Most avant-garde prog band?
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Topic: Most avant-garde prog band?
Posted By: philippe
Subject: Most avant-garde prog band?
Date Posted: March 27 2004 at 10:48
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According to you which group has contribuated to the most avant-garde, experimental side of prog music? You can name several if you want...I've my idea about it, but I'm waiting for your answers ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: Alexander
Date Posted: March 27 2004 at 12:43
Well there is Henry Cow, Frank Zappa, Univers Zero, Matching Mole, Soft Machine, & Hugh Hopper. I mean, there are many choices, you just choose who is your favorite!  ------------- On A Dilemmia Between What I Need & What I Just Want 
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Posted By: diddy
Date Posted: March 27 2004 at 13:12
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Dream Theater: Sorry, misunderstood the term avant garde, sorry  ------------- If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear... George Orwell |
Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: March 27 2004 at 14:47
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Are you joking? -------------
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Posted By: Dan Bobrowski
Date Posted: March 27 2004 at 16:02
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Thinking Plague. Zappa, early Gong, even some Umma Gumma era Floyd. Actually, some Crimson stuff would fall into the avant-garde category. |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: March 27 2004 at 20:05
Avant-garde... !------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: March 28 2004 at 05:05
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What's your problem Lucas? Historically, I think of Zappa's Mothers of invention, Tony Conrad, Faust & Kluster...These last definitely killed the traditionnal conceptions of rock music and went further in the possibilities offered by the different musical languages to create something very new. Any others suggestions? -------------
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Posted By: progchain
Date Posted: March 28 2004 at 06:17
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Maybe early Battiato?
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Posted By: diddy
Date Posted: March 28 2004 at 06:53
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I secound the Gong suggestion...
but what does 'early Gong' mean? For me it means that 'you' would be the last album of this 'early Gong'
Gentle Giant ?
Dream Theater: Misunderstood the term Avant garde, sorry ------------- If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear... George Orwell |
Posted By: Hammar
Date Posted: March 28 2004 at 08:06
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Dream Theater is not avant-garde.... My favourites are Univers Zero, Samla Mammas Manna, Henry Cow( and Frith's solo work), the Muffins, Area and Stormy Six. Never heard Thinking Plague, how are they like? If Caravan and Hatfield fit under the avant-garde umbrella I have to include them on my list as well (and Picchio dal Pozzo).... |
Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: March 28 2004 at 08:38
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Many of you talk about Henry Cow...I really enjoy listening 'western culture'. A kind of avant-garde jazz/ fusion with some zappa influences...how old are his first works? I don't remember to have listened albums from him dated before the beginning of the 70s. Can you confirm? -------------
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Posted By: Hammar
Date Posted: March 28 2004 at 09:11
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Well, the three albums I've got are from 1973 and 1974 (LegEnd, Henry Cow and Unrest), I've never heard Western Culture. There are definitely similarities with Frank Zappa. Sometimes Henry Cow has more free improvisation than FZ, which I don't like. Henry Cow is, by the way, a band. The musicians I can remember are Fred Frith and Chris Cutler..
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Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: March 28 2004 at 11:44
| For me it would have to be the German band Nue! |
Posted By: Joren
Date Posted: March 28 2004 at 12:07
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As far as I know: Frank Zappa And The Mothers and Captain Beefheart And The Magic Band!
