve Reich (which is where I picked up my interest in this music, I think it was "Trains" ???) on to the early 80s New York rappers, from the LPs on a phonograph, to today's digital editing technology. I would not dare compare most of the sampling done in Rap to the afore mentioned composers. But would you agree that there might be a few Hip Hop artists out there (unfortunately, not enjoying the immense mainstream success that lesser, heck, no talented rappers have) that are making artistically valid music using these same techniques ? Again, the commercially successful may not represent the best in Hip Hop. Just the most profitable.

But Much Rap deserves its' overly derivative label as too often their samples are taken and used without any alteration. I enjoyed Puff Daddy and Jimmy Page's collaboration on the Godzilla soundtrack. But it won't enjoy the same shelf life as Kashmir. And yes, frankly, there are too many acts in the genres who rely on well known "hits" to just write new "lyrics" over the song.

We agree there (only from..."And yes frankly...")

That has been done even in Clasical music, but theydon't use tapes THEY PERFORM AND MAKE CHANGES ON THAT MUSIC, WHILE RAP ONLY REPRODUCES.
DB4 - Some of the compositions have used tape manipulations. and yes, a lot of Rap on mainstream radio and TV reproduces. But again, the big $$$ stars should be held as the rule for the Hip Hop Genre.

How many prog lyricists used classic poetry or verse as a basis for their lyrics ? Even considering that many did so unconsciously, we hardly dismiss a piece just because it sounds like a variation of an 18th century string quartet. If Steve Howe & Jon Anderson were getting into Villa Lobos at the same time, and that it may have shown in their music, I'm not the one to denigrate them as being unoriginal rip-off artists. I'd be the one going " hmm I think I like/dislike this song/tune/piece"

Using Classic poetry for their lyrics is a totally different issue DG and you know it, would you say Los Jaivas plagiarized Pablo Neruda? No they blend two different arts into one.
DB4- Public Enemy used some of MAlcom X's words. Heroes of Hiphocracy redid Gil Scott-Heron's the Revolution will not be televised into "Television, the drug of a Nation". The point being that one's culture , poetry or verse has often served as a basis for inspiration. But again, using the best & brightest as an example for your side (as I did with Reich) and highlighting the worst from the other side to validate your (or my) arguement is not an objective way to judge its' quality. I'm sure that there must be some prog bands, whose music and or lyrics, are inane or downright rotten. Peart's lyrics from 2112 were said by some in the punk movement to be Fascist in nature. Of course, most of them had no idea who Ayn Rand was, and for the most part, as many do, never bothered to actually listen to them all and get the whole picture. Then take that opinion, and apply it to the worst quality heavy metal or prog, and one can easily build up a Potemkin village of an arguement.

DB3 - The Beatles needed no "virtuosos" for Hey Jude/Mother Nature's Son/Revolution/She Loves You/Help/With a Little Help From My Friends. There may musical genius at work, but virtuosity is not necessary. There are occasions that orchestral players were brought in, but I don't remember any of these admittedly accomplished players as being considered virtuosos amongst their ilk. The Beatles didn't need Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, Jimi Hendrix or any other 60s guitar god to make their music great. But all three made great music of their own because of their talents on guitar. This is not to say that virtuosity is not important. There has been, is & will always be music where virtuosity is necessary to convey the music properly. But the composition is the important part. Or to put it in a more colloquial manner - you can't shine sh*t.

A real artist is able to create art using whatever instruments and performers he wants, the music by Lennon & McCartney or Harrison was so good that it had it's own bright, but if you attempt to do great Prog, you need virtuoso musicians (at least in most cases).

A genre as Rock doesn't always nevesarilly needs virtuoso musicians, but imagine how great would The Beatles had been if they were also virtuoso musicians.
DB4 - For any music, you need good musicians. But good, that would mean in the talent dept, not necessarily the technical skills. Many a teenage guitar sensation can out play Robert Johnson. None has managed to make music for the ages as Monsieur J has.
And , (this one's for you T) if the Beatles had also been been virtuoso musos, would they have been Dream Theater

DB3 - Mention Queen - you know the bassline from Another One Bites the Dust is taken from the Sugarhill Gang. That part of the lyrics from the Beatles Come Together are
lifted from a few Chuck Berry tunes; that some claim that Deep Purple's Child in Time was a direct rip from an It's a Beautiful Day song. Indeed, Blackmore has publicly stated that the guitar line in Black Night is just the bass line from a Ricky Nelson song from the early 60s ( I would need to verify the title).

Queen had at least 100 songs and you mention one, The Beatles had even more, Deep Purple has a lot of albums, so in heir case is abn EXCEPTION, but sampling is a general rule in Rap, and they don't even perform the song, they play the album.

What's the difference with guys playing a record and adding one rhythm pattern and Milly Vanilly, I guess almost nothing.

Again, dealing with the stereotypes, with the acts currently on top is too easy. As an example that is common at PA, neo-prog & prog metal , especially the Dream Theater clones are easy targets for those who scorn the genres, and can easily pick out a hundred bands that, according to them, are merely banal copyists that play their genre by the numbersso as to "enjoy" the massive commercial success that Marillion and DT have (sarcasm, I think that Petrucci's mother dresses him funny).

The difference is that they are some cases of cloning among a big universe of original artists, in the case of Rap, you have to dig hours to find something valuable, that until now, I haven't found.

