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Fitzcarraldo 
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 Posted: June 06 2004 at 19:12 |
The definition of avant-garde according to MS Encarta:
| artists with new ideas and methods: writers, artists, film makers, or musicians whose work is innovative, experimental, or unconventional (takes a singular or plural verb) |
adj
| 1. |
artistically new: artistically new, experimental, or unconventional |
| 2. |
of the avant-garde: belonging to the artistically innovative | [Early 20th century. From French , literally ‘before the guard’ (see vanguard).]
I'm not sure that danbo's definition "Avant Garde is playing without rules, such as; basic song structure, traditional instruments, outside the confines of what is considered normal." is the complete story. For example, a band could presumably be avant-garde even if its music has a basic song structure and uses traditional instruments.
And what is avant-garde today is not tomorrow. I tend to agree with Dick Heath: Early Floyd was avant-garde.
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progchain
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Joined: March 26 2004
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Points: 113
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Posted: June 06 2004 at 17:34 |
 philippe wrote:
Hey DICK! about Riley check his 'Organ of Cortis' serie dated from the beginning of the 60s...and you will see what I mean...real visionary music! |
And what about Silver Apples, Morton Subotnick or Fifty Foot Hose?
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philippe
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Posted: June 06 2004 at 16:07 |
Hey DICK! about Riley check his 'Organ of Cortis' serie dated from the beginning of the 60s...and you will see what I mean...real visionary music!
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raleighgranprix
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Joined: May 31 2004
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Posted: June 06 2004 at 12:23 |
danbo wrote:
Avant Garde is playing without rules, such as; basic song structure, traditional instruments, outside the confines of what is considered normal. Listen to David Torn's Best Laid Plans. That is Avant Garde. Totally outside the spectrum of the accepted norms of music.
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By the way, check out, just of what is some traditional Japanese music, you will hear those odd screams going a long way back, in reference to Yoko.
Back to Avant Garde, Andy Warhol was connected to the Velvet Underground, some of that music, seems to fall into the definition above. But the Velvet Underground is often considered "proto-punk", am I getting the terminology correct wanting to say, "pre-punk" types of music.
Edited by raleighgranprix
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"You well heeled big wheel, ha ha, charade you are ... and do you feel abused, down in the pig mine, you're nearly a laugh but you're really a cry ......- PF
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raleighgranprix
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Joined: May 31 2004
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Posted: June 06 2004 at 12:21 |
Seems Hendrix has some of these techniques as well. Also, how about the "b" side, of "they're coming to take me away", just the A-side backwards.
It's like saying there is nothing new under the sun.
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"You well heeled big wheel, ha ha, charade you are ... and do you feel abused, down in the pig mine, you're nearly a laugh but you're really a cry ......- PF
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Dick Heath
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Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
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Points: 12818
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Posted: June 06 2004 at 11:38 |
philippe wrote:
Sorry guy but I can't consider at all the Pink
Floyd and the Beatles as avant-garde...about tape loops, the
revolutionary musician and composer Terry Riley used those kind of
things before... |
You'll note I had already said about Beatles and tape loops,
stemming from George Martin's influence and his pointing the Fab 4 in
the direction of European avant composers. I'm not sure if Terry Riley
would have been known by more than a handful of musicians in the UK in
the mid 60's - but by the end of the 60's it would have been quite
different. Rainbow In Curved Air
was a big hit (Curved Air reported named themselves after the album).
The first half of the famous Soft Machine Proms was a concert of
minimalism played by the likes of Ratledge and (I think, if my memory
is correct), Deep Purple's Jon Lord, amongst about 10 keyboard players
- a Riley composition was played along with one by his British
discipals,Tim Souster. That will help explain Machine's regular use of
minimalism as openings of tunes on subsequent albums. BTW last
week on BBC radio there was a programme about the influence of
Balinese Gamelan music on minimalism -it was suggested an
American composer in the 40's started this and Riley and Glass
acknowledge this. However, I've heard other serious music historians
say that the French impressionist movement (Ravel, Debussy, Sate), at
the start of the 20th Century, were also influenced.
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philippe
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Posted: June 06 2004 at 05:44 |
moonchild wrote:
Dick Heath wrote:
Hammar wrote:
Pink Floyd is not an avant BAND, but have made music I think can be considered avant. Parts of Ummagumma, Saucerful and Interstellar Overdrive?? 
