Clouds/1-2-3
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41915
Printed Date: December 19 2024 at 22:33
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Topic: Clouds/1-2-3
Posted By: Certif1ed
Subject: Clouds/1-2-3
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 16:55
|
Does anyone remember - or know?
Did these guys invent Prog Rock, or were they just a Scottish pub band that owned the Marquee in 1967?
Did they really influence ELP - particularly, did Billy Ritchie inspire Keith?
Did they really influence Yes?
Would ITCOTCK not have existed without them?
I know these are incredible claims, but they're all made through clippings on the bands website; http://www.cloudsmusic.com - www.cloudsmusic.com .
Check out the only CD on Amazon, and there's been a bit of a fight about it; http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/customer-reviews/B0000011OV/sr=1-1/qid=1190407117/ref=cm_rev_sort/203-4447454-0319160?customer-reviews.sort_by=%2BSubmissionDate&s=music&x=13&y=10 - http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/customer-reviews/B0000011OV/sr=1-1/qid=1190407117/ref=cm_rev_sort/203-4447454-0319160?customer-reviews.sort_by=%2BSubmissionDate&s=music&x=13&y=10
Of course, there aren't any readily available recordings of 1-2-3, so it's impossible to tell - unless you were one of the ones lucky enough to attend the Marquee Club back in '67.
But anecdotes would be really cool - especially from anyone who can describe what they did in something approaching technical terms - apart from stand up to play the organ, that is...
BUT
Were 1-2-3 really the very first Prog Rock band?
I need to know - the Prog world needs to know  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Replies:
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 21 2007 at 19:41
| Sorry I couldn't go to the clubs in 67 because I was only 11, but from what I have read in other sources that may be true. You might want to try Wikipedia. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: September 23 2007 at 13:00
|
I've read what's on Wikipedia - and a whole load of other links too, most of which refer to Clouds' website, http://www.cloudsmusic,com - www.cloudsmusic,com , which contains transcripts of articles, and a letter from David Bowie in 1967 - but there's still nothing conclusive.
There's a Marquee site, which lists gigs there over an impressive period of time, including 1966-69, which is the main period of activity for this band. The odd thing is that all 1-2-3 performances are missing.
It's clear from other sources that members of the band jammed with people like Hendrix, and that Emerson, Fripp and others were seen in the audience watching this band.
Cloudsmusic claims that not only were the Nice (ELP), and King Crimson directly influenced by this band, but so were Yes and Genesis, among others.
Maybe Dick Heath knows something?  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 23 2007 at 13:04
| I guess another way to go would be to contact Emmerson, Fripp or others through their web sites and see what they can recall. |
Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: September 23 2007 at 13:39
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Don't quote me on this, but the site feels incredibly PR'ed up. Robert
Fripp being hugely influenced by a band with no guitars? Tons of long,
well-written, praising letters in the guestbook from people who were
there, when current bands with much more awareness can't nick half the
attention? If you go to their external links page, you'll notice tons of Wikipedia articles that support their position: and all the articles that mention this band were edited in around the same time from the same person (this month, to boot). All the sources are what you'd call 'practically uncheckable' as well. I call bullsh*t. ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: September 25 2007 at 16:50
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I agree that everything is unverifiable, but there are interesting little facts that stand out.
1) 1-2-3 came down from Scotland in 1966, and by early 1967 (Feb, I think it was) had an established residency both at the Dumfernline Ballroom and the Marquee Club - both huge concentrates of progressive music in 1967 - the Marquee hosting many of the bands that would go on to be Prog Greats, including The Nice (later in 1967, crucially, as Billy Ritchie is reported to have influenced Keith Emerson), The Syn (featuring Yes members), Family, Pink Floyd - the list goes on.
2) It's really hard to track down information about the other bands at this time - any links to what Keith was doing prior to 1967, or where he got his influences would really help (for example - where is Linda when you need her?).
3) Clouds appeared on the 2 big Island progressive compilations - "You Can All Join In" http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=12425 - http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=12425 (you can see the band members on the cover between Sandy Denny and Paul Rodgers - with all the guys from the other big bands, like Jethro Tull, etc), and "Bumpers" http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=11440 - http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=11440 - which are both in the archives (They each have one review, from Easy Livin - maybe he knows a bit about Clouds - "Clouds are another band who sit on the periphery of prog, "I'll go girl" being the most commercial track from their excellent self-titled debut." - BTW, EL, the self-titled debut wasn't forthcoming, IIRC - there were posthumous releases like "Scrapbook" and "Watercolours", but I can find no trace of "Clouds" - except a reference to it not being released).
4) According to an eye-witness (in a conversation I had recently on my Wikipedia talk page), Billy Ritchie not only incorporated classical music into his performances before Keith formed the Nice, but he also chucked his Hammond around the stage, in order to make the spring reverb make its classic noise. It is certainly difficult to think of another rock band in 1966 - early 1967 that had a keyboard player as the lead.
So, did 1-2-3 inspire The Nice?
Is Keith just a Billy Ritchie clone?
 ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 10:35
|
Keith Emerson was in R & B acts The T-Bones and The V.I.P.'s in the mid 60s before he ended up in The Nice. According to Wikipedia, the thing that turned Emerson onto the organ as an instrument was hearing Brother Jack McDuff's 'Rock Candy'; there is a testament to this track's influence on Keith of sorts. I once owned an album which documented a 1969 jam session (it was released most widely called 'Music From Free Creek', with people like Dr John, Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck and many others- some under pseudonyms) and Keith was on that actually playing 'Rock Candy'. Prior to becoming famous in their own right, The Nice were apparently the backing band for PP Arnold before they went off on their own; I have an interview with her as part of the 'Rock Family Trees' special on Yes and ELP (it's excellent), and I think she mentioned that they had a solo slot before the main event, which was her.
In the same documentary, Keith and Lee Jackson recall the first time Keith started picking up the Hammond and throwing it about; it was in a gig in France where, as Keith puts it, 'a fight broke out in the audience and all these French guys were smashing s*** out of each other', and Keith joined in the commotion, albeit by chucking his Hammond about. The reaction to this allegedly stopped the fight in the audience. Unfortunately, a date isn't given for this event. Chris Squire also mentions that he used to go to see The Nice whilst in bands like The Syn and (ahem) Mabel Greer's Toyshop. Certainly, though, I definitely hear the influence of The Nice on Yes' very earliest work (the cover of 'Something's Coming' and later on 'America', the introductions to 'Looking Around' and 'Harold Land').
I'm not sure that keyboard players as a main instrument were all that rare, personally- there had already been people like Brian Auger, Georgie Fame and Graham Bond around; possibly even the early days of Soft Machine with Mike Ratledge. I'd imagine these were probably as influential on Emerson in some way as Billy Ritchie apparently was. There's also someone called Wynder K.Frog who was Mick Weaver under a pseudonym who seems to have been one of the first British people (I think he was the first!) to release an album on Island, who played the organ and dealt in organ-driven instrumentals. I have one track of Clouds on the 3cd Island box set 'Strangely Strange But Oddly Normal' box set called 'The Carpenter'; I'll have to give it a listen. But I'm not altogether convinced by these claims, I have to be honest...
|
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 12:51
|
I love P.P.Arnold - her voice was incredible!
The main issue with the Clouds' tracks and albums is that, as many Clouds fans testify, they are watered-down versions of what the band did live - and Clouds weren't great songwriters - which only serves to fuel suspicion. There is definitely something about the music that makes it stand out, though - it's very well put together.
