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Frasse 
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Joined: November 22 2004
Location: Sweden
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Points: 758
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 Posted: October 20 2006 at 17:36 |
 infandous wrote:
For what it's worth, here is the RIAA top selling albums of all time. You will notice there is no Genesis......but Phil gets in there with one album. And Pink Floyd is well represented. But really, Eagles Greatest Hits??????? What a pathetic sign of peoples musical interest.
The Recording Industry Association of America's Top-Selling Albums of All Time*
29 Million
- Eagles: Their Greatest Hits, 1971–1975, Eagles (Asylum)
27 Million
- Thriller, Michael Jackson (Epic)
23 Million
- Led Zeppelin IV, Led Zeppelin (Atlantic)
- The Wall, Pink Floyd (Columbia)
21 Million
- Greatest Hits, Volumes I & II, Billy Joel (Columbia)
- Back in Black, AC/DC (Epic)
20 Million
- Double Live, Garth Brooks (Capitol Nashville)
- Come On Over, Shania Twain (Mercury Nashville)
19 Million
- The Beatles, The Beatles (Capitol)
- Rumours, Fleetwood Mac (Warner Bros.)
17 Million
- The Bodyguard (soundtrack), Whitney Houston (Arista)
- Boston, Boston (Epic)
16 Million
- Physical Graffiti, Led Zeppelin (Swan Song)
- The Beatles: 1967–1970, The Beatles (Capitol)
- Greatest Hits, Elton John (Island/Mercury)
- Hotel California, Eagles (Elektra)
- Cracked Rear View, Hootie & the Blowfish (Atlantic)
- No Fences, Garth Brooks (Capitol Nashville)
- Jagged Little Pill, Alanis Morissette (Maverick)
15 Million
- Appetite for Destruction, Guns 'N Roses (Geffen)
- Dark Side of the Moon, Pink Floyd (Capitol)
- Saturday Night Fever (soundtrack), Bee Gees (Polydor/Atlas)
- Born in the U.S.A., Bruce Springsteen (Columbia)
- The Beatles: 1962–1966, The Beatles (Capitol)
- Supernatural, Santana (Arista)
14 Million
- Metallica, Metallica (Elektra)
- Simon & Garfunkel's Greatest Hits, Simon & Garfunkel (Columbia)
- …Baby One More Time, Britney Spears (Jive)
- Greatest Hits, Journey (Capitol)
- Bat Out of Hell, Meat Loaf (Epic)
- Backstreet Boys, Backstreet Boys (Jive)
- Ropin' the Wind, Garth Brooks (Capitol Nashville)
13 Million
- Purple Rain (soundtrack), Prince and the Revolution (Warner Bros.)
- Greatest Hits: 1974–1978, Steve Miller Band (Capitol)
- Millennium, Backstreet Boys (Jive)
- Bruce Springsteen & the E Street Band Live: 1975–1985 (box set), Bruce Springsteen & the E Street Band (Columbia)
- Whitney Houston, Whitney Houston (Arista)
12 Million
- Led Zeppelin II, Led Zeppelin (Atlantic)
- Abbey Road, The Beatles (Capitol)
- No Jacket Required, Phil Collins (Atlantic)
- The Woman in Me, Shania Twain (Mercury Nashville)
- Ten, Pearl Jam (Epic)
- Forrest Gump (soundtrack) (Epic)
- Wide Open Spaces, Dixie Chicks (Monument)
- Yourself or Someone Like You, Matchbox Twenty (Atlantic)
- Hot Rocks, The Rolling Stones (abkco)
- II, Boyz II Men (Motown)
- Kenny Rogers's Greatest Hits, Kenny Rogers (Capitol Nashville)
- Slippery When Wet, Bon Jovi (Mercury)
- Hysteria, Def Leppard (Mercury)
- Breathless, Kenny G (Arista)
- Pieces of You, Jewel (Atlantic)
11 Million
- Up!, Shania Twain (Mercury Nashville)
- Human