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Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: March 28 2004 at 12:30
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not Nue! BUT NEU! yes, this one developped post-rock compositions before that the term was coined...The three albums made by the duo are absolute must! -------------
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Vibrationbaby wrote:Posted By: arqwave
Date Posted: March 29 2004 at 00:40
i think my friend: MAGMA, CAN, ZAPPA and BOWIE,  you can tell me your opinion about my thoughts
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Posted By: Paco Fox
Date Posted: March 29 2004 at 02:21
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Oh, yes. You don't really know what suffering is until you buy a record with a 20 minutes composition based in just one (ONE!) chord. I shal repeat it: ONE!!!!!!!. Anyway, I really don't like avant garde. Although there's one very avant garde record I like (there's always an exception to the rule) and it's David Bedford's 'The Rime of the Ancient Mariner'. Maybe it's because I really love Coleridge's poem, and I think this music suits it pretty well (not like the failed Hostsonaten compositions. I like the Iron Maiden song, though
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Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 29 2004 at 03:21
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There's some avante garde ideas on Aphrodite's Child album '666' particularly the track 'infinity' (the ''orgasm song'').Also some of the 'self sampling' on the finale to the album was unusual for it's time. Vangelis has also done a few avante garde solo works - 'Hypothesis' (rare 1971 album on Charly Records), 'Beauborg' (1978) and 'Invisible Connections' (1986).The last one of those mentioned is very strange.Anyone else heard it? |
Posted By: Hammar
Date Posted: March 29 2004 at 03:43
Yes! Never thought about that one. A few tracks on both sides I will consider as avant-garde! It's not a very consistent album, but there are some great moments! Haven't heard the other ones, how are they like? |
Posted By: Dan Bobrowski
Date Posted: March 29 2004 at 12:09
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Thinking Plague:
http://cuneiformrecords.com/bandshtml/thinking.html - http://cuneiformrecords.com/bandshtml/thinking.html
A hard listen, for sure, however, rewarding once you put the pieces together. Thinking Plague requires a lot of active listening, each instrument seams to be dis connected from the whole, but as you start connecting the pieces, it makes sense. I've enjoyed "the History of Madness", however, on a single listen, I would never have bought it. Too insane!!!!!!!! |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: March 29 2004 at 13:16
Me too. And I don't understand how one can "listen" to it. It is so boring and has nothing to do with the ideals of music. Zappa, Varèse, Ligeti, Boulez and other contemporary composers created a "music" that only snobbish people can appreciate. ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Dan Bobrowski
Date Posted: March 29 2004 at 13:30
Instant gratification is great, but not the only way to get some enjoyment. Sometimes it takes a certain amount of mental participation from the listener to achieve a degree of entertainment rather than having it spoon fed to you. Do you prefer to slowly enjoy your meal, taking time to savor the flavors and enjoy the smells, converse and luxuriate in the atmoshere or.... chow down and run? Many approach music in the same way. Give me something complex to breakdown with each listen, Mental Medication. MMMM Please define "snobbish?" Is it anything like PROGHOLE? |
Posted By: Hammar
Date Posted: March 29 2004 at 14:06
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Lucas wrote: Me too. And I don't understand how one can "listen" to it. It is so boring and has nothing to do with the ideals of music. Zappa, Varèse, Ligeti, Boulez and other contemporary composers created a "music" that only snobbish people can appreciate. Where did snobbish people come into context? Hehe, Zappa fans are either freaks or "progholes" (accepted and understood Danbo Listening to Ceux du Dehors is everything but boring. It's some of the most entertaining and thrilling music ever made. Not all avant-garde is interesting (some is boring), however, you have brought albums like King Crimson's Larks' Tongues in Aspic to question. |
Posted By: Alexander
Date Posted: March 29 2004 at 18:53
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Snobbish? Why do you say that? ------------- On A Dilemmia Between What I Need & What I Just Want
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Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: March 30 2004 at 02:33
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OK : music has to be a pleasure for your ears and not a pain, so if I say that only snob people can listen to avant-garde, that's because they belong to a minority that listens to a music that they only can appreciate (in spite of themselves and their ears I suppose). But maybe it's not the right word to qualify these people. To Danbo : snob here can be assimilated to "proghole". ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Paco Fox
Date Posted: March 30 2004 at 02:34
Mmm... but, for me, it lacks emotional appeal. It's like conceptual art. I can understand it in its complex layers of meaning, but it fails to move me. I understand what Duchamp meant when he put that toilet at an exposition, but that doesn't move me a bit. One thing is mental participation and attention to what it's being said (Close to the Edge) and another is trying to listen to a dodecaphonic composition or a Battiato one chord album. Avant Garde was the musical manifestation of the vanguards of the 20th century, and, as all other forms of vanguards, it ended up failing when they took thiings to a dead end (I repeat, a one note album, a 'classical' compoosition with only silence), losing the audience on their way of expanding the boundaries of art. That's not saying it was useless. Great aesthetic ideas were born and adopted. Take some avant-garde, for instance, and how it developed into, for example, film music. There will no be music for The Silence of the Lambs without the works of avant garde composers. And no Lair of Shelob either! |
Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: March 30 2004 at 04:44
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Sorry Lucas bur I think that too structured songs tend to be boring after several listenings...it's not the case with Zappa, Parmeggiani, Conrad and others...each listening is new... -------------
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Posted By: Dan Bobrowski
Date Posted: March 30 2004 at 11:08
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Amen |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 30 2004 at 14:52
'666' was their only remotely prog sounding album.Before that they were just a conventional sixties 'pop' group that for some reason was big on the continent.It's strange to think that Demis Rousos essentially became just the bass player on '666' as he only sang on a couple of tracks! BTW It was the strength of this album that nearly got Vangelis the 'gig' in Yes to replace Rick Wakeman around about 1974.