However, I've begged and bullied ...and obtained recordings of 1-2-3 playing live at the Marquee...
 These are absolutely on the money - if genuine:
There's little reason to suspect they're not genuine, as the band sound very like the same band behind the Clouds recordings I already own, but wilder and freer with improv, including interjections of classical composers, such as Bach (I distinctly made out the unmistakable sound of "Jesu, bleibet meine Freude" in the middle of some extensive improv around an extended and rocked-up version of Simon and Garfunkel's "America");
The style and overall sound is unmistakeably 1967-72, leaning towards the earlier part of that period, given the number of recordings I've listened to of "underground" acts from that time - it's not that easy to forge the sound with modern kit - although I concede it could be done. Can't think why anyone would want to though.
Now all I need are verifiable dates to go with the recordings.
If any of these were recorded before The Nice formed, or before Emerson started getting into sticking classical episodes into solos and chucking his keyboard around, and before the main Proto-Prog bands came into being, then the link is proven beyond all doubt.
The music I'm hearing is a kind of street-level Prog Rock - all the ingredients are there, it's just that the mix is primitive (not a criticism, an observation ;o). It really is like the missing link between psychedelia, progressive blues and progressive rock. If the dates turn out to be mid-period, then that still puts this band on the map very comfortably. Sometimes it pays to be pushy... :o)
::As usual, of course, I still crave more data besides exact dates of performance - where did Billy get his ideas from?
The emerging counterculture in the US that came about from the electrification of the folkies and the formation of bands like the Grateful Dead, and some of Fifty Foot Hose's dadaist and electronic ideas - and the prevaling modern jazz influences along with the experimental approaches of the progressive blues bands all shine through, but it's the classical interjections and tight structuring that are puzzling me.
For a live performance with a large helping of improvisation, it's eerily tight, suggesting real composition. Where did those ideas come from (given that no man is an island ;o)?
Assuming these recordings really did come from 1967 (and I haven't seen the original reels, of course...), they do place 1-2-3 very comfortably among the early Proto-Prog bands.
Obviously, my reserves about the authenticity of the material mean that I'm not 100% convinced yet - but having heard this music, if the tapes are genuine, then 1-2-3 really are up there with what the Moodies, Procul Harum and The Nice were doing at the same time, and could well deserve the accolade of Forefathers of Prog.
My research continues... is this the greatest find or the greatest hoax in the history of Prog? ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 13:02
| Whatever happened to Billy Ritchie, is he still around ? |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 13:15
|
I'm trying to find out - I found a couple of online forums on which his brother Brian has posted - but that was months ago.
I really am bullying people for info on this band - I hope they forgive me... ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 26 2007 at 13:21
| On the plus side, I think a lot of people will be interested in what you find out. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 02:41
Indeed - Bond's Organisation is reportedly the first band to use the Mellotron in anger. Wynder K Frog is on the "You Can All Join In" album, along with Clouds
All I could find about Billy is that he did some work with Jona Lewie in the late 1970s, and has done some work re-recording some of the old 1-2-3 stuff himself, as he was very unhappy that their decent material failed to get released.
I'm now pushing to get my hands on this too - and any more 1-2-3 material I can listen to, as what I've heard is stunning in many ways - one might say "too good to be true", but it's very convincing.
I've also heard gossip that Record Collector are going to be running an article on 1-2-3 in the near future, and that an upcoming book on David Bowie will be including some stuff about them, as David was very keen on what this band did to his material live.
I've been told that the stuff I've heard (a live performance of Simon and Garfunkel's "America") was put together in 1966, and the performance was Saturday March 18th, 1967 - which would put them ahead of the Nice.
I can't find a record of that gig, although I found this (and yes, it's from 1967);
 There's also the question of whether anyone played the Marquee at all on the night of March 18th: http://www.themarqueeclub.net/1967 - http://www.themarqueeclub.net/1967
My other simple and more damning quesion is, if the band put the arrangement together in 1966, and performed it in March 1967, where did they get the Tardis from?
Simon and Garfunkel's "Bookends" was released on April 3rd 1968, and "America" wasn't released as a single until 1972 - the year after Yes covered it.
It's a very good cover, but...
 Investigation to be continued... ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
salmacis wrote:Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 03:52
 Hoax, confirmed? ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 04:06
Well, let's sum up what we know;
1. The band existed and played the Marquee at the right time and, became Clouds in 1968.
2. Clouds were featured on TWO major label promotion compilations alongside great progressive artists including King Crimson, Jethro Tull, Traffic, Nick Drake and Spooky Tooth.
3. There are numerous reports of keyboardist Billy Ritchie doing all these things live that were influential and mind-blowingly different.
4. The recordings I have listened to, even if they turn out to be later than claimed, are significantly progressive enough to warrant some attention - the music contains clear jazz and classical influences, and some really neat tricks with tempo and time signature alteration - and it rocks.
5. Everything I've read on the bands' website exaggerates somewhat - but the exaggerations seem more attention-grabbing than overly excessive.
The jury is currently out...
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Man Overboard
Date Posted: September 27 2007 at 04:29
It reads really funny. The testimonials on the website do seem quite attention-grabbing and freakishly specific for something with no concrete evidence of doing more than, well, existing. Did In The Court even -have- an organ, btw?  But in all seriousness, it feels like this: The band can somewhat prove that it existed pre-prog. The band had an organist, who when faced with a drummer and a bassist, most likely took the lead. David Bowie seems to like them. Now, there are no verifiable recordings of this group. What recordings are surfacing are definitely suspect in origin and nature, as I understand, as well as time period. This band 'became' Clouds, who supposedly took a more commercial leaning because they found little success with their supposedly incredible groundbreaking prog. What if the real story reads more like this? 1-2-3 were a decent, if relatively unmemorable psychedelic band in the late 60's, who had no official recordings, despite playing at the Marquee. They quickly went downhill, their label regulating them to play cabarets and such. Later influenced by proto-prog and prog acts springing up around them, they reformed as Clouds and tried their hand at this new prog style, but as evidenced by the recordings that -do- exist, they did not meet success. This rendition also fits with the hard facts that exist, and is in all honesty much more likely. So let's say that it's the 21st century. Billy Ritchie is upset, because he's not even a has-been; he's a never-was. He's looking back at 1-2-3 and Clouds and wondering where he went wrong. After contemplating it, he realizes that there's so -little- legacy of his output that with some creative twists, he can rewrite the entire story, and become the hero to his peers who surpassed him by so far, so long ago. Considering cloudsmusic.com is owned and run by one Billy Ritchie, I'd say that it's pretty obvious how this played out, yes?  ------------- https://soundcloud.com/erin-susan-jennings" rel="nofollow - Bedroom guitarist". Composer, Arranger, Producer. Perfection may not exist, but I may still choose to serve Perfection. Commissions considered. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: September 29 2007 at 06:45
|
Hmm - I didn't spot that the Clouds website is run by Billy - and your interpretation seems a reasonable one.
But without real evidence either way, it's hard to prove either story.
It is totally possible that Emerson, members of Syn (who movd on to Yes) et al were in the audience at the Marquee and were influenced by some of the things that this band did.
The story behind "America" (which I'm merely relating from my contact) is that someone in the 1-2-3 entourage happened to be working at the studio in which S&G were recording the songs for Bookends (which took a long time to put together). He got permission for 1-2-3 to cover the song (not unusual for the time), and they put together their own arrangement.