Nobody said Prog is perfect, there are good, average and bad bands, but in the case of Rap, 99% of what you listen (unless youu're an expert and know where to dig) is just thesame thing.
DB4- Anyone for Zeuhl ? Magma I couldn't get into. ANd they were said to be the kings. the creators of Zeuhl. Then I got Dun - Eros. Dun is Zeuhl ? But I don't like Zeuhl ! At least I thought I didn't ... Anyone for Neo-Prog ? Derivative, glossy, pablum for the prog challenged ? I got into IQ. Marillion ... iffy, I couldn't see Fish being as good as they said. Clutching at Straws ... then I go back to Script, Fugazi ... aaaahhh. But wait, what ... Hogarth ... nah ... again ... prejudices ... I read a review from Gatot, I think. Never mind what you think prog or Marillion should be ... just listen. Aaaaahhhhh, Brave .... Marbles .... AAAAHHH. Yeah, I can see why Marillion still is held in high esteem by many prog fans.
But Neo-Prog as a genre ??? So far, and this is admittedly based on MP3 streaming here and elsewhere, the other flag bearers of Neo have not caused the same reaction. So, 2 bands out of how many Neo-prog acts here at PA ? I am not an expert on Rap. I stumbled onto Public Enemy, and albums 2 through to 5 are great. The Roots, so far have put out a good string. Some acts have been one hit wonders, rather like some of our beloved prog Italian bands. Dream Warriors debut was very good, with only 2-3 songs that were formulaic. None of the songs, though, included anything close to the mysogenistic, materialistic, and moronic word play generally held to be the Rap stereotype. Same with Arrested Development's debut. Give their single Mr Wendel a listen if you can. Very interesting social commentary without bring preachy or "speechy". The Beastie Boys middle period albums are a veritable treasure trove of genre mish mashes. Jazz beats and instrumental parts, sound & tape manipulations, master works what Rap can be when done by artists. Yes, I used that elitist word in association with 3 white NY boys who stole a previously black art form. The aforementioned Heroes of Hiphopcracy, with lyrics that stand with the best as cultural critique of American consumer society.
Then, we have 50 cent, Biggie, thissie and thatie, and abunch more that rely on Gangsta image and tough guy image, and mucho interbreeding, I mean, guest stars , to hype their product. So yes, there is bad rap. I think there is bad prog.

Yes, the stereotype is often well deserved, but then, in this media overkill environment, any commercially successful thing will soon generate clones. Check movies, tv shows, music, books, magazines, websites et al ... if one starts generating major moolah, you can bet there will be more than a few enterprising businessmen looking to get in while the getting's good. For the general public, that has meant that too often quality entertainment or art is overlooked because it is not part of that day's hot trend, while the imitators get endlessly foisted on us.

Then we agree, this is not the best thing.
DB4 - not to say that some imitators are a guilty pleasure. Neuwachstein are not Genesis, but they still merit a regular spin in my CD player. I can't say that Starcastle mean much to me, but even derided as a Yes clone, they had their fans back in the day.

DB3- Compare Outkast to Gnarls Barkley to 50 Cent to Public Enemy to the Roots, to Kanye to Eminem to Lauryn Hill to Wyclef jean. Personnally , I can only talk about Outkast, G Barkley & PE. But there is a variety there. Once more, it should be noted that Rap is a division of Hip Hop. What Hip Hop actually is,

well ... we're still fighting as to what prog actually is, eh

I don't find a noticeable difference to be honest.

As far as some of the descriptions, Krautrock is often described as repetitive drone-like

Probably by people who doesn't know Kraut and ignores the Psychedelic and jamming base of it.
DB4 - Er, do you mean that it's ok to be repetitive if it's psychedelic and jam based ?

Avant-Garde isn't' usually noted for melody,

There is a strong melodic sense in Avant Garde, the problem is that thecontrolled cacophony and blending of simultaneus melodies overlaid one over the other confuses people not ready for the complexity (I'm one of them BTW). Avant mixes too many elements so it's hard to be understood,
DB4 - Er, I mean melody , like, can you hum it ? And some aren't even, or don't seem to be blending anything resembling a melody.

Raga/Indo doesn't really stray too far from its' origins,

I never believed in genres based in geographic bases.
DB4 - I believe that if more people here at PA listened to it, we'd just get more negative reviews

Psych/Space is often pedestrian unless you're a fan.

Sorry, but in this case you are saying a blasphemy, Psyche is based in the exploration of different melodies and influences, there's jamming of course but if you listen real Psyche bands as Elmetr Gantry's Velvet Opera, Sweetater, The Doors, Jefferson Airplabne, early Pink Floyd, you can claim anything except they sound pedestrian.
DB4- The Doors, except for one or two songs, actually had some structure to their work. I like some of it. Indeed, one of my favourite XTC albums is the compilation of their Dukes of the Stratosphear albums. I like some of the Love tunes, JA, and many of the so-called nuggets of the 60s. But, as with all genres, a lot of it is not exactly, er ... good. Pedestrian, to me, would be when a band seems, or sounds like they're just going through the motions, or really just putting out songs according to a strict formula, i.e. no personality of their own, or any at all. Mind you, to turn your arguement around here, a few good bands do not make for an interesting genre.