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Nothing like them when they started, so Floyd especially with Barrett, was most certainly avant garde in the mid 60's.
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I agree. For 60s rock music, Pink Floyd and The Beatles stretched the envelope. Remember those backward tape loops in Strawberry Fields?
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Sorry guy but I can't consider at all the Pink Floyd and the Beatles as avant-garde...about tape loops, the revolutionary musician and composer Terry Riley used those kind of things before...
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raleighgranprix
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Joined: May 31 2004
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Posted: June 05 2004 at 22:44 |
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well, again, I was reading some amazon.com reviews, check out, every type of music I've ever listened too, almost, Sparks and I had Sparks Propoganda, I kind of liked it like one might like some silent movies (and after all, they may be silent, but they often had a piano player giving music along with the film, hence, I'm not making some pun here), Harold Lloyd I believe is the famous actor, and in its own right, sort of art rock, but by no means, am I going to say that that music belongs here. Seems someone put a list together of "avant garde" music and Sparks was on it.
Edited by raleighgranprix
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"You well heeled big wheel, ha ha, charade you are ... and do you feel abused, down in the pig mine, you're nearly a laugh but you're really a cry ......- PF
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: June 05 2004 at 21:31 |
I believe we need a definition of Avant Garde, because I we could be naming bands for weeks as a blind man throw stones without any real direction:
| Avant Garde
Etymology: French, vanguard
: an intelligentsia that develops new or experimental concepts especially in the arts |
In this case Progressive Rock is an Avant Garde genre "per se". So are we asking which is the most progressive of all the progressive bands? Isn't this a pleonasm?
If we go to the classic definition that Danbo gave "Avant Garde is playing without rules" then we have a lot of choices:
King Crimson did everything, played a symphonic album, did more experimental music and even dared to set two power trios playing two different and tunes one against the other. Crimson after ITCOTKC is not my cup of tea, but I must recognize they are always ahead everybody else. They are a sub-genre by their own right and Fripp always did what he wanted without respecting any boundary.
From the most recent bands I would go with The Red Masque, they defy any classification, they are dark even creepy and love to include cacophonic passages where the listener looses the concept of reality.
Iván
Edited by ivan_2068
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Foxy
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Joined: April 17 2004
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Points: 60
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Posted: June 05 2004 at 18:49 |
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Forever Einstein and Biota are very good avant-prog bands. I would also mention Centipede which is great.
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Dick Heath
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Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
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Points: 12818
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Posted: June 05 2004 at 10:36 |
moonchild wrote:
Remember those backward tape loops in Strawberry Fields? |
Also remember George Martin was pushing them to listen to
Stockhausen (and there's avant garde for you) and some of those
electronic composers who used loops long before synths came along (e.g.
Pierre Henry. BTW when Milton Subotnik release his album Silver Apples Of the Moon post-Beatles???). [ Revolution No 9 was the main result]. And if my mind serves me well, weren't some of the Strawberry Fields
tape effects there to mask recording problems resulting from Lennon
singing two versions of the tune, both of which were liked/wanted on
the master but they differed in BPM, hence some judicious speeding or
slowing and other trickery. Two other questions:
a) who first used backward guitar on record
b) when did phasing get used first, especially for drumming effects?
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moonchild
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Joined: May 15 2004
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Points: 146
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Posted: June 04 2004 at 20:18 |
Dick Heath wrote:
Hammar wrote:
Pink Floyd is not an avant BAND, but have made music I think can be considered avant. Parts of Ummagumma, Saucerful and Interstellar Overdrive??
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Nothing like them when they started, so Floyd especially with Barrett, was most certainly avant garde in the mid 60's.
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I agree. For 60s rock music, Pink Floyd and The Beatles stretched the envelope. Remember those backward tape loops in Strawberry Fields?
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In the Wake of Poseidon
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Dick Heath
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Joined: April 19 2004
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Points: 12818
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Posted: June 04 2004 at 20:10 |
Hammar wrote:
Pink Floyd is not an avant BAND, but have made
music I think can be considered avant. Parts of Ummagumma, Saucerful
and Interstellar Overdrive??
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Nothing like them when they started, so Floyd especially with Barrett, was most certainly avant garde in the mid 60's.
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Hammar
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Joined: February 13 2004
Location: Norway
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Points: 132
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Posted: June 04 2004 at 18:04 |
Dick Heath wrote:
Hammar wrote:
And the swiss band Island is also magnificant!!