Another contact of mine says he definitely remembers the band doing this song in 1967, and wondered how they got their hands on it first - so this does go some way to explaining it. When you consider that Yes released it as a single in 1971 in their own arrangement, but S&G didn't release it until the next year, it becomes even more likely that Yes were influenced by 1-2-3 or Clouds.
On a slightly side-issue, I'm working back the thread of bands that used the classics in their songs or arrangements, and the somewhat startling result is that rock bands have been doing it since year 0 - 1955. Even Elvis used the classics in songs such as "Wooden Heart", "Can't Help Falling in Love" and "It's Now or Never", and I've found 2 examples of Perry Como and Ken Dodd using them - and there was a band in 1961 called "Nero and the Gladiators" who, it seems, often used Classical influences and were an influence on Ritchie Blackmore ( http://www.vintageguitar.com/artists/details.asp?ID=58 - http://www.vintageguitar.com/artists/details.asp?ID=58 ), and an equally obscure band called B Bumble and the Stingers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._Bumble_and_the_Stingers - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._Bumble_and_the_Stingers , http://www.allbutforgottenoldies.net/b-bumble-and-the-stingers.html - http://www.allbutforgottenoldies.net/b-bumble-and-the-stingers.html .
Arranging other people's songs into elaborate arrangements was something that jazz bands did frequently - and B Bumble and the Stingers did this too, arranging songs (including jazz songs) into rock. The second link has samples of published music, so at least these guys can be verified.
Proto Prog? ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 29 2007 at 06:47
|
I think Mr. Heath needs to check this out
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 29 2007 at 07:25
|
If your talking about old bands using classical music, I think Kim Fowley's Nut Rocker goes back aways. Also there is a song by the Andrew Sisters that I think is called Lovers Concerto that uses a well-known theme by Bach.
There are tons of exotic lounge bands that would do covers of tunes like Bolero, Pavanne, Clair de Lune, Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto No 2 in C minor etc. Some of those artists include very experimental arrangers like Martin Denny, Dick Hyman, Les Baxter, and Esquival. They were also some of the first users of the new Moog synth. I guess those bands aren't really rock, but they would combine lots of styles in their arrangements including rock. The first ELP record has a lot in common with exotic lounge music. Keith would often use the theme from Hyman's Minatour in his synth improvs. |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: September 29 2007 at 08:10
|
As for classical/rock fusions, one of my personal favourites is the 1967 hit by The Move, 'Night Of Fear'. I always felt 'Nutrocker' is fun but something of a novelty record (of course, it turns up at the end of ELP's 'Pictures...'), but 'Night Of Fear' turns a section from '1812 Overture' into a bona fide pop song with quintessential psychedelic lyrics. It's one of my favourite singles of all time. Around 1962 or so, a band called The Outlaws did a version of 'Hall Of The Mountain King'; Ritchie Blackmore was in that band, AFAIK, but whether he's playing on that I can't recall.
'Lovers Concerto' was by a band called The Toys, I seem to recall.
|
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: September 29 2007 at 08:20
MIcky Here's what I wrote you privately - reading in more details I think it's worth adding my halfpenny'sworth here on the thread Clearly debatable - cross-fertilisation certainly for bands around London at the time, who would have been mingling. However, Middle Earth, Tiles, also were important (perhaps more important) venues for bands to play and hang out. The Cuneiform Records release last year, (of one of the so-called influencees) Soft Machine's Middle Earth Tapes, undoubtedly reveals Mike Ratledge and Machine were capable of doing their own thing in 1967 and many sources have stated than Ayer's mantra -like tunes, Ratledge's avant classic/jazz keys, Daevid Allen's experimental rock, and Robert Wyatt somewhere between Elvin Jones and Ringo Starr, give them a unique sound. I think if I can introduce contradiction on behalf of one band, then others can do so for other so-called infleuncees. So I don't accept that - but more than willing to check out Clouds in further detail. As to ELP, this indicates one writer is unaware of Emerson in Nice in 1967 - and Nice, I thought, might have been listening to Vanilla Fudge as much as any other band. Finally, if Cloud were good, why were Pink Floyd and Soft Machine the top underground bands during this period? But to repeat, I'll check this band out - I'm sure I have an odd recording on a psychedelic collection. But such claims don't really add up. Finally it is total bollocks to lay the blame for the invention progressive rock/music etc. at the feet of one band, the music evolved! As I've stated before, progressive music/underground music (1966 to 1971), was about the experimental hybridisation of (this new fangled thing we were only just calling) rock with other musical genres - there were so many combinations to go at , and I suggest it was impossible for one band to use more than a few combinations at one time. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 29 2007 at 08:22
 Thanks Richard
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 29 2007 at 09:42
| Well certainly Keith used a lot of classical stuff in the Nice, but his exotic lounge influence didn't show as much till ELP albums like the first one and Trilogy. It probably has a lot to do with the fact that he wasn't using synths in the Nice. |
Posted By: jcleary
Date Posted: September 29 2007 at 15:23
|
I saw Clouds live three times. The first playing at a festival headlined by Jethro Tull in May 1970. They were
ok, but nothing great. Tull blew them away. Then saw them twice more at different times at the Whisky A Go Go. They were always alot better live than on their albums. Their first album Scrapbook is a complete embarrassment. Their second album Water Color Days is only slightly better. There is NO comparison between what Clouds was doing at the time and their contemporaries. I saw the band Quatermass around the same time as Clouds, and Peter Robinson absolutely DROP KICKED Billy Ritchie! Ritchie is NOT even close to the same league as Emerson, Wakeman, Auger, Peter Robinson, and Vincent Crane! I've seen all of these Great Men Live and Ritchie was just ok nothing special. His claim to fame is that he says he was the first to play standing up. The Clouds Web Site is a complete EXAGGERATION!!! Just listen to Scrapbook! |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: September 29 2007 at 15:47
Of course it's nonsense to ascribe the development of Prog to one band - it's obvious that the Clouds website is exaggerating in order to get attention.
What I'm trying to find out is whether the previous incarnation, known as 1-2-3, were in some way instrumental in laying down the foundations or inspiring particular bands (specifically, the ones that the Clouds website claims influence upon, notably The Nice and Yes. Others may be taken with a grain of salt - the Genesis link is the most tentative of all!).
You're completely right about Pink Floyd (and the Softies) - they were undoubtedly the leaders of the underground, but they didn't use the particular techniques I'm interested in;
1) Fusing Jazz/Rock and Classical styling - this is all evident in the recording I've heard - and if the recording I've heard is of 1-2-3/Billy Ritchie, then he's a fantastic rock keyboard player with a very fertile imagination. Whoever played on this recording had some brilliant ideas - and the available Clouds recordings will not tell you much about this kind of invention. It does back up the claims on the website that the band were unhappy with the albums, and that they did not represent what the band did live - as with so many bands at that time.
2) Elaborating on other people's songs - this was something Vanilla Fudge were noted for, and it's VF's approach that I'm trying to backtrack. Allegedly, 1-2-3 predate VF in this.
3) Using the keyboard as the Lead instrument - in the recording I've heard, it's extremely prominent, and leads much the same way Emerson led. Again, it's alleged that Keith was in the audience when 1-2-3 played (he was in the backing band for P P Arnold at the time - this is before The Nice formed), and this is where he got his ideas.