The point being that the non-fan, of any genre, usually doesn't find the supposed variety that others do. Play Genesis, Grobschnitt, Marillion, or King Crimson, Gentle Giant and Anglagard, and most non-proggers, say specifically a country music fan, will not see what the big deal is, or what, if any, differences exist between the acts. (please allow me to probably not have picked the best example, eh).

I played my music to hundreeds of persons and even though the vast majority doesmn't like most of it, they can easily notice the difference between Genesis, Yes, Kansas, ELP, PFM or Anglagard without any problem,

Probably they won't be able to find the big deal, but I haven't heard a person say it's repetive, boring or lack of musicianship, most say it's too complex for them, but that's all..
DB4 - Yes, admittedly, if someone is taking the time or making the effort, they may see a difference. But, in my experience, they might hear a difference between bands, but not enough to say, oh that's not the band you just played yesterday, that's another group. As a matter of fact, none of my friends can tell the difference between any of the Italian bands I have (40 + and counting). They like some of it, and some others, it just sounds the same. As I outweigh them, and love to argue (who knew) they prefer the latter comment to saying it's boring

As for digging through crap to find the diamond, well ... what genre can claim to deserve that.

Not thecase of Prog, again most people say it's complex or self indulgent, but crap only fanatics
DB4 - I've yet to have a friend say that they disliked a band for those reasons. Mostly, it came down to - "I don't care for the music/songs/arrangements" . They have used the same comments for their dislike of Rap. Although I have been able to sneak a few songs in that caught them by surprise. Same as with prog.

Remember the big fracas over the prog metal sub-divisions, with many posts loudly declaring that Metal in all its' forms, as if it had more than the one noisy screeching guitar stype, had no relation at all to prog.

Not correct DB I am one of those wh is not sure if that division is required, but not because all is the same, only for a fundamental reason, we are over dividing some genres that have a common structure.
DB4-My point was not the division, just that some could not get past the loud guitars. At least that was my general conclusion after reading the threads. It reminded me of the old rock n roll call to arms "If it's too loud, you're too f**king old".

What all it came down to, was that those folks just had no tolerance for loud distorted guitars. And so, had no interest in going through the most miniscule amount of music to even try to see the Prog aspects that others claimed existed. Then you have Avastin that raves about Dun AND Death.

That's only taste.
DB4 - Yes, but remember that those who argued the most thought they were applying objective criteria, instead of using music they considered prog as THE example of what prog was exactly. I posted the comment that they should just try and replace the loud guitars with mellotrons and Hammond organs (in their mind's ear, so to speak) and see if some prog metal bands might be of interest to them.

Again you're cheating, you said:

Ex-friends of mine said they hated rap, cause they were not singing. I asked them if they liked Lou Reed, to which they said YEAH !. But Lou Reed, at best, does talking blues as a singing style, eh ..

You practically said Lou Reed was rapping, now you say it's only an example, you seem to be taking some more cards from your sleeve.

BTW: Loosing friends for their musical taste? I wouldn't go so far.
DB4- Actually, the two were one ex from my wife's friend , and his best friend. No great loss. They thought that Sid Vicious was a hero who represented all that was great about punk and anti-establishmentarianism. This despite Sid's best friend, a Mr Lydon who said that Sid's arrival signaled the end of their band, and whose image also foreshadowed the codification of what was supposed to be all about being yourself.
As for singing, well, I'm the one who persevered in playing Bon Scott's albums with AC/DC while most were still claiming that Only Back IN Black was worth listening too. Took me 6 months. Haven't heard a Brian booster since then, to the point where I'm his defender.
And for Lou Reed, he's not the only singer who can be said to "sing" in a nothing more than a talking voice. His voice suits his music. Same as Bon Scott. If Bon had tried to sing Bohemian Rapshody, then that would be a problem (ever hear of Bad News)

Lou Reed does not really sing. Or at least cannot be said to have a "singing" voice. I love some of his work. New York is as good Basic guitar based rock n roll album as anything out there. As for musical elements,

He doesn't have a great singuing voice, but even when his style is coloquial, he's singing, he's not repeating thesame phrase over and over with two basic chords, there's a huuuuge difference.
DB4 - In a very limited range. Dylan's classic All Along the Watchtower is only two chords. With a third and fourth added by Hendrix.

if I twist pre-recorded sound, whether it's one note or a looped sequence, I still am playing a note.

And the "couple of chords" note - Ray Davies has been said to be doomed to second tier status compared to many of his British musical peers due to the limited musical pallette used in the Kinks' songs. Yet, I can't really see why Something Else, Arthur, Muswell Hillbillies, and a few other Kinks opuses are not rated on par with Sgt Pepper, Abbey Road, Beggars Banquet, Zep anything, Dylan, et al.

You say well if you TWIST or in other words, you modify a recorded tape, but samplers (most of them) don't do this (at least no one I heard), they simply play in a turntable a couple of catchy chords with no modification done by real artists and add artificial rhythm.

As for repetition, well do you see how we could stretch that & include this

No sir, electronic treatments and sound manipulation is forcing an electronic instrument to the extreme, and minimalist approach is only a part of Kraut.

DB4- You simply must give a listen to Public Enemy's "Fear of a Black Planet" & "Apocalypse 91 ... The Enemy Strikes Black". There are guitar parts in there that would make an Avant-Gardist proud, there are keyboard notes that clang in off beats as accents to lyrics, and much much sound manipulation. Please note , though, this is not your mainstream 50 Cent type of Rap. This is music, not business.