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Posted By: Dan Bobrowski
Date Posted: March 30 2004 at 15:46
I don't enjoy ALL avant-garde, probably not even a majority of the genre. The bits I do like, intrigue me. There is a fine line between art and trash and it's all about individual taste. Now there are those who like, or pretend to like, something avant-garde, because they are think they will be percieved as "hip" or chic or whatever. Have you heard David Torn's "Best Laid Plans"? I would classify that as avant-garde. Totally improvised with no real song structure, but it appeals to me. I can't really explain why or what it touches in me, but..... it does. PROGHOLES UNITE!!!!!!!!!!! |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: April 01 2004 at 07:06
| HENRY COW |
Posted By: The Owl
Date Posted: April 01 2004 at 11:28
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Avant Bands of Note for this Owl: Thinking Plague Bone Shubb Niggurath Skeleton Key Zappa/Mothers No Secrets In The Family Present Univers Zero Area Miriodor Cartoon Sleepytime Gorilla Museum PFS279 RUINS Happy Family Captain Beefheart ------------- People are puzzled why I don't dig the Stones, well, I listened to the Stones, I tried, and I tried, and I tried, and--I Can't Get No Satisfaction! www.myspace.com/theowlsmusic |
Posted By: Glass-Prison
Date Posted: April 01 2004 at 17:44
| I have always had a sort of fetish with kraut rock. the music sounds so improvised, and yet so emotional(sometimes). Can is a very interesting group, and would probably be my choice for best avant-garde band. Tago-Mago is their greatest album. |
Posted By: Velvetclown
Date Posted: April 02 2004 at 12:59
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Well this clown sure is a snob, I even listen to the Kronos Quartet...Out demons out !!!!
Zappa, Univers Zero and Miriodor...WOW what a bunch |
Posted By: Dan Bobrowski
Date Posted: April 02 2004 at 13:03
AGREED. Cheers snobs. |
Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: April 04 2004 at 15:31
I hate David Torn's playing ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: Fitzcarraldo
Date Posted: April 30 2004 at 21:21
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Whether one loves or hates them, surely Deus Ex Machina has to be one of the most avant-garde prog bands? Both in terms of the structure of the music and the fact that many of their songs are in Latin? |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: April 30 2004 at 23:04
"The best laid schemes o' mice and men gang aft a-gley:" Robbie Burns
(Later quoted in the Steinbeck novel title.... Some of these old musicians read great literature.) ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
(The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry.")Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: April 30 2004 at 23:20
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Re David Torn, I saw him live in a great venue with David Sylvian. The guy is a monster abstract expressionist on the trumpet! Check out the extended live version of Bruford, Levin & Torn - "Original Sin." Absolutely scary-killer jazz fusion! Mind-blowing!
------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
You can't just write off Torn, or avant garde. The genre is rather broad (and, like prog, undefined), and quite important to the history of music!Posted By: Bjørn Are
Date Posted: May 03 2004 at 06:51
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I would guess AG depends on the year. What was avant in 1967 or 1976 is not quite so avant no, or a dead end. 1966: Beatles and Beach Boys (not joking 1967: Beatles, Zappa and Vanilla Fudge 1968: Beatles and The Nice. 1969: Beatles, Led Zeppelin and King Crimson 1970: Beatles, Gentle Giant and ELP ....... 2004: Mars Volta? No, not really. The best of the still strange sounding AG-bands? Well, not really sure, at least I would mention Henry Cow, 5uu, Van der Graaf and Hatfield and the North.