The previous response is interesting - the band certainly split opinions of witnesses down the middle, as Amazon testifies: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/B0000011OV/sr=8-3/qid=1191138069/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful/105-8561709-5829234?ie=UTF8&n=5174&qid=1191138069&sr=8-3#customerReviews - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/B0000011OV/sr=8-3/qid=1191138069/ref=cm_cr_dp_all_helpful/105-8561709-5829234?ie=UTF8&n=5174&qid=1191138069&sr=8-3#customerReviews
There are those who seemed to think that the sun shone from their proverbial, and those that thought they sucked - and I can see why; there's an amateurishness in Ritchie's approach that some could see as charming, others as painful.
Certainly, the recording I've heard is on a par with The Nice's cover of the other "America" in terms of invention, fireworks and down to earth rock and roll. I've yet to hear anything by Quatermass or Atomic Rooster that would blow it out of the water - it sounds at least equal, but allegedly is a couple of years earlier.
Certainly, compared to the live recordings I've seen of AR on YouTube, Vincent Crane's keyboard work is primitive in comparison - mere repetitive rhythmic stabs of a very limited number of ideas - no wild flights of fantasy taking the listener to Bach and back.
Maybe Clouds stopped playing this type of material on record company advice?
If this recording turns out to be the real thing, ie from early 1967, it puts 1-2-3 in the right place, as an important part of Prog's development - but not as the inventors, as the site might have you believe!
If it turns out to be from later, then as long as it predates Prog proper, the band deserve an honourary mention in the history books.
If it's a fake, then I'm still enjoying researching this particular era (pre summer of 1967).
*edit - is that the same J Cleary who posted the Amazon review?
Why the animosity? Were they really that awful? Did you ever see them when they were 1-2-3?
Can you describe what they did in technical terms?
This would be VERY useful to the research. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: September 30 2007 at 08:10
|
Cert , Did you catch the 2nd episode of Jazz Britannia - about 18 months ago - on BBC4? It was argued because the old guard of British jazz musicians would not allow the new guard touch their instruments (esp the piano), the"kids" went and brought in their electric pianos, organs to play live (suggested there as the start of the UK jazz rock movement), e.g. Georgie Fame, Graham Bond (an early pioneer of the Mellotron), Brian Auger - I can only think of a young John McLaughlin being on the scene with a guitar. In addition there were keyboard lead pop/R'n'B bands: Manfred Mann, (Alan Price in) The Animals, Stevie Winwood in the Spencer Davis Band - Ian Stewart was often called the 6th Rolling Stone and necessary to the band for his keyboard work. So there would have been experimentation from about 1962/3 - so if you are exploring pre-1967, check out some of these band's albums and hear what sort of "album-fillers" were being played. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 30 2007 at 09:54
| Jon Lord had some sort of instrumental band early on, they were sort of "surfy" sounding and were named after somewhere in California, maybe Malibu, I don't recall. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: September 30 2007 at 13:51
Thanks, Dick - these are exactly the avenues I'm exploring, and the stuff about electric pianos was one of the first tid bits that leapt out at me when I perused the course of the birth of the Cool - and the criminally overlooked Lennie Tristano, who should be well-known to all Prog Metal fans not least because of his and Billy Evans' work tutoring Joe Satriani, but mainly because his tightly structured approach to modern jazz has more in common with Prog Rock than Miles'. I followed this in conjunction with BeBop through to Hard Bop before I found rock/jazz crossovers. Sadly I missed the TV programme you mention.
In an earlier post in this thread, I mentioned Graham Bond's Organisation as the first recorded band to use the Mellotron, and the Animals as early keyboard/rock bands - Spencer Davis Group are an old favourite of mine, but that's a good heads up about Ian Stewart though!
I'm really wondering where the improvisation and elaboration started to appear in rock - or whether Floyd and the Softies really were first.
There are the bands from the US, of course - the Grateful Dead with their tentative "jazz influences", and a band called Fifty Foot Hose, who I'm having a whale of a time exploring. These guys were influenced by jazz for real (early 1967), and also avante garde composers - particularly Varese (as Zappa was), but were so experimental they actually built and modified instruments to get the sounds the wanted.
I recommend their album "Cauldron" for repeated listens in order to "get" why they're so important. The song "Red the Sign Post" is clearly the basis for "Space Trucking" by Deep Purple...
Then there's the fascinating Delia Derbyshire, who set up Unit Delta Plus, and organised a festival of electronic music in Newbury in 1966, and also performed at the million volts light and sound rave at the roundhouse in 1967 - surely Pink Floyd weren't far away?
...none of which has much bearing on 1-2-3, sadly... I'm trying to track down more recordings of them live - it seems odd that there's apparently only one track in existence - you'd think there would be an entire reel or two somewhere from the sound desk of the Marquee, Dunfermline ballroom or other venues. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: September 30 2007 at 14:41
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Jon Lord's 'surf band' were called, AFAIK, Santa Barbara Machine Head. I have a track of theirs somewhere but as I understand it this was just a cobbled together name for a group of session musicians jamming; like the 60s jams between Jimmy Page and Eric Clapton (allegedly recorded in one of their living rooms), these have been endlessly recycled as if they were some sort of holy grail when they are anything but that and are really just ordinary blues jams, IMHO.
Jon Lord was, however, in an R & B act called The Artwoods which like The Graham Bond Organisation, is something of a breeding ground for British rock talent. Alongside Lord on the organ, Keef Hartley played drums and Art Wood, the brother of Ron Wood, handled the vocals. I have their album 'Art Gallery' and will have to give it another listen...Jon Lord also contributed some lovely mellotron to the cash-in (but I love it to bits) record by The Flowerpot Men, 'Let's Go To San Francisco'.
As for improvisation and elaboration in rock, I remember hearing the original version of 'White Rabbit' by The Great Society on Dick's radio show. It has a very lengthy guitar introduction that was way ahead of its time, and is arguably even more ambitious than the Jefferson Airplane version...which I loved anyway! Perhaps The Byrds' 'Eight Miles High' is relevant here too, IMHO, with its Indian-inspired guitar lines.
Manfred Mann also did a few instrumentals in their earlier days; before any of the hits, they did a jazz-based single 'Why Should We Not/ Brother Jack', and in later years when Jack Bruce joined, did an EP called 'Instrumental Asylum' which had their takes on chart hits of the day. And The Yardbirds apparently did their 'rave up' versions of blues standards like 'Smokestack Lightining' that could go on for something like 20 minutes. 'Five Live Yardbirds' doesn't provide evidence of that, but then if you read the sleevenotes on the back of the original sleeve it's clear that that performance was not a natural representation of their normal set, IMHO. Still, at least it is still live; I know certain live albums (particularly those 'recorded live' at the Cavern, it seems!) from the era are not live at all but were doctored later on...
Didn't Delia Derbyshire contribute to the arrangement of the original 'Doctor Who' theme in 1963, written by Ron Grainer? It's funny how the very earliest versions of that theme have aged SO much better than the 80s-era ones; the Sylvester McCoy era version in particular played by Keff McCullough is utterly ghastly sounding!!
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 30 2007 at 15:11
| I have a cassette a friend of mine made for me that has the S.B. Machine Head songs (about 5 I think) and the Artwoods and maybe something else, but I will have to look around. Thanks for the info. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 30 2007 at 15:13
| P.S. You probably already know this but I think Lord played on some of those early Kinks hits too. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: September 30 2007 at 17:08
I've got the Great Society's album, "Conspicuous by it's absence" - the version of "Somebody to Love" is great too, but these were the originals, ie, before the days of the Airplane. There's definitely a more improvisatory feel to the piece - but that's probably the influence of the Grateful Dead, who were the improv masters in that scene at the time, as I understand it.