My point, and I'm sure I have one somewhere in here, is that why not save time and say you can't see any value in this music, and just don't enjoy any of it, to the point of having no interest in even trying.

Honestly I tried, I used to get anything that was recommended as good eperimental Rap, and always was disappointed.
DB4 - No, I mean those who dismiss it, but have not put anymore effort than our beloved prog haters. And btw, when I see the word experimental, I wonder if they mean the band didn't know what they were doing or trying to do.

Most, if not all comments made are easily transferred to all other genres, including prog.
The difference is that Rap is currently enjoying a commercial heyday, in the charts at least, as very very few acts can translate that to concert tickets.
So let's console ourselves with the realistic possibility that more of our prog idols' music than rappers (not hip hop, just Rap) will last for the ages, just as Bach, Beethoven & the boys ; just as Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Oscar Peterson's has; just as Robert Johnson, Son House, Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker and BB King continue to.
But remember that in their time, there were generally hundreds if not thousands of other musicians/composers whose work has not survived to our day. And, that in some cases, some of it was actually popular or well known back then.
Rap will throw up (I'm setting you up with a great line there) some. Which ones ? No one knows and won't for another century. Today's charts are merely a measure of ephemeral mainstream fame. They neither reflect nor claim any objective measure of talent or genius, just $$$, units moved.
Now Mind you, that's not a bad thing. Styx, BTO, Yes, Tull, and more than a few other too easily derided groups enjoyed commercial success in their day, and still have many of their songs that form part of a common musical bond between many people. Unfortunately, this has not happened yet for Klaatu & Ange. But only time will tell, and I for one will keep telling the world that Klaatu & Ange will be eventually rewarded with the high regard that is so clearly deserved as determined by myself.

Sorry, but you lost me here
DB4 - Just saying that our presence in the time line, i.e. today, the present, right here right now; means that we can't foretell what music will still be listened to in a century, much less a decade or two. Some of our prog gods may well become as acclaimed as Bach, Beethoven & BTO. Arguing about it will have no effect. I was going to use the New Kids on the Block as an example of "15 minutes of mega fame", but I've heard they're getting together for a reunion tour. To which I say " WHERE ARE THE BAY CITY ROLLERS ?"
In summary, for all we know, in 2112, Garth Brooks lives on and becomes the Iconic Country musician, and not Johnny Cash. And maybe Creed's 40 million albums sold will fetch more than 50 cents at pawn shops someday. All I know is that it won't matter to me, 'cause I'll likely smell kinda funny after a few years in the ground.
Oh, and I know that Klaatu & Ange will be eventually regarded as highly by music scholars as I strongly believe that I couldn't be wrong about my objective admiration for their music.

END OF CHEOPS QUOTE PYRAMID

That's why I made the base of the pyramid shorter. ..

Iván
DB4 - You're lucky the Habs played a sucky game (lost 5-1 to the Bruins). If they'd won, I'd be flying.
DB

P.S. Does not !

"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

lucas

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Posted: April 17 2008 at 17:41

And the winner is...

No, sincerely, Ivan and DBGuy, your knowledge of music surpasses me !

"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: April 15 2008 at 00:40

Again, Lauren Hill may be an exception to the thoousands of rappers out there

BTW: Prog haters don't know ProgressiveRock doesn't need to progress.

It's fun whan you use the hidden aces from your sleeve: you said:

Do the names Steve Reich & Stockhausen ring a few bells ?

We agree there (only from..."And yes frankly...")

That has been done even in Clasical music, but theydon't use tapes THEY PERFORM AND MAKE CHANGES ON THAT MUSIC, WHILE RAP ONLY REPRODUCES.

Using Classic poetry for their lyrics is a totally different issue DG and you know it, would you say Los Jaivas plagiarized Pablo Neruda? No they blend two different arts into one.

A genre as Rock doesn't always nevesarilly needs virtuoso musicians, but imagine how great would The Beatles had been if they were also virtuoso musicians.

DB3 - Mention Queen - you know the bassline from Another One Bites the Dust is taken from the Sugarhill Gang. That part of the lyrics from the Beatles Come Together are
lifted from a few Chuck Berry tunes; that some claim that Deep Purple's Child in Time was a direct rip from an It's a Beautiful Day song. Indeed, Blackmore has publicly stated that the guitar line in Black Night is just the bass line from a Ricky Nelson song from the early 60s ( I would need to verify the title).

What's the difference with guys playing a record and adding one rhythm pattern and Milly Vanilly, I guess almost nothing.

Nobody said Prog is perfect, there are good, average and bad bands, but in the case of Rap, 99% of what you listen (unless youu're an expert and know where to dig) is just thesame thing.

Then we agree, this is not the best thing.

well ... we're still fighting as to what prog actually is, eh

I don't find a noticeable difference to be honest.

As far as some of the descriptions, Krautrock is often described as repetitive drone-like

Probably by people who doesn't know Kraut and ignores the Psychedelic and jamming base of it.

Avant-Garde isn't' usually noted for melody,

Raga/Indo doesn't really stray too far from its' origins,

I never believed in genres based in geographic bases.

Psych/Space is often pedestrian unless you're a fan.

Probably they won't be able to find the big deal, but I haven't heard a person say it's repetive, boring or lack of musicianship, most say it's too complex for them, but that's all..