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Posted By: moonchild
Date Posted: June 02 2004 at 14:05
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Most avant-garde band? Pierrot Lunaire > Gudrun Opus Avantra > Introspezione Area > Are(a)zione Zamla Mammas Manna > Familesprickor If you can find groups that are more avant-garde please let me know. This music is an acquired taste and people have been known to have left the room screaming upon hearing either of them ------------- In the Wake of Poseidon |
Posted By: DoomHammer
Date Posted: June 02 2004 at 14:22
Pink Floyd?  ------------- when i sell my life story, maybe i should write it first and do the living later 'cause life is so much cleaner on the page |
Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: June 02 2004 at 14:36
try again! -------------
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Posted By: Radioactive Toy
Date Posted: June 02 2004 at 14:38
the first (2) minutes from close to the edge sounds a bit avantgare too -------------  
Reed's failed joke counter: ||||| R.I.P. You could have reached infinity.... |
Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: June 02 2004 at 14:44
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...too short and insignificant for me -------------
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Posted By: Radioactive Toy
Date Posted: June 02 2004 at 15:00
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at least i tried -------------
Reed's failed joke counter: ||||| R.I.P. You could have reached infinity.... |
Posted By: DoomHammer
Date Posted: June 02 2004 at 17:20
What do you mean by avant-garde anyway ??  ------------- when i sell my life story, maybe i should write it first and do the living later 'cause life is so much cleaner on the page |
Posted By: moonchild
Date Posted: June 02 2004 at 17:48
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1. Playing musical instruments in an unusual way (i.e plucking piano strings, using a violin bow on a guitar, etc.) or 2. composing song structure in a base of (fill in the blank, i.e. jazz, rock, classical) then interposing it with a completely different musical form to create a jarring effect upon the ears. 3. haphazard non-musical tones interspersed with musical ones. ------------- In the Wake of Poseidon |
Posted By: diddy
Date Posted: June 02 2004 at 18:10
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Hey Phillipe, you once mentioned ENO...today I saw an auction for "Music for Films" and remembered the thread you once made...I LOST the auction
 unfortunately...Does ENO count as Avant-Garde? ------------- If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear... George Orwell |
Posted By: Dan Bobrowski
Date Posted: June 02 2004 at 19:22
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Eno is ambient. Avant Garde is more of a creative genre where basic song structures and the verse chorus-verse-type approach is not used. Unusual instrumentation, dissonance, noises, burps, farts, whatever..... are used to construct "pieces" which may or may not be pleasing. It is defintely an acquired taste. SOME prog bands have aspects of Avant Garde in their style, such as King Crimson, RIO bands, Soft Machine, Henry Cow, Thinking Plague....
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: June 03 2004 at 05:23
In the literal sense any prog band who released albums before 1972.
However, I have to take you to task for including Led Z - they followed on from Jeff Beck (Truth and Cosa Nostra Beckola ). Read the liner notes of the twoforone CD of these albums and discover how angry Jeff Beck was when he heard LZ demos his mate Jimmy Page had produced - after attending these recording sessions - John Paul Jones is in some of Beck's line-ups.
And stick with your guns wrt Mars Volta.................. |
Posted By: diddy
Date Posted: June 03 2004 at 06:45
Hmm so Guru Guru for example often sounds like "noise" but it's very interesting...example their song UFO...maybe that's a kind of avant garde...
...I begin to understand (if that was right...)------------- If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear... George Orwell |
Posted By: Hammar
Date Posted: June 03 2004 at 06:54
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I have finally listened to Thinking Plague, and it's Brilliante!!
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Posted By: lucas
Date Posted: June 03 2004 at 09:15
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I believe Franco Battiato released some avant-garde music in the seventies (?). ------------- "Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood) |
Posted By: DoomHammer
Date Posted: June 03 2004 at 09:32
If that means using a dog to sing along then definitely Pink Floyd ------------- when i sell my life story, maybe i should write it first and do the living later 'cause life is so much cleaner on the page |
Posted By: progchain
Date Posted: June 03 2004 at 13:49
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Just in the seventies... listen to "Sulle corde di Aries" or "Clic"... Prog meets Stockhausen meets mediterraneans sounds.... |
Posted By: The Prognaut
Date Posted: June 03 2004 at 15:23
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PÄR LINDH PROJECT. ( Check out my review upon their debut album "Gothic Impressions" and lemme know what you all think... Regards, Land ------------- break the circle reset my head wake the sleepwalker and i'll wake the dead |