8 Miles High is completely relevant not just here, but in modern rock generally - as is their electrified renditions of Dylan's songs that led to Dylan causing an outrage at the Newport Folk festival in 1965. The Byrds also introduced the Beatles to Ravi Shankar - these 3 (Dylan, Byrds and Beatles) and their important meeting(s) are probably THE most significant things to happen to rock music, ever - but that's all part of what came before Proto Prog, and this huge set of strands is well documented.
OK, so this is painting a picture of a growing trend that we can easily fit a band such as 1-2-3 into - they took this approach, but gave it their own little twist. I'm wondering how much of a twist they gave it - I'd really like to distribute the 1-2-3 recording I have among interested parties, but I'm currently waiting for my contact to give me permission.
Indeed - it is that Delia Derbyshire - she was utterly amazing, God rest her soul. "Love Without Sound", the first track on "An Electric Storm" is Trip Hop, two decades before its invention - except it's more haunting even than Portishead's "Glory Box" and seems to come from a different dimension... what a truly remarkable song!
Can you mp3 these and upload them somewhere?
That'd be really cool.  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: September 30 2007 at 17:57
Joe Boyd in his autobiography White Bicycles, wrote about rock coming about at that Newport jazz & folk festival, when Dylan walked on stage with members of Paul Butterfield's BB and Al Kooper (?). Personally I don't remember using the word 'rock' until the late 60's - indeed whilst the word was freely bandied about by the music media (especially the underground press), my hesitancy to its use was because no clear definition of the term were provided - hence my confusion/bemusement what the difference was with rock'n'roll? Perhaps a forgotten reason why the terms 'progressive music' on this side of the Atlantic and 'underground music' both sides were preferred. So if 'rock' wasn't used until mid 60's, things having the name 'rock' crystallised very quickly or did they? I still hold that 'progressive rock 'only became commonplace after 1971/2 ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 30 2007 at 17:59
| Regarding early Lord material: More than happy to share what I have, I need to find the casette first, the copy I have may have been copied from cassette, so the sound may not be great. Also, I may have to burn it to CD and mail it to someone because I haven't dealt with transferring to mp3s much. I'll let you know when the casette turns up. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: September 30 2007 at 23:28
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I found the casette with the early Lord material, it sounds better than I expected, but you might want to know that you can get the only 3 cuts that SB Machine Head released on a CD called Pre Purple People.
As far as the cassette goes it has those 3 tunes, a bunch of Artwoods and Jon Lord accompanying some really old school singer named Evelyn Freeman on something that sounds like a roller rink organ. Most reviews say that SB Machine Head plays blues, but it is closer to kind of weird semi psychedelic garage rock. Lord seems to be influenced by the rock/RnB instrumentals that Billy Preston put out in 65 and 66. Ron Wood's playing is very strange and off the wall. You can definitley hear the roots of the early DP recordings. I don't have any way of putting this on mp3 but I can burn it to CD. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 03:09
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OK, I got permission to share this recording of 1-2-3 - I've no idea how genuine it is, but it certainly sounds like the same band that plays on the verifiable recordings of Clouds that I have, and I also have some solo stuff by Billy Ritchie, which shows the same hallmarks in the keyboard playing style. It won't be everyone's cup of tea, so the point is not whether this is to your taste or not, or how proficiently executed it is (some of the playing is indeed "sloppy"), but whether this is musically innovative enough for the alleged recording date (March 1967) for this band to be considered Proto-Prog.
Obviously, I'm not gunning for archive inclusion of the band on the basis of this single track - especially as it's not published and is generally not available.
Not only that, but it appears to be two separate recordings, somewhat inexpertly spliced - you can hear the join as a gap at 5:56 - it's the right place in the song, but the EQ appears to be different, and if you listen to the crowd at the start, there's lots of screaming, while the crowd at the end is distinctly lacking in screams. There's another odd moment at 6:31, but either it's a far more expert splice, or it's just someone fiddling with the controls on the tape deck during transfer from the master.
For those interested, you can download it from my 4Shared folder at http://www.4shared.com/dir/4048545/caab73df/1-2-3.html - http://www.4shared.com/dir/4048545/caab73df/1-2-3.html
****The password is Pr0gArchives****
(note the zero instead of the letter "o"!).
..is it just me, or does the lead vocalist sound a bit like Greg Lake? ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 04:43
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Is the date correct - I've try to find out when America was released by Simon & Garfunkel (at least as part of the Bookends LP) - one source indicates 1968.....?
http://sglyrics.myrmid.com/bestof.htm#track19 - http://sglyrics.myrmid.com/bestof.htm#track19
so does Wikipaedia (but not my favourite reference) ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 05:08
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I have this from my source; "When the Premiers (the band's name before 1-2-3) were taken to London to record by Cyril Stapleton, the engineer at Radio Luxembourg, Stewart 'Stu' Francis had also worked at Levy studios and had a tape of Paul Simon, who had recorded there in 1965. Stu became a friend of the band, and was present at all the London gigs during the 1-2-3 years. Out of the recordings, Billy (Ritchie) chose 'The Sound of Silence' and 'America'. Hence 1-2-3 played both in 1966, some two years before the world was aware of them."
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Harry Hood
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 05:15
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My better half wonders why the applause is filled with girly screams typically reserved for the Beatles, and also noticed a disparity between the song quality and the applause quality, suggesting overdubbing of a sort. I myself am too tired to know for sure, but hey, food for thought? Edit: Rob's still logged in, whoops They're his thoughts, so I'll just leave it. -MO------------- 
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 06:43
Does this story ring true? Sure, bands were picking up on the likesDylan, e.g. from bootleg recordings that were to become the Basement Tapes, but Dylan was the guv'nor, universally known. Why would Paul Simon, known in the limited Biritish folk circles, be picked out from allsorts of demos, to be played to a yet to be successful British pop group????????????? ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 07:04
Overall though, I would say Keith is a far superior player and Billy sounds more like an immitator. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 08:31
S&G established themselves with the song "Sound of Silence" among the same folk/rock cirles as Dylan - but they an were up and coming act in 1966, despite having worked for many, many years previously. Notably, S&G used Dylan's backing band for "Sound of Silence" (the LP).
Recording sessions for "Bookends" started in 1966 (at Levys Studios) - or at least, material that ended up on Bookends was recorded from the autumn of 1966 through to January 1968
1-2-3, or the Premiers, as they were then known, were up and coming - Cyril Stapleton was well known in easy-listening circles and probably had some influence on the decision - this nice, wholesome unheard-of American duo wrote great songs, while the Premiers had real problems writing their own material, but had a certain style in their playing.
This is obviously my own personal guesswork, not an attempt to put spin on the story, rather ekeing out the few strands of credibility that are in it.
I see the holes in the story too - and there are so many little inconsistencies in the detail; On the date I've been given for the recording, there was no gig at the Marquee - but there was one a few days earlier (or later - can't be bothered to check - the point is, the date is wrong).
Clouds' website also claims a "headline residency" at the Marquee, yet the flyers I've found from the time put 1-2-3 in the middle of a fairly long list for the closest date, and support slots at best for later in the year.
I've been playing keyboards a while too, and agree with much of what you're saying - but I can hear an instinctive logic that makes me shy away from the "kitchen sink" criticism as a general thing - my feeling is that it's rushed because he can't play the ideas he's having very well due to lack of academic training.