As for digging through crap to find the diamond, well ... what genre can claim to deserve that.

Not thecase of Prog, again most people say it's complex or self indulgent, but crap only fanatics

Again you're cheating, you said:

You practically said Lou Reed was rapping, now you say it's only an example, you seem to be taking some more cards from your sleeve.

BTW: Loosing friends for their musical taste? I wouldn't go so far.

He doesn't have a great singuing voice, but even when his style is coloquial, he's singing, he's not repeating thesame phrase over and over with two basic chords, there's a huuuuge difference.

if I twist pre-recorded sound, whether it's one note or a looped sequence, I still am playing a note.

As for repetition, well do you see how we could stretch that & include this

No sir, electronic treatments and sound manipulation is forcing an electronic instrument to the extreme, and minimalist approach is only a part of Kraut.

My point, and I'm sure I have one somewhere in here, is that why not save time and say you can't see any value in this music, and just don't enjoy any of it, to the point of having no interest in even trying.

Honestly I tried, I used to get anything that was recommended as good eperimental Rap, and always was disappointed.

Sorry, but you lost me here

END OF CHEOPS QUOTE PYRAMID

That's why I made the base of the pyramid shorter. ..

Iván

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Posted: April 14 2008 at 20:34

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

debrewguy wrote:

Iván in pink You can find touches of everything in Rap and Hip Hop, specially when sampling, but Rap essentially is not related with Blues based music as R&B, which is mainly melodic with strong rhythhms.

Rap is not essentially melodic, of course people will jump and say X rapper has great melodies or Y rapper has some Prog elements, but those (if real) are the exceptions tro the rule.

DB3 - True, Rap may be considered to have some touches from R & B, mostly the importance of rhythm. Much of the melody in old R & B has been compared to black gospel singers, at least as far as the emotion. True, your stereotypical rap is not strong on melody, but Hip Hop does have its' fair share. Lauryn Hill can hardly be said to be a rapper, but her music is associated with hip hop. Of course, prog haters could point to neo-prog, folk prog, and a few other subgenre and rightly proclaim (and also rightly be debated) that true "progression" came to an end quite early in the genre's history, and that these genres aren't really "prog" .

Do the names Steve Reich & Stockhausen ring a few bells ?

LB : I have the same aversion for them as for Rap.
DB2 - My point was just that Rappers were not the only "musicians" to use the technique.

Lets see:

Steve Reich: It's hard to compare Reich with the sampling in RAP; Eeich used different techniques like Augmentation (He ttook a fragment and altered it making some phases larger) he also added tape recorded material BUT AS ADDITIONAL INSTRUMENTS TO COMPLEMENT A SOLOIST, so his music has no relation with sampling, he added extra instruments to a determined pieve he was playing, of courde some of his works as Come Out (1966) are simply absurd.

Stockhausen on the other hand is the creator of Mathematical Composition, in which the timing of a pre-recorded fragment IS ALTERED using a mathematical formula.

Normally the Rapper simply adds a pre-reciorded tape WITH NO MODIFICATIONS OR PARTICULAR TECHNIQUE, and add a peripherical rhythm, that's all

There's no comparison with thei musicians (like them or not) and sampling in Rap.

DB3 - the comparison was not meant to mean that (Most) rap should or could be taken as seriously as the noted composers. That they used taped or recorded sound and manipulated it comes to the same point. Whether I loop a James Brown beat, or the sound of a subway train, I am using samples. And whether I use a mathematical formula or digital editing, morph or mutate that sound, I am still using pre-recorded sound to "compose" new material. But Much Rap deserves its' overly derivative label as too often their samples are taken and used without any alteration. I enjoyed Puff Daddy and Jimmy Page's collaboration on the Godzilla soundtrack. But it won't enjoy the same shelf life as Kashmir. And yes, frankly, there are too many acts in the genres who rely on well known "hits" to just write new "lyrics" over the song.

Now there is one point to make here - rock n roll, including prog, is not innocent of plagiarizing/stealing/ or the mildest descriptor - lifting from other songs or musical acts. How many prog acts just played Bach pieces on electric instruments ? How many prog lyricists used classic poetry or verse as a basis for their lyrics ? Even considering that many did so unconsciously, we hardly dismiss a piece just because it sounds like a variation of an 18th century string quartet. If Steve Howe & Jon Anderson were getting into Villa Lobos at the same time, and that it may have shown in their music, I'm not the one to denigrate them as being unoriginal rip-off artists. I'd be the one going " hmm I think I like/dislike this song/tune/piece"

LB : you can't deny they delivered something outstanding (for the time they produced their music) and marked their era.
DB2 - I love the Beatles. I also love the fact that as average musicians, they showed that ultimately, virtuosity is not that important.

Sorry, but virtuosism is always important, the virtuosism of The Beatles was mainly in the composition, John Paul and George managed to create music spevcifically for guitars, bass and drums, but when they required virtuopsism they hired musiciabns as in Eleanor Rigby, Sgt Peppers or Let it Be.

DB3 - The Beatles needed no "virtuosos" for Hey Jude/Mother Nature's Son/Revolution/She Loves You/Help/With a Little Help From My Friends. There may musical genius at work, but virtuosity is not necessary. There are occasions that orchestral players were brought in, but I don't remember any of these admittedly accomplished players as being considered virtuosos amongst their ilk. The Beatles didn't need Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, Jimi Hendrix or any other 60s guitar god to make their music great. But all three made great music of their own because of their talents on guitar. This is not to say that virtuosity is not important. There has been, is & will always be music where virtuosity is necessary to convey the music properly. But the composition is the important part. Or to put it in a more colloquial manner - you can't shine sh*t.