Posted By: Dan Bobrowski
Date Posted: June 03 2004 at 21:32
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Over rated. Sorry, but I felt the disc sounds like an opera and though I appreciate the music, the vocals are meagor.... Clearly not deserving of 5 stars. Don't get me wrong, I bought it because of all the hoopla on the forum, but it lacks. Over-Dramatic would be my honest opinion. 3 stars. It's not essential. It's not Avant-Garde either. |
Posted By: The Prognaut
Date Posted: June 03 2004 at 23:09
Thanx for your words and your time! Appreciate it man! Maybe I'm way too into Scandinavian prog or it maybe be a matter of appreciation, dunno really! but believe me, your true comments help a lot, it's all about the feedback in here! Question: what is it that you consider Avant-Garde??? not the Webster's definition, not the internet cut and paste, I wanna hear you! Peace, Land ------------- break the circle reset my head wake the sleepwalker and i'll wake the dead |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: June 04 2004 at 04:52
Great album I would agree - but I was introduced to this by somebody with a much broader prog experience than I, by being told "This is the album Van Der Graaf Generator would have made, if they had kept going". After many plays I haven't come to greatly disagreed with that assessment - so definitely not my idea of avante gard. |
Posted By: Dan Bobrowski
Date Posted: June 04 2004 at 11:10
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Avant Garde is playing without rules, such as; basic song structure, traditional instruments, outside the confines of what is considered normal. Listen to David Torn's Best Laid Plans. That is Avant Garde. Totally outside the spectrum of the accepted norms of music. I've purchased and listened to PLP's Gothic Impressions. It's totally Progressive Rock and very well done, no doubt. I like it. Takes me right to the theater, which is a great thing anytime music can transport you somewhere. But it's not essential in the sense that it changes your view of music or is creating something different. The STAR system is debatable, we have, many times, over and over, ad naseum, pages and pages, continuously, for months...... Anyway. It's refined to a clear, concise definition (not) that still relies on the reviewers tastes. I'm in the process of updating previous reviews because I relied to heavily on MY tastes and not the strictures of what is ESSENTIAL. Had I not heard the '73-'74 version of King Crimson, many of my musical tastes COULD have been seriously stunted. Those three albums, Lark's Tongues, Starless, and Red, changed my musical outlook and interest. Digging backwards from there I discovered other bands/albums which further developed my musical interests. Would PLP have existed if not for Keith Emerson and Rick Wakeman? Probably not. Did Par Lindh take his influence from KE and RW and create a beautiful recording? Yes, he did. Is it Avant Garde? No. If you have a strong stomache, listen to some Yoko Ono. That's Avant Garde, bro. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: June 04 2004 at 13:15
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Dictionary definition of 'avant- garde" (Chamber 20th Century Dictionary): "those who create or support the newest ideas and techniques in an art". Therefore rock that literally progresses is avant-garde. However, free form rock (e.g. RIO) may or may not be avant-garde.
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Posted By: Dan Bobrowski
Date Posted: June 04 2004 at 16:57
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From Meriam Webster Online: an intelligentsia that develops new or experimental concepts especially in the arts. My emphasis is on experimental, it's that nature which sets the avant garde musical approach outside the norm, thus experimental. A scale played in a assending or descending pattern is a norm, playing notes outside that scale could be experimental or avant garde, no? PLP Gothic Imressions does not persue anything I hadn't heard before, so IMHO, not avant garde. I'm done!!!! Anyone else? |
Posted By: The Prognaut
Date Posted: June 04 2004 at 17:55
No, thank you! that'll be it So be it! Regards ------------- break the circle reset my head wake the sleepwalker and i'll wake the dead |
Posted By: Dan Bobrowski
Date Posted: June 04 2004 at 18:02
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What about Dick's point? I hold that I may be wrong. Maybe, ahhh possibly, sort of..... Nah!!!! I'm right. Gotta love that Dick though, a blooming encyclopedia, he is!!!!! |
Posted By: Hammar
Date Posted: June 04 2004 at 18:04
I see the reviews of Island trace similarities towards VDGG. Both bands are dark, but I think VDGG is more symphonic and their use of the Mellotron is more extensive. Island, on the other hand, are experimenting more with difficult time strucures and "unusual" instruments, i.e. vocal harmonies. I think they sound like a lighter (and not as good) version of Univers Zero and some of the french RIO-bands. Maybe the vocalist sounds a little bit like Peter Hammill... However, I wouldn't have mentioned this band when picking good examples of avant-garde bands. DoomHammer is not far off with Pink Floyd. Pink Floyd is not an avant BAND, but have made music I think can be considered avant. Parts of Ummagumma, Saucerful and Interstellar Overdrive??