If you listen to the full-length Yes version, there seem to be passages that Yes have taken from this version - the 1-2-3 ending, for example, appears to be used at the beginning in Yes' version. Concurrence?
The incoporation of "Jesu, bleibet meine Freude" (Bach) in the 1-2-3 version isn't as contrived as it first seems, on subsequent listens - for example. The logical musical flow here seems pretty good, even if the execution is off.
I can't think of many "rock" acts playing in late 1966/early 1967 that took the improvised feel and arrangement to this kind of level - context is important here, as mid 1967 saw an explosion in this sort of invention, including the formation of The Nice...
Much of what was happening at the time in Rock was pure rather than structured improv, and structured improv is what forms the basis of many of the bands of the "progressive music" movement (including Pink Floyd - Saucerful of Secrets has a 4-part structure - designed as a kind of architectural blueprint, I seem to remember reading somewhere) - and crucially, early Prog Rock bands.
The structured improv here is primitive - but I think it serves well as Prog Rock roots - if, indeed, it turns out to be 100% genuine. *New strand of research - structured improv in rock - preferably pre-dating 1966.* ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 09:48
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I'm a keyboard player myself; I have a Hammond organ (albeit a home model, unfortunately not a B3!!). I find that I can play some of Wakeman's material but Emerson's is often way beyond my capabilities!! I can hear the sound of early Yes and The Nice here very clearly, but the date of this recording is key. There is an earlier version of 'America' by Yes that was recorded for the BBC; I don't own it as it didn't appear on that 2-cd 'Something's Coming' set of BBC recordings, but apparently the first time they played it for the BBC was on the 20th October 1970 for The Mike Harding Show, and I'd assume it was in their live set before that, so perhaps this is something to bear in mind as well, IMHO. http://forgottenyesterdays.com/guides.asp?mType=17&menuType=1 - http://forgottenyesterdays.com/guides.asp?mType=17&menuType=1
For me, Billy's organ tone is not anywhere near as adventurous (IMHO of course) as what Keith Emerson and Mike Ratledge's were. His playing itself is quite interesting, though, IMHO. I think it's the rather mundane sound of the organ that might make some question how innovative/good he was. As for the arrangement itself, I think it's a bit piecemeal, but there you go...Is it me or does the applause at the end of this not quite fit in with the sound quality present on the music?
I've just discovered that there is an anthology of Keith Emerson called 'Hammer It Out' that actually features a recording he did in the mid-60s of 'Rock Candy'; perhaps that might clear up who was influenced by who....
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Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 09:55
On the remaster of The Groundhogs' 'Thank Christ For The Bomb', there are some extra tracks taken from BBC sessions. One of those is a 21st July 1970 session recording of 'Garden' on the Mike Harding show and it's clearly stated 'they've now switched to progressive rock', even way back then. Presumably the term may well have been used before then? There was a thread running on the origins of the term a while back but it petered out long ago...
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 09:55
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I think the Beatlesque applause is tacked on.
I probably overstated in my criticisms of Billie, he has his moments. I see what you mean about organized improv as opposed to pure improv, organized improv is a lot of the prog-rock trip. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 11:25
It comes down to regular and preferred use. Underground music certainly was preferred in the late 60's - but then The Wowie Zowie compilation subtitled as The World Of Progressive Music, shows that there was an alternative term. As written before, progressive rock was in general use after the dust had settled and the established bands were headlining: KC, Yes, Genesis etc. , i.e. there was something less ambiguous about the genre. I believe 1970 was the year of a massive explosion in experimental and exploratory variants of rock, let me repeat check: Stud (1st), Skid Row (2nd), Patto (1st) albums (as numbered) for examples of everything and the kitchen sink being tried out. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 12:55
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The term "progressive music" was bandied about a fair amount in the late 1960s - I've been told that "progressive rock" was actually used in conjunction with Eclection - I've never seen the (1968) album, but apparently the term is printed on the album sleeve.
Sadly, I could only find this small picture of the sleeve, so can't verify (the music is a bit like Fairport Convention);
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 12:55
Strikes me as odd for a band I followed at the time and most of us would have still said The Groundhogs were still blues (rock) then ............ ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 13:15
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This may be redundant info for you but, I remember as early as 1970 maybe earlier, that FM stations that played long cuts or album sides referred to themselves as progressive or progressive rock. This could mean anything from Humble Pie to John Mayall to King Crimson. Later when these stations started to disappear or go commercial (a lot of them around '72) the word progressive slowly morphed to mean only bands like King Crimson.
In other words the termed started out to include a wide variety of bands who didn't make commercial hits, but later it referred only to bands of a certain style (Crimson, Yes etc) I am referring to U.S. radio and U.S. slang, could be different elsewhere. |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 14:39
| I have the Eclection album on CD but unfortunately, the sleevenotes were newly written for the CD. Musically, it's closer to The Mamas and The Papas or 'Surrealistic Pillow'-era Jefferson Airplane than anything folk-rock, let alone progressive rock! It had Trevor Lucas and Gerry Conway in the band, both of which did go onto Fairport Convention, but the music is not like Fairport at all, IMHO. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 17:24
I am not totally convinced that the America recording is even "live". If this was a 1-2-3 recording they were playing smaller venues, according to wiki they didn't move up to larger venues until the name change to Clouds. Here, I am assuming it was recorded in the Marquee, but it could be anywhere, but most probably nowhere larger than the Marquee:
I've yet to hear a recording from the Marquee, or anyother small venue of this era, that is anywhere near as good as this (can't count Dream Theater - that was recorded after the Marquee moved to Charring Cross Road). The give-away for me is the drums - I've never heard drums recorded in a small venue being that far down in the mix - usually every cymbal hit gets picked up on every mic in the house - here you can barely hear them at all. I cannot say that this recording is not genuine, but I have doubts, which in turn throws serious doubt on the rest of the claims made for 1-2-3 (for me). ------------- What? |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 17:35
I've only heard one track - and probably made the connection through the band members...
 Thanks for that - but I didn't think it sounded much like either Mamas and Papas or Jefferson Airplane...!
Here are the liner notes, that include the term "progressive rock" http://www.richieunterberger.com/eclection.html - http://www.richieunterberger.com/eclection.html - the term meant something different in the 1960s - see my response to Ghost Rider's thread http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42194&PN=2 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42194&PN=2
I agree with Dick on the Groundhogs - "Thank Christ..." is nothing like Prog - it's just great heavy blues. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 17:49
The only thing I can offer to contradict any of this is that I posted a flyer earlier in this thread that clearly shows 1-2-3 on the bill as part of an all-dayer at the Marquee in March 1967. They definitely played there, and fairly regularly - but not as headliners, as the Clouds website would have you think.
The Marquee had a 4-track studio (which opened in 1967, oddly enough), so it's possible that the band recorded it in the studio and overdubbed the applause. . ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: October 01 2007 at 19:14
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I would be comfortable with the notion that the track was recorded in the Marquee studio and the applause was dubbed on. The reverb on the track does seem to support that - all recordings I've heard from the Marquee club sound like they were recorded in a dustbin
I also don't doubt that they had gigs at the Marquee in 1967 even if they do not show in the Marquee gig list. However if they had a residency (which they do claim) then it would be mentioned on the Marquee website. (see the Marquee http://www.themarqueeclub.net/timeline - timeline )
However, it appears that Clouds had a residency in 1969... and on three occasions as a support band to another Marquee resident band - Yes.