LB : in order to be a rapper, you have to be angry against society and speak without making a break during your whole speech. Well, it's true you have to train for this latter point...
DB2 - as some prog lyrics are essentially stream of consciousness, some rap is also made up on the spot. The old bluesmen often also had that ability to make up the words on the spot. As far as anger against society, most musical genres have their share of angry young (and not so young) men & women. I agree with you on the bling bling aspect. That was something that I was happy when grunge killed off the hair metal bands. It seemed that none of them lived like their fans.

No as Rap Debrewguy, Rap is essentially misoginysr, bviolent, apologetic of crimes, racist and vulgar, the exceptions are on theother side. It's funny to see a black guy in a Beemer with 50 Kgms of gold shouting how unfair society is with him.

It was stolen, but this doesn't stopped a "Rap producer" top steal the stolen rights from him using a gun and haging him from a balcony.

DB3 - Mention Queen - you know the bassline from Another One Bites the Dust is taken from the Sugarhill Gang. That part of the lyrics from the Beatles Come Together are
lifted from a few Chuck Berry tunes; that some claim that Deep Purple's Child in Time was a direct rip from an It's a Beautiful Day song. Indeed, Blackmore has publicly stated that the guitar line in Black Night is just the bass line from a Ricky Nelson song from the early 60s ( I would need to verify the title).
Again, dealing with the stereotypes, with the acts currently on top is too easy. As an example that is common at PA, neo-prog & prog metal , especially the Dream Theater clones are easy targets for those who scorn the genres, and can easily pick out a hundred bands that, according to them, are merely banal copyists that play their genre by the numbersso as to "enjoy" the massive commercial success that Marillion and DT have (sarcasm, I think that Petrucci's mother dresses him funny).
Yes, the stereotype is often well deserved, but then, in this media overkill environment, any commercially successful thing will soon generate clones. Check movies, tv shows, music, books, magazines, websites et al ... if one starts generating major moolah, you can bet there will be more than a few enterprising businessmen looking to get in while the getting's good. For the general public, that has meant that too often quality entertainment or art is overlooked because it is not part of that day's hot trend, while the imitators get endlessly foisted on us.

[quote]

DB2 - I think an arguement could be made that the diversity in prog, or at least what many include in that genre is due to the lumping together of many genres that share a progressive bent. Krautrock, jazz fusion, raga, prog metal, all could be argued away as not belonging to a very strict "prog" definition. Though it is not an point that I would agree with.

There's more diversity inside EVERY sub genre individually, you get symphonic and you have members of the same band playing radically different material, just compare, Wakeman solo with Yes music or Peter Gabriel, Steve Hackett solo works with Genesis, they all were part of the same band, but the diversity is incredible.

Listen for example Abbhama, Delige Grandeur, Shadow Circus, Triana, etc, all are Symphonic, but have very little in coimmon except the basic structure.

On the other hand Rap is normally repetitrive, lack of melody and with stroong wmphasis in the thytmic parts, of course there will be somebody who will 2 or 3 examples of supposedlly versatile Rappers, but you can easily take 500 turning radios on to prove it's monotonous and lack of melody.

For my part, I'm not ready to dig imn mountains of crap to find a diamond, so rare that until now I haven't heard one.

DB3- Compare Outkast to Gnarls Barkley to 50 Cent to Public Enemy to the Roots, to Kanye to Eminem to Lauryn Hill to Wyclef jean. Personnally , I can only talk about Outkast, G Barkley & PE. But there is a variety there. Once more, it should be noted that Rap is a division of Hip Hop. What Hip Hop actually is, well ... we're still fighting as to what prog actually is, eh
As far as some of the descriptions, Krautrock is often described as repetitive drone-like Avant-Garde isn't' usually noted for melody, Raga/Indo doesn't really stray too far from its' origins, Psych/Space is often pedestrian unless you're a fan. The point being that the non-fan, of any genre, usually doesn't find the supposed variety that others do. Play Genesis, Grobschnitt, Marillion, or King Crimson, Gentle Giant and Anglagard, and most non-proggers, say specifically a country music fan, will not see what the big deal is, or what, if any, differences exist between the acts. (please allow me to probably not have picked the best example, eh).
As for digging through crap to find the diamond, well ... what genre can claim to deserve that. Remember the big fracas over the prog metal sub-divisions, with many posts loudly declaring that Metal in all its' forms, as if it had more than the one noisy screeching guitar stype, had no relation at all to prog. What all it came down to, was that those folks just had no tolerance for loud distorted guitars. And so, had no interest in going through the most miniscule amount of music to even try to see the Prog aspects that others claimed existed. Then you have Avastin that raves about Dun AND Death.

.[quote]LB : I know the Roots, one of the rare rap bands to use instruments, but that doesn't make them "better" than the other ones. Never hooked on Public Enemy or Beastie Boys (well, maybe the punk-hardcore era of the latter, when I was a kid of course). There are always bands that stand out of the crowd, but all those "spoken" vocals make you tired after two or three tunes. I mean you can't listen to a whole rap record for your pleasure, it's a music to dance (breakdance), nothing else.