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: June 04 2004 at 20:10
Nothing like them when they started, so Floyd especially with Barrett, was most certainly avant garde in the mid 60's. |
Posted By: moonchild
Date Posted: June 04 2004 at 20:18
I agree. For 60s rock music, Pink Floyd and The Beatles stretched the envelope. Remember those backward tape loops in Strawberry Fields? ------------- In the Wake of Poseidon |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: June 05 2004 at 10:36
Also remember George Martin was pushing them to listen to Stockhausen (and there's avant garde for you) and some of those electronic composers who used loops long before synths came along (e.g. Pierre Henry. BTW when Milton Subotnik release his album Silver Apples Of the Moon post-Beatles???). [Revolution No 9 was the main result]. And if my mind serves me well, weren't some of the Strawberry Fields tape effects there to mask recording problems resulting from Lennon singing two versions of the tune, both of which were liked/wanted on the master but they differed in BPM, hence some judicious speeding or slowing and other trickery. Two other questions: a) who first used backward guitar on record b) when did phasing get used first, especially for drumming effects? |
Posted By: Foxy
Date Posted: June 05 2004 at 18:49
| Forever Einstein and Biota are very good avant-prog bands. I would also mention Centipede which is great. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: June 05 2004 at 21:31
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I believe we need a definition of Avant Garde, because I we could be naming bands for weeks as a blind man throw stones without any real direction:
Etymology: French, vanguard In this case Progressive Rock is an Avant Garde genre "per se". So are we asking which is the most progressive of all the progressive bands? Isn't this a pleonasm? If we go to the classic definition that Danbo gave "Avant Garde is playing without rules" then we have a lot of choices: King Crimson did everything, played a symphonic album, did more experimental music and even dared to set two power trios playing two different and tunes one against the other. Crimson after ITCOTKC is not my cup of tea, but I must recognize they are always ahead everybody else. They are a sub-genre by their own right and Fripp always did what he wanted without respecting any boundary. From the most recent bands I would go with The Red Masque, they defy any classification, they are dark even creepy and love to include cacophonic passages where the listener looses the concept of reality. Iván |
Posted By: raleighgranprix
Date Posted: June 05 2004 at 22:44
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well, again, I was reading some amazon.com reviews, check out, every type of music I've ever listened too, almost, Sparks and I had Sparks Propoganda, I kind of liked it like one might like some silent movies (and after all, they may be silent, but they often had a piano player giving music along with the film, hence, I'm not making some pun here), Harold Lloyd I believe is the famous actor, and in its own right, sort of art rock, but by no means, am I going to say that that music belongs here. Seems someone put a list together of "avant garde" music and Sparks was on it. ------------- "You well heeled big wheel, ha ha, charade you are ... and do you feel abused, down in the pig mine, you're nearly a laugh but you're really a cry ......- PF |
Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: June 06 2004 at 05:44
Sorry guy but I can't consider at all the Pink Floyd and the Beatles as avant-garde...about tape loops, the revolutionary musician and composer Terry Riley used those kind of things before... -------------
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: June 06 2004 at 11:38
You'll note I had already said about Beatles and tape loops, stemming from George Martin's influence and his pointing the Fab 4 in the direction of European avant composers. I'm not sure if Terry Riley would have been known by more than a handful of musicians in the UK in the mid 60's - but by the end of the 60's it would have been quite different. Rainbow In Curved Air was a big hit (Curved Air reported named themselves after the album). The first half of the famous Soft Machine Proms was a concert of minimalism played by the likes of Ratledge and (I think, if my memory is correct), Deep Purple's Jon Lord, amongst about 10 keyboard players - a Riley composition was played along with one by his British discipals,Tim Souster. That will help explain Machine's regular use of minimalism as openings of tunes on subsequent albums. BTW last week on BBC radio there was a programme about the influence of Balinese Gamelan music on minimalism -it was suggested an American composer in the 40's started this and Riley and Glass acknowledge this. However, I've heard other serious music historians say that the French impressionist movement (Ravel, Debussy, Sate), at the start of the 20th Century, were also influenced. |
Posted By: raleighgranprix
Date Posted: June 06 2004 at 12:21
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Seems Hendrix has some of these techniques as well. Also, how about the "b" side, of "they're coming to take me away", just the A-side backwards. It's like saying there is nothing new under the sun.
------------- "You well heeled big wheel, ha ha, charade you are ... and do you feel abused, down in the pig mine, you're nearly a laugh but you're really a cry ......- PF |
Posted By: raleighgranprix
Date Posted: June 06 2004 at 12:23
By the way, check out, just of what is some traditional Japanese music, you will hear those odd screams going a long way back, in reference to Yoko. Back to Avant Garde, Andy Warhol was connected to the Velvet Underground, some of that music, seems to fall into the definition above. But the Velvet Underground is often considered "proto-punk", am I getting the terminology correct wanting to say, "pre-punk" types of music. ------------- "You well heeled big wheel, ha ha, charade you are ... and do you feel abused, down in the pig mine, you're nearly a laugh but you're really a cry ......- PF |
Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: June 06 2004 at 16:07
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Hey DICK! about Riley check his 'Organ of Cortis' serie dated from the beginning of the 60s...and you will see what I mean...real visionary music! -------------
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Posted By: progchain
Date Posted: June 06 2004 at 17:34
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And what about Silver Apples, Morton Subotnick or Fifty Foot Hose? |
Posted By: Fitzcarraldo
Date Posted: June 06 2004 at 19:12
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The definition of avant-garde according to MS Encarta:
adj
I'm not sure that danbo's definition "Avant Garde is playing without rules, such as; basic song structure, traditional instruments, outside the confines of what is considered normal." is the complete story. For example, a band could presumably be avant-garde even if its music has a basic song structure and uses traditional instruments. And what is avant-garde today is not tomorrow. I tend to agree with Dick Heath: Early Floyd was avant-garde.