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Great album I would agree - but I was introduced to this by somebody with a much broader prog experience than I, by being told "This is the album Van Der Graaf Generator would have made, if they had kept going". After many plays I haven't come to greatly disagreed with that assessment - so definitely not my idea of avante gard.
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I see the reviews of Island trace similarities towards VDGG. Both bands are dark, but I think VDGG is more symphonic and their use of the Mellotron is more extensive. Island, on the other hand, are experimenting more with difficult time strucures and "unusual" instruments, i.e. vocal harmonies. I think they sound like a lighter (and not as good) version of Univers Zero and some of the french RIO-bands. Maybe the vocalist sounds a little bit like Peter Hammill...
However, I wouldn't have mentioned this band when picking good examples of avant-garde bands.
DoomHammer is not far off with Pink Floyd. Pink Floyd is not an avant BAND, but have made music I think can be considered avant. Parts of Ummagumma, Saucerful and Interstellar Overdrive??
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Dan Bobrowski
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Posted: June 04 2004 at 18:02 |
What about Dick's point? I hold that I may be wrong.
Maybe, ahhh possibly, sort of..... Nah!!!! I'm right. Gotta love that Dick though, a blooming encyclopedia, he is!!!!! 
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The Prognaut
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 14 2004
Location: Somewhere Else
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Points: 1492
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Posted: June 04 2004 at 17:55 |
danbo wrote:
I'm done!!!! 
Anyone else?
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No, thank you! that'll be it You made quite a good point, but if I had to choose between yours and mine... 
So be it!
Regards
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break the circle
reset my head
wake the sleepwalker
and i'll wake the dead
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Dan Bobrowski
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Posted: June 04 2004 at 16:57 |
From Meriam Webster Online: an intelligentsia that develops new or experimental concepts especially in the arts.
My emphasis is on experimental, it's that nature which sets the avant garde musical approach outside the norm, thus experimental. A scale played in a assending or descending pattern is a norm, playing notes outside that scale could be experimental or avant garde, no?
PLP Gothic Imressions does not persue anything I hadn't heard before, so IMHO, not avant garde.
I'm done!!!!
Anyone else?
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Dick Heath
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Location: England
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Points: 12818
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Posted: June 04 2004 at 13:15 |
Dictionary definition of 'avant- garde" (Chamber 20th Century Dictionary): "those who create or support the newest ideas and techniques in an art". Therefore rock that literally progresses is avant-garde. However, free form rock (e.g. RIO) may or may not be avant-garde.
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Dan Bobrowski
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Posted: June 04 2004 at 11:10 |
Avant Garde is playing without rules, such as; basic song structure, traditional instruments, outside the confines of what is considered normal. Listen to David Torn's Best Laid Plans. That is Avant Garde. Totally outside the spectrum of the accepted norms of music.
I've purchased and listened to PLP's Gothic Impressions. It's totally Progressive Rock and very well done, no doubt. I like it. Takes me right to the theater, which is a great thing anytime music can transport you somewhere. But it's not essential in the sense that it changes your view of music or is creating something different.
The STAR system is debatable, we have, many times, over and over, ad naseum, pages and pages, continuously, for months...... Anyway. It's refined to a clear, concise definition (not) that still relies on the reviewers tastes. I'm in the process of updating previous reviews because I relied to heavily on MY tastes and not the strictures of what is ESSENTIAL. Had I not heard the '73-'74 version of King Crimson, many of my musical tastes COULD have been seriously stunted. Those three albums, Lark's Tongues, Starless, and Red, changed my musical outlook and interest. Digging backwards from there I discovered other bands/albums which further developed my musical interests.
Would PLP have existed if not for Keith Emerson and Rick Wakeman? Probably not.
Did Par Lindh take his influence from KE and RW and create a beautiful recording? Yes, he did.
Is it Avant Garde? No.
If you have a strong stomache, listen to some Yoko Ono. That's Avant Garde, bro.
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Dick Heath
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Posted: June 04 2004 at 04:52 |
Hammar wrote:
And the swiss band Island is also magnificant!!
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Great album I would agree - but I was introduced to this by somebody with a much broader prog experience than I, by being told "This is the album Van Der Graaf Generator would have made, if they had kept going". After many plays I haven't come to greatly disagreed with that assessment - so definitely not my idea of avante gard.
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Most avant-garde prog band?