DB2- If I may offer an explanation - most people will give you the same "excuse" for not liking this or that type of music. An altcountry music fan will be able to explain the differences between Lucinda Williams & Faith Hill. Some of us might not even care to get beyond the word "country". In the 80s, I recall a lot of the 70s hard rockers assiduously distancing themselves from the tag "metal". Some felt it was limiting description when it came to attracting fans. So AC/DC topped Kerrang's first top 100 metal songs of all time poll in 1981, but I never read or heard the Young boys agree with it. They see themselves as a rock n roll band. Not a ROCK band, but Rock AND Roll, Chuck Berry like.

In brief, it should come down to saying that I like, love, or loathe a type of music. But qualifying it as good or bad music is a bit much. Ex-friends of mine said they hated rap, cause they were not singing. I asked them if they liked Lou Reed, to which they said YEAH !. But Lou Reed, at best, does talking blues as a singing style, eh ......

Plñease Debrewguy, you can't compare Lou Reed with Rap, just because his style of singing is almost spoken, I could mention people like Jim Morrison, Mark Knopfler, Roger Waters or Van Morrison, who almost speak, but there the melody and all the musical elements are provoided by the instruments.

Rap is generaly over placing some fast talking over a repetive chord or couple of chords sith no relation between them. There are two different species.

Iván

DB3 - No No. The Lou Reed example was just a point that I used in an arguement with some ex-friends. They justified their hatred (as if there aren't better things in the world to expend such emotional energy than music) of Rap by saying that it was not singing. Lou Reed does not really sing. Or at least cannot be said to have a "singing" voice. I love some of his work. New York is as good Basic guitar based rock n roll album as anything out there. As for musical elements, if I twist pre-recorded sound, whether it's one note or a looped sequence, I still am playing a note. And the "couple of chords" note - Ray Davies has been said to be doomed to second tier status compared to many of his British musical peers due to the limited musical pallette used in the Kinks' songs. Yet, I can't really see why Something Else, Arthur, Muswell Hillbillies, and a few other Kinks opuses are not rated on par with Sgt Pepper, Abbey Road, Beggars Banquet, Zep anything, Dylan, et al.

As for repetition, well do you see how we could stretch that & include this

"Krautrock (also called “Kosmische musik”) is a German avant-garde / experimental rock movement that emerged at the end of the 1960’s. It was intended to go beyond the eccentricities developed by the wild psychedelic rock universe of the US, by giving a special emphasis to electronic treatments, sound manipulation and minimal hypnotic motifs (continuing the style of “musique concrete” and minimalist repetitive music but within a more accessible environment)."
now of course, no one on this thread has seen to or been able to use such academic verbiage to describe rap. But electronic rteatments/sound manipulation = Y'all jus' messing wid da samples, man, bit s n pieces bent to fit da beat, bro. And the fun one could have trying to explain the difference between minimalist repetitive music and strongly repetitive with emphasis on the rhythm.

My point, and I'm sure I have one somewhere in here, is that why not save time and say you can't see any value in this music, and just don't enjoy any of it, to the point of having no interest in even trying.
Most, if not all comments made are easily transferred to all other genres, including prog.
The difference is that Rap is currently enjoying a commercial heyday, in the charts at least, as very very few acts can translate that to concert tickets.
So let's console ourselves with the realistic possibility that more of our prog idols' music than rappers (not hip hop, just Rap) will last for the ages, just as Bach, Beethoven & the boys ; just as Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington, Oscar Peterson's has; just as Robert Johnson, Son House, Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker and BB King continue to.
But remember that in their time, there were generally hundreds if not thousands of other musicians/composers whose work has not survived to our day. And, that in some cases, some of it was actually popular or well known back then.
Rap will throw up (I'm setting you up with a great line there) some. Which ones ? No one knows and won't for another century. Today's charts are merely a measure of ephemeral mainstream fame. They neither reflect nor claim any objective measure of talent or genius, just $$$, units moved.
Now Mind you, that's not a bad thing. Styx, BTO, Yes, Tull, and more than a few other too easily derided groups enjoyed commercial success in their day, and still have many of their songs that form part of a common musical bond between many people. Unfortunately, this has not happened yet for Klaatu & Ange. But only time will tell, and I for one will keep telling the world that Klaatu & Ange will be eventually rewarded with the high regard that is so clearly deserved as determined by myself.

END OF CHEOPS QUOTE PYRAMID ...

For those who prefer the abbreviated version - here it goes
Rap Sucks.
No It Doesn't.
Does So !
Does Not !
DOES SO!
DOES NOT!

AD INFINITUM FOREVER AND EVER TO INFINITY AND BEYOND TO THE BEER STORE I'M GONE Smile

"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

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Posted: April 14 2008 at 18:47

debrewguy wrote:

Rap is not essentially melodic, of course people will jump and say X rapper has great melodies or Y rapper has some Prog elements, but those (if real) are the exceptions tro the rule.

Do the names Steve Reich & Stockhausen ring a few bells ?

LB : I have the same aversion for them as for Rap.
DB2 - My point was just that Rappers were not the only "musicians" to use the technique.