Yes headline with Clouds in support: Wednesday 29/01/69, Wednesday 26/02/69, Wednesday 19/03/69
...It doth seem odd that two bands on the same bill had links to the same cover song. Odder still when the support band is claiming first use with a suspect "live" recording from two years earlier without validated provenance.
I would also question the impartiality of Mr Bowie's testimony - a 19yo (struggling) singer/songwriter is very likely to hype-up a band who is playing one of his songs. ------------- What? |
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: October 02 2007 at 02:54
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^I agree about Bowie, and the testimony itself is somewhat vague. Bowie tries to express himself in academic musical terms, but gets many of these muddled up. Bowie's always been one to champion the underdogs, though - I remember reading a testimonial he wrote about the all-girl American rock band, Fanny that was over the top, considering the MOR rock that the girls played. I seem to remember he said something like "These girls rock like motherf******s".
As to the Marquee dates, Clouds appeared quite regularly in 1968 too, in support slots - as did Yes; http://www.themarqueeclub.net/1968 - http://www.themarqueeclub.net/1968 (look at the bands who played in 1968 and drool!).
Yes also played frequently as their ealier incarnation, Syn; http://www.themarqueeclub.net/1967 - http://www.themarqueeclub.net/1967 - note Clouds' first gig in December - 1-2-3 don't even have a mention, yet the clipiping below clearly shows they played on 25th March. Come to think of it, all of March's Saturday gigs are missing, which is odd, given that Syn occupy every Saturday in April, May and June.
Maybe this is the root source of the grievance over "America" (just guessing).
The band that Clouds supported in December 1967 are interesting, as they became Patto, and are credited on some sites as being one of the earliest bands to merge jazz and rock. http://www.zvents.com/performers/show/23751-timebox - http://www.zvents.com/performers/show/23751-timebox
Their Marquee residency is remarked on at the Dunfermline Ballroom site -
http://www.kinemagigz.com/o.htm#1-2-3 - http://www.kinemagigz.com/'o'.htm#1-2-3 - which in turn references the book "The Tapestry of Delights Revisited" by Vernon Joyson - a book I have oft seen discussed as historically and factually inaccurate, and packed with his own opinions (like so many books on this time period in rock music), but nevertheless an important tome on the subject .On the subject of "America", the song - I covered in earlier posts how it might be possible, and the explanation I have from my contact - which is not implausible.
Oh, and here's the flyer/newspaper clipping (from marmalade-skies, NOT Clouds' website!) - I misread it earler, 1-2-3 actually headlined on Saturday 25th;
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: October 02 2007 at 05:09
I think we are sort of agreeing - progressive music was the original full name, and because I believe the US media was well ahead of the UK media, the use of progressive rock or progressive would there too. My evidence is the first entry in PA's variuous artists section Wowie Zowie: The World Of Progressive Music (1969)- which supports your observation about the breadth of music the term encompassed. And indeed there was this whittling down of bands that qualified as progressive rock - but I'll stick with my 1971/2 date; perhaps it is only with the appearance of PA there has been a re-expansion well beyond what was envisaged in the late 60's wrt acceptable music, (Gibraltar seems to have been much more conservative for a longer time, for instance). ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: October 02 2007 at 05:19
Indeed I've written about Timebox - I saw them at Tolworth's Toby Jug, a few months before they folded. Live they were a fusion of pop/rock with jazz - and they would have been known as a rock -jazz group then, since the base songs they used were pop, but had plenty of scope to expand in the middle sections into jazzy solos - especially in the hands of the mulit-talented Ollie Halsall. As I've said many thime here, I was priveliged(?) to see Ollie do a Keith Moon dismantling of his vibes at the end of the last tune of their set. The problem was Decca Records really constrained what Timebox put out on record - a compilation (I think of all their recordings) was released a few years back, and you really struggle to find compelling evidence they were much more than a talented pop group. With the thought that 1970 was a year of an explosion of ideas on record, and gave the first Patto album as an example, it is perhaps not surprising that Timebox were very adventurous given the chance - i.e. at most gigs. BTW a little known fact: Ollie Halsall did audition (on Holdsworth's recommendation) for lead guitar with the Soft Machine but John Etheridge got the seat . ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: October 02 2007 at 05:21
Sal, in the early days of Fairports, I often read they were England's Jefferson Airplane (and I presume that meant the pre-Grace Slick era Plane). Hence your comment makes some sense. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: October 02 2007 at 08:20
This story is so familiar - that's exactly what I'm getting from the Clouds camp, that the band were so much more live than they were in their recordings, thanks to record company policy - and what I've heard so far is quite a long way from the band in the recording of "America" that we've heard.
Presumably there are many others like this from that time - including my current nomination for Proto-Prog/Proto-Electronic/Proto Space Rock - a US band called Fifty Foot Hose:
Most of the pieces on the album "Cauldron" are approximations of what the band did live, including "Red the Sign Post", a piece that Ritchie Blackmore liked so much, he "borrowed" it to write "Space Trucking".
It's interesting that the album was released on the experimental label, Limelight (part of Mercury records) - if the so-called experimental labels were reeling the bands in as part of a sign-up frenzy for this new music, and then compromising their musical vision to help sales, then that lends some credibility to 1-2-3/Clouds' story.
But then there are potentially hundreds of such "important" bands, from 1966-67, aren't there?
/edit - Grace defeinitely sang on "Surrealistic Pillow" - I'm not familiar with any of their material pre-Grace. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: salmacis
Date Posted: October 02 2007 at 10:22
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I'll give the Eclection album another listen, for sure. The problem with my CD (on Collector's Choice) is that the transfer is diabolical; I'm not good with technical terms but it sounds really compressed to these ears.
I am not familiar with Fifty Foot Hose (have heard of them though), but Blackmore/Deep Purple 'borrowing' their material doesn't surprise me in the least. Look at 'Black Night' which borrows liberally the riff from Blues Magoos' 'We Ain't Got Nothing Yet' and 'Child In Time' which owes a lot to It's A Beautiful Day's 'Bombay Calling'.
And I gave The Artwoods' album 'Art Gallery' a listen, on the subject of Deep Purple. It's nothing all that startling; if this album didn't have Keef Hartley and Jon Lord on it, it would attract far less attention, IMHO. The whole album is made up entirely of cover versions, and whilst this isn't unusual in itself for the period, the interpretations tend to lack flair, IMHO. Jon Lord does have a showpiece though, in a cover version of Jimmy Smith's 'Walk On The Wild Side' which is by far the best track to my ears. Like Manfred Mann, though, they too did jazzy cover versions of pop hits on an EP called 'Jazz In Jeans'. Listening to all these various albums again, it's clear to me that the evolution in this period cannot be tied down to one band, IMHO.
I like the fact that this site is so all-encompassing. I read other prog websites and it seems as if a lot of them don't even listen to or acknowledge anything outside of symphonic prog!
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Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: October 02 2007 at 18:50
| Child in Time was pretty much outright theft. Lord liked playing Bombay Calling during warm-ups and then Ian just started singing with it one day and you know the rest. They ended up calling a live CD, that I think was recorded in India, "Bombay Calling" in a belated pay back. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: October 02 2007 at 20:41
I found it interesting that Soft Machine and Hendrix had the same management in 67 and worked together often: jam sessions, unreleased demos for both the Softies and the Experience, back-ups for other musicians and a tour of the U.S. together. One of the first U.S. jazz musicians to turn up loud and hit the rock clubs was Charles Lloyd, Miles borrowed a lot from him including half of his band. This may have been brought up before, but I believe I once read that John Cale (and friends?) was providing loud dronish background music for Warhol events as early as the mid-60s. |
Posted By: jimmy_row
Date Posted: October 02 2007 at 20:52
Wow, very informative thread you guys; got nothing to add, just...excellent discussion!
