Clouds/1-2-3

darqdean wrote: I am not totally convinced that the America recording is even "live". If this was a 1-2-3 recording they were playing smaller venues, according to wiki they didn't move up to larger venues until the name change to Clouds. Here, I am assuming it was recorded in the Marquee, but it could be anywhere, but most probably nowhere larger than the Marquee: Intro audience screems fade out at around 0:30 - that level of *beatlemania* hysteria would not have faded and would still have been picked up on the vocal and drum mics. If they were attracting this kind of teenage-reaction then they would have been on the front-pages of the Daily Mirror. No audience noise during quiet passages - see (1) - The Marquee was quite a small venue, the audience was very near the stage and some ambient chatter would have been picked up. It's near impossible not to. The sound is too balanced for the technology of 1967, even with the drop-outs - this sounds more like playing live in a studio than in a venue. The audience at the end is too big for The Wardor St. Marquee - it just could hold that many people!!! I've yet to hear a recording from the Marquee, or anyother small venue of this era, that is anywhere near as good as this (can't count Dream Theater - that was recorded after the Marquee moved to Charring Cross Road). The give-away for me is the drums - I've never heard drums recorded in a small venue being that far down in the mix - usually every cymbal hit gets picked up on every mic in the house - here you can barely hear them at all. I cannot say that this recording is not genuine, but I have doubts, which in turn throws serious doubt on the rest of the claims made for 1-2-3.

I am not totally convinced that the America recording is even "live". If this was a 1-2-3 recording they were playing smaller venues, according to wiki they didn't move up to larger venues until the name change to Clouds. Here, I am assuming it was recorded in the Marquee, but it could be anywhere, but most probably nowhere larger than the Marquee:

1. Intro audience screems fade out at around 0:30 - that level of *beatlemania* hysteria would not have faded and would still have been picked up on the vocal and drum mics. If they were attracting this kind of teenage-reaction then they would have been on the front-pages of the Daily Mirror.
2. No audience noise during quiet passages - see (1) - The Marquee was quite a small venue, the audience was very near the stage and some ambient chatter would have been picked up. It's near impossible not to.
3. The sound is too balanced for the technology of 1967, even with the drop-outs - this sounds more like playing live in a studio than in a venue.
4. The audience at the end is too big for The Wardor St. Marquee - it just could hold that many people!!!

I've yet to hear a recording from the Marquee, or anyother small venue of this era, that is anywhere near as good as this (can't count Dream Theater - that was recorded after the Marquee moved to Charring Cross Road). The give-away for me is the drums - I've never heard drums recorded in a small venue being that far down in the mix - usually every cymbal hit gets picked up on every mic in the house - here you can barely hear them at all.

Edited by darqdean - October 01 2007 at 17:35

This may be redundant info for you but, I remember as early as 1970 maybe earlier, that FM stations that played long cuts or album sides referred to themselves as progressive or progressive rock. This could mean anything from Humble Pie to John Mayall to King Crimson. Later when these stations started to disappear or go commercial (a lot of them around '72) the word progressive slowly morphed to mean only bands like King Crimson.
In other words the termed started out to include a wide variety of bands who didn't make commercial hits, but later it referred only to bands of a certain style (Crimson, Yes etc)
I am referring to U.S. radio and U.S. slang, could be different elsewhere.

Edited by Easy Money - October 01 2007 at 14:15

The term "progressive music" was bandied about a fair amount in the late 1960s - I've been told that "progressive rock" was actually used in conjunction with Eclection - I've never seen the (1968) album, but apparently the term is printed on the album sleeve.

I think the Beatlesque applause is tacked on.

I probably overstated in my criticisms of Billie, he has his moments. I see what you mean about organized improv as opposed to pure improv, organized improv is a lot of the prog-rock trip.

I'm a keyboard player myself; I have a Hammond organ (albeit a home model, unfortunately not a B3!!). I find that I can play some of Wakeman's material but Emerson's is often way beyond my capabilities!! I know some find Emerson too flash, but I find his playing to be brilliant and well judged; there are modern keyboard players to be far flashier (Jordan Rudess springs to mind) to the point I don't even register or be impressed by what they are playing as it's too fast.