Lets see:

Steve Reich: It's hard to compare Reich with the sampling in RAP; Eeich used different techniques like Augmentation (He ttook a fragment and altered it making some phases larger) he also added tape recorded material BUT AS ADDITIONAL INSTRUMENTS TO COMPLEMENT A SOLOIST, so his music has no relation with sampling, he added extra instruments to a determined pieve he was playing, of courde some of his works as Come Out (1966) are simply absurd.
Stockhausen on the other hand is the creator of Mathematical Composition, in which the timing of a pre-recorded fragment IS ALTERED using a mathematical formula.
Normally the Rapper simply adds a pre-reciorded tape WITH NO MODIFICATIONS OR PARTICULAR TECHNIQUE, and add a peripherical rhythm, that's all

There's no comparison with thei musicians (like them or not) and sampling in Rap.

If you say this are stereotypes, probably, but they gained them at pulse, remember Mr. Van Winkle (Vanilla Ice) who stole a fragment from a Queen & Bowie song (Under Presure) to make his only real hit.

It was stolen, but this doesn't stopped a "Rap producer" top steal the stolen rights from him using a gun and haging him from a balcony.

Listen for example Abbhama, Delige Grandeur, Shadow Circus, Triana, etc, all are Symphonic, but have very little in coimmon except the basic structure.

For my part, I'm not ready to dig imn mountains of crap to find a diamond, so rare that until now I haven't heard one.

LB : I know the Roots, one of the rare rap bands to use instruments, but that doesn't make them "better" than the other ones. Never hooked on Public Enemy or Beastie Boys (well, maybe the punk-hardcore era of the latter, when I was a kid of course). There are always bands that stand out of the crowd, but all those "spoken" vocals make you tired after two or three tunes. I mean you can't listen to a whole rap record for your pleasure, it's a music to dance (breakdance), nothing else.

DB2- If I may offer an explanation - most people will give you the same "excuse" for not liking this or that type of music. An altcountry music fan will be able to explain the differences between Lucinda Williams & Faith Hill. Some of us might not even care to get beyond the word "country". In the 80s, I recall a lot of the 70s hard rockers assiduously distancing themselves from the tag "metal". Some felt it was limiting description when it came to attracting fans. So AC/DC topped Kerrang's first top 100 metal songs of all time poll in 1981, but I never read or heard the Young boys agree with it. They see themselves as a rock n roll band. Not a ROCK band, but Rock AND Roll, Chuck Berry like.

In brief, it should come down to saying that I like, love, or loathe a type of music. But qualifying it as good or bad music is a bit much. Ex-friends of mine said they hated rap, cause they were not singing. I asked them if they liked Lou Reed, to which they said YEAH !. But Lou Reed, at best, does talking blues as a singing style, eh ......

Rap is generaly over placing some fast talking over a repetive chord or couple of chords sith no relation between them. There are two different species.

Iván

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Posted: April 14 2008 at 13:45

lucas wrote:

debrewguy wrote:

lucas wrote:

[QUOTE=MHDTV]Since when does Rap not have instruments...To be fair it's mainly electronic but it requires just as much talent and creativity as a prog song (To make good rap that is).

Rap rules the music industry nowadays (r&b, dance and techno are all derivative of hip-hop),
db - Usually Lucas, if not always, something derives from an already existing thing. R & B has been around for several decades

LB : current R&B has nothing to do with what we call "rhythm & blues".
DB2- I wonder if you're confusing Dance music with R & B ? I don't mean this in a mean way, but there is actually good 7 true R & B music out there. It's just found much on the charts. I think Macy Gray might be one.

and if someone proves me rap is not made for money (just look at the videoclips : big villas, big cars, big busted bimbos) but requires talent to sample music and skills for turning a record left or right on a record-player, I don't believe in music anymore.

Do the names Steve Reich & Stockhausen ring a few bells ?

LB : I have the same aversion for them as for Rap.
DB2 - My point was just that Rappers were not the only "musicians" to use the technique.

Heck , I know of four young lads by the name of John, George, Paul & Ringo who were said to be easily surpassed by many lesser known virtuosos, but somehow managed to create a very fine body of work.

So please, if you dislike, or abhor Rap, just say so. But this attitude of "no talent required, no experience necessary, no value implied" towards an "art" form you don't enjoy is a bit much and is something that many here at PA decry at every chance when it comes to people demeaning progressive rock.

Lastly, remember, in any creative endeavour, there is usually the following divide - 5% great, 95% crap. And that includes prog.

LB : I never said prog is the ultimate form of music and consists of 100 % of masterpieces. For my part I reckon at least 50 % of it is crap (oops, I wrote that on a prog forum). But you must admit there is far more diversity in prog than in rap.

DB2 - I think an arguement could be made that the diversity in prog, or at least what many include in that genre is due to the lumping together of many genres that share a progressive bent. Krautrock, jazz fusion, raga, prog metal, all could be argued away as not belonging to a very strict "prog" definition. Though it is not an point that I would agree with.

For Rap, go & read or listen to groups like the Roots, Public Enemy, the Beastie Boys (yes, their debut has many puerile elements), and you may find that there are serious minded music lovers out there that can & have found something worthy of appreciation in this genre of music.

"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.

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Posted: April 13 2008 at 23:20

Progressive Rap has been mentioned ten times at least and all the threads have been closed, not because we are close minded, but because both genres represent the opposite side of the musical spectrum.

I'm talking about the lets say 95% of the Rap, not about the rare exceptions that nobody ever mentions.

Iván