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Posted By: Dan Bobrowski
Date Posted: June 06 2004 at 20:28
Thank you Fitz, you fleshed out the whole story. Combining this definition with maani's definition of Progressive rock, a band would have to consciously be involved in attempting to, or accomplishing, something new in an innovative way with each release, the goal of constantly being original and reinventing itself EVERY TIME. Fripp has constantly reinvented KC, but on a three or four album revolution. I agree that much of KC's catalogue is avant garde. Are they an avant garde band? Hmmmmm. 
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Posted By: philippe
Date Posted: June 07 2004 at 03:49
Interesting list progchain!! -------------
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...For proto-electronic rock (but in an instrumental way contrary to Silver Apples) check also Conrad Schnitzler, Moebius...Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: June 08 2004 at 11:13
Few and then far between, Terry Riley albums seems to come my way. Found an import CD of Riley/Cale's "Church Of Anthrax" 2nd hand, and then seen advertised albums by small string orchetras playing arrangements of Riley's work. So thanks for a name to go at, it is appreciated. I'll have to dig out (I think) the first Monk album done for ECM - I remember liking it but guilty of forgetting it (with my shift from vinyl -sans record player temporarily - to CD). BTW ECM issued a very atypical album for them, Heiner Goebbels "Man In The Elevator" about the same time, which is most interesting. http://www.geocities.co.jp/Broadway/6763/goebbels.html - http://www.geocities.co.jp/Broadway/6763/goebbels.html |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: June 08 2004 at 11:19
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Just checking out Terry Riley's catalogue (3 albums!!!) at Amazon.Uk (sorry Frankie) and found this reviewer's list - looks interesting as one covering a certain aspect of avant garde recordings: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/2KU3ZTU41WS4R/qid=1086708113/sr=5-2/ref=sr_5_10_2/026-1077964-5649255 - http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse /-/2KU3ZTU41WS4R/qid=1086708113/sr=5-2/ref=sr_5_10_2/026-107 7964-5649255
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Posted By: Fitzcarraldo
Date Posted: June 16 2004 at 16:08
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According to the site http://www.pinkfloyd-co.com/disco/umma/umma_trivia.html - http://www.pinkfloyd-co.com/disco/umma/umma_trivia.html a hidden message can be heard in Ummagumma's "Several Species..." at 4:32-4:33. To hear it, play the LP at half speed and in the right speaker you will hear "This is pretty avant garde, isn't it?". The Web site give a sound sample of this. I don't have the LP anymore, so can anyone with the LP confirm this?
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Posted By: DoomHammer
Date Posted: June 17 2004 at 18:13
I read about this in many sites, and yesterday i asked a friend that has the LP, and he confirmed it ------------- when i sell my life story, maybe i should write it first and do the living later 'cause life is so much cleaner on the page |
Posted By: Joren
Date Posted: June 18 2004 at 07:15
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funny! I have the song on CD, so maybe I can 'ripp' it to my PC and then reduce the speed with an audio program... |
Posted By: zappa123
Date Posted: July 18 2004 at 11:20
| ZAPPA isn't avant garde.He's unique.We would have to invent a new word for his work.Zappa is ZAPPA GARDE. |
Posted By: threefates
Date Posted: July 18 2004 at 14:03
ahh.. avante garde.. another definition no one can totally agree on. I do agree with Ivan on King Crimson. Fripp has made a life-time career on being avante-garde... in his music and his personal life. I also have to agree on Pink Floyd. During 1969 when Ummagumma was released, that studio side was extremely avante garde... "Several Species of Small Furry Animals Gathered Together in a Cave and Grooving with a Pict"... now that was weird... of course, I was 12 in 1969... so my idea of avante garde was a little contentious to say the least. Even on Meddle.. listening to Echoes... Roger Waters made an instrument out of his screaming... How AV... ------------- THIS IS ELP 
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Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: July 18 2004 at 19:38
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I mainly got into progressive rock because I like weird sounds In classical and jazz, avant-garde generally refers to a deliberate attempt to make music without conventional instrumentation, and/or with dissonant, discordant, arrythmic compositions. "Several Species" (and much of Ummagumma) qualifies, as does a good chunk of Crimson's more improvisational tracks, plenty of psychedelia, and Zappa's more Varese-influenced moods. In fact, Zappa once said something like "the best thing about rock music is that you can get people to listen to sounds they wouldn't be exposed to anywhere else." That urge seems to have left progressive rock gradually as time swept it farther away from its psychedelic origins, handing the gauntlet over to the punk-influenced groups (Sonic Youth, Einsterzende Neubauten, and some much more off-the-wall) and the electronic experimentors (the Warp Records artists, FSOL, etc). My personal modern avant-garde favorite is Negativland, which is more sound collage than music. IMAO, once progressive rock gets too avant-garde it ceases to be progressive rock...not necessarily a bad thing, just beyond our focus genre here. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi"> 