I can hear the sound of early Yes and The Nice here very clearly, but the date of this recording is key. There is an earlier version of 'America' by Yes that was recorded for the BBC; I don't own it as it didn't appear on that 2-cd 'Something's Coming' set of BBC recordings, but apparently the first time they played it for the BBC was on the 20th October 1970 for The Mike Harding Show, and I'd assume it was in their live set before that, so perhaps this is something to bear in mind as well, IMHO.

Edited by salmacis - October 01 2007 at 09:56

Certif1ed wrote: OK, I got permission to share this recording of 1-2-3 - I've no idea how genuine it is, but it certainly sounds like the same band that plays on the verifiable recordings of Clouds that I have, and I also have some solo stuff by Billy Ritchie, which shows the same hallmarks in the keyboard playing style. It won't be everyone's cup of tea, so the point is not whether this is to your taste or not, or how proficiently executed it is (some of the playing is indeed "sloppy"), but whether this is musically innovative enough for the alleged recording date (March 1967) for this band to be considered Proto-Prog.   Obviously, I'm not gunning for archive inclusion of the band on the basis of this single track - especially as it's not published and is generally not available.   Not only that, but it appears to be two separate recordings, somewhat inexpertly spliced - you can hear the join as a gap at 5:56 - it's the right place in the song, but the EQ appears to be different, and if you listen to the crowd at the start, there's lots of screaming, while the crowd at the end is distinctly lacking in screams. There's another odd moment at 6:31, but either it's a far more expert splice, or it's just someone fiddling with the controls on the tape deck during transfer from the master.   For those interested, you can download it from my 4Shared folder at http://www.4shared.com/dir/4048545/caab73df/1-2-3.html   ****The password is Pr0gArchives****   (note the zero instead of the letter "o"!).   ..is it just me, or does the lead vocalist sound a bit like Greg Lake?

Thanks for sharing the recording, you asked for some feedback so here it is: I've been playing kybds professionally for 20 plus years and have listened to all kinds of kybdsts in that time. Billie's playing is OK, but his timing is very rushed, which probably cut him from a lot of pro work other than playing his own music. I think his tastes are very corny and his musical pastiches have no logic except look at what I can do. He sounds a lot like guys who work in music stores. Unfortunately its that kind of 'everything and the kitchen sink' musical style that mars a lot of Emmerson's work. I think Brian Auger and Mike Ratledge were both coming from a more mature musical expression at this time. As for who came first Billie or Keith I have no idea.
Overall though, I would say Keith is a far superior player and Billy sounds more like an immitator.

Edited by Easy Money - October 01 2007 at 08:19

My better half wonders why the applause is filled with girly screams typically reserved for the Beatles, and also noticed a disparity between the song quality and the applause quality, suggesting overdubbing of a sort.

I myself am too tired to know for sure, but hey, food for thought?

Edit:  Rob's still logged in, whoops   They're his thoughts, so I'll just leave it.  -MO


Edited by Harry Hood - October 01 2007 at 05:22

Is the date correct - I've try to find out when America was released by Simon & Garfunkel (at least as part of the Bookends LP) - one source indicates 1968.....?

Edited by Dick Heath - October 01 2007 at 04:44

I found the casette with the early Lord material, it sounds better than I expected, but you might want to know that you can get the only 3 cuts that SB Machine Head released on a CD called Pre Purple People.
As far as the cassette goes it has those 3 tunes, a bunch of Artwoods and Jon Lord accompanying some really old school singer named Evelyn Freeman on something that sounds like a roller rink organ.
Most reviews say that SB Machine Head plays blues, but it is closer to kind of weird semi psychedelic garage rock. Lord seems to be influenced by the rock/RnB instrumentals that Billy Preston put out in 65 and 66. Ron Wood's playing is very strange and off the wall. You can definitley hear the roots of the early DP recordings.
I don't have any way of putting this on mp3 but I can burn it to CD.