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 02:42
I recommend the purchase of "Cauldron", especially for anyone interested in the roots of Prog Rock. Given that it was released a full 2 years before "An Electric Storm", it has some incredibly futuristic sounds on it.
It also has a lot of aimless gliding up and down theremin-type instruments and primitive Hawkwind-like voltage-controlled oscillator noises - but I've yet to hear anything earlier in rock music that is as truly experimental, yet not entirely aimless jamming.
The "songs" aren't much to get excited about - the Silver Apples were better songwriters, but had a more poppy approach - and the riffs are fairly typical of garage bands of the time.
However, listen to the album a few times, and, if you're familiar with music of this period and style, the bits and pieces of structured composition and "proper" jazz experimentation (foundations of Prog) are impressive for a hastily assembled and DIY instrumented rock band, and make them stand out from the Country Joes and Jefferson Airplanes.
And it's a lot of fun! ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 18:40
I.[/QUOTE] Wrong Movements is fascinating for the snippets dropped in. EG Robert Wyatt sitting in with Chicago (Transit Authority). Miles Davis attending shows on the Hendrix tour but watching Machine as well. I occasionally correspond with Brian Hopper (founder member of Wilde Flowers, short lived member of Soft Machine Volume 2 during the period). He had learned that a certain American guitarist and friend of mine was keen to record Hope For Happiness and have at least one Machine member - or its composer - on board. Brian kindly sent me one of his recordings from about 4 years a go (on Voiceprint Records), which has a version of Hope For Happiness with Robert Wyatt singing on it - but very different from the high energy rush that Mike Ratledge gave in the familiar version. Brian told me the new version was arranged and recorded in the style Wilde Flowers used to play the number, slowed down in as a sort of raga (i.e. confirming your comments). ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: October 03 2007 at 19:39
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Thanks for the info, it is enteresting to read how much Wyatt and Jimi jammed together, also Wyatt sings background on a couple of Experience tunes. As for Miles, it seems like maybe he was heading towards a band with Jimi and Larry Young on organ. I got some bootleg tapes off a radio show with Hendrix jamming with Larry Young, they are not great jams, both sound tentative, they probably needed a bassist to fill out the sound.
As for Miles watching Soft Machine, I think he picked up a lot from watching "hippie" bands jam, a friend of mine swears that Miles got his new sound from seeing the Greatful Dead. Needless to say the Soft Machine had much better chops than the Dead. I also liked the old posters that call Pink Floyd "The Pink Floyd". |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 03:19
The Dead started the whole "Jam Band" thing off, from what I can make out - although I suspect the folkies did it too. It's alleged that they got their inspiration from jazz groups, particularly Mingus and Coltrane (info from Wikipedia - could well be inaccurate!).
Wikipedia also links the Dead's style back to Dylan's "plugging in", which is highly possible, since the famous "Acid Tests" that The Warlocks played at began around the same time as Newport (July 1965), and this was the time when their style "metamorphosed".
So the whole jazz/rock thing looks like equal process - each liked stuff that the others were doing, and mixed it all up.
Birth of Prog = July 25th 1965?
------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 05:49
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[QUOTE=Easy Money]Thanks for the info, it is enteresting to read how much Wyatt and Jimi jammed together, also Wyatt sings background on a couple of Experience tunes.
As for Miles watching Soft Machine, I think he picked up a lot from watching "hippie" bands jam, a friend of mine swears that Miles got his new sound from seeing the Greatful Dead. Needless to say the Soft Machine had much better chops than the Dead. QUOTE] The lyrics of Machine Volume Two, find Wyatt "thanking Noel and Mitch & Jim for their exposure to the crowd". Whether it is stated in the biogs, Wrong Movements or Out-Bloody-Rageous, apparently several members of Soft Machine (+Hugh Hopper- then their roadie) ended up as unacknowledged backing vocalists on a few Experience recordings. However, in the hippy spirit Machine were called Harvest Records' houseband, for their appearances on Syd Barrett and Kevin Ayers recordings - while The Pink Floyd regularly lent them their liquid light show.
Too many times I've read that Machine's Third was influenced by Bitches Brew - when recording dates, geography and release dates do indicate to be improbable - whilst Hugh Hopper has denied this vigorous during a phone intereview on my radio show. There was huge cross-fertilisation, more than many realise. Just listen to some of Chick Corea Fender Rhodes playing on the semi-free jazz live recording, (made over a 4 nights residency by), Miles Davis at the Fillmore Hall, and I swear it sounds Ratledge-like, suggesting Corea must have listened/seen Machine. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 08:45
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As the book mentions Soft Machine were into jazz from the very beginning. Before Bitches Brew came out they were already into Monk, Ornette, Mingus and older Miles recordings. I think a lot of jazz rock came from "hippies" who were into jazz but couldn't fit in with the established jazz crowd. Being free spirited and open minded and influenced by Beatles, electric Dylan etc what came out was that fun experimental music later called jazz-rock.
Also, I think when the hippies "discovered" Indian music that opened up a flood gate of droning improvs. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 08:54
Also the presence of Harvey Brooks on bass, the non-jazzer on Brew, seems like a definite attempt to get some genuine hippie vibe on the record. You guys might be familiar with Kooper and Bloomfield's Super Session where Brooks contributes some real nice tunes. |
Posted By: Easy Money
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 08:57
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The birth of Progressive Rock might be that Sandy Bull record with the long jam with Ornette's drummer. I forget the release date.
By the way, are you guys familiar with what John Cale was doing in the early and mid-60s, I believe he was doing drone music for Warhol events, but my recollections are very sketchy. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: October 04 2007 at 10:34
Interesting how Supersession went in to and then firmly out of fashion. Certainly getting a number of "superstars" of the period together, without recording contracts impeding things, is a minor miracle - although it hadn't stopped Clapton or Harrison adopting non de plumes - a follow-up to Supersession, Two Jews Blues actually doesn't name some of the performers. At the time of release the only cringe-worth element was Al Kooper's vocals but fortunately the instrument work dominates. But I note in the liner notes of the Supersession remaster, that some folks moaned about the over-dubbed brass backing so an alternative mix minus the brass is included. However, what was once a joy, now sounds overlong, is Steve Stills' cover of Dovovan's Season Of the Witch - but Stills remains a guitarist I admire. However, I can listen to Mike Bloomfield's blues there until the cows come home. A pity that the double follow-up Live Adventures Of AK & MB wasa complete shambles, dispite being the first recording of Carlos Santana - and lets not talk about the f*** up of the Bruce/Jones composition Sonny Boy Williamson (btw was this on a Manfred Mann album originally?). ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Big T
Date Posted: November 01 2007 at 12:32
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I might be able to help you out with the Clouds background guys. My Uncle is none other than Ian Ellis who was the bass player and founder member of 1-2-3 and then Clouds.
Ian's biography can be seen on http://www.feenstra.co.uk/bands/ianellis/ianellis.htm - http://www.feenstra.co.uk/bands/ianellis/ianellis.htm
I know he still keeps in touch with Harry and Billy from the band.
I personally believe Clouds were the unlucky fall guys of the early Prog Generation. They set the trends but missed out on the success.
I'll send this link over to Ian and I'm sure he would love to help confirm the "hype " is actually genuine.
all the best
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