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Posted By: Tauhd Zaïa
Date Posted: July 19 2004 at 05:21
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According some definitions of "Avant-Garde" that I read here, may I suggest : - Laurie Anderson (innovative both visualy and musicaly) - Coil - Art Zoyd - Tatsuya Yoshida (Ruins and a lot of other projects) - and why not Björk ------------- The State Of Grace Is Achieved |
Posted By: Tauhd Zaïa
Date Posted: July 19 2004 at 06:15
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and I remember in the eighties : Virgin Prunes ------------- The State Of Grace Is Achieved |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: July 19 2004 at 07:41
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Zappa (Burnt weeny sandwich, gran wazzo and waka jawaka period) and Henry cow are the most avant-garde |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: July 19 2004 at 08:49
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No-one has yet mentioned the original avant-garde-iste himself, John Cage? Inventor of the prepared piano (using clothes pegs and rubber bands, among other objects), the "goldfish" compositional method and the creator of the world's first piece of music that contains no notes. Makes "modern" artists who create works of art by not creating works of art look pretty stupid, since he did that waaay back in 1933 TRACY EMIN! Onto bands, I reckon Amon Duul and the Incredible String Band are pretty avant-garde, and you only have to listen to some of the live albums to realise that Gong were even more creative on the road than they were in the studio. Sides 3 and 4 of Ummagumma definitely fit this category, in support of those crying "Floyd", and while Zappa could be right at the bleeding edge, he was sooo talented that he didn't stop there. I agree with the sentiment that Zappa should have his very own category - there's simply no-one to compare! Tauhd - why not Bjork indeed! She's very experimental, I'll give her that! |
Posted By: Joren
Date Posted: July 19 2004 at 13:44
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Björk is experimental, but it's pop music, can that be avant-garde? And, BTW: shouldn't avant-garde be against the establishment? I'm not sure if I know the right definition... |
Posted By: progchain
Date Posted: July 19 2004 at 16:05
And what about Pere Ubu?
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Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: July 19 2004 at 16:53
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Joren: Just because Bjork had some pop hits, it's a bit unfair to categorise her as "pop music", IMO - that's a bit like categorising Marillion, Genesis, Yes, Hawkwind and Zappa as pop bands just because they had hit singles.
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Posted By: James Lee
Date Posted: July 20 2004 at 05:54
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Robert Graettinger- the avant-garde jazz master "City of Glass" has just been re-released as part of a Stan Kenton CD series ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/sollipsist/?chartstyle=kaonashi">
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Posted By: berlinka
Date Posted: August 31 2004 at 12:03
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CARDIACS is the band EVERYone should listen to. This band surpasses Zappa by miles. And I don't say this easily for I own almost all Zappa cd's. Cardiacs dudes. Anyone got more bands like these. (Cardiacs sound like zappa/genesis/gong/sex pistols - but likely it's not sh*tty metal - it's more like manical circus pop with alot of frills spills and chills) Listen! * reading the above topic by the way - how great there are more Greattinger listeners. I own that CD and been to a concert of his music. Wowyee.Anyone listened to some Conlon Nancarrow? The Ensemble Modern played some stuff of his which was intended actually for Pianola (a sort of automatic pianoroll-device. Hmmm love that stuff) |
Posted By: gdub411
Date Posted: August 31 2004 at 14:46
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Guys....you have about 15 definitions of Avant Garde...I'll break it down into simpler terms for you: Music ahead of your time!! Heck it doesn't even necessarily have to break down into music. It could be writings or even architecture Pink Floyd,the Beatles and many others(including those outside of prog) all fall into this catagory. To define someone who listens to Henry Cow or Zappa as snobbish or a Proghole is silly. Progressive Rock as a whole is an elitist movement made by elitist(or pretentious) musicians for elitist fans such as myself. Of course it is pretentious. People often call my tastes as pretentious and I just answer "yup...and I also happen to know it is better than the simple minded Lemmee pop sludge that you you listen to. Lets face it.....We're all snobs!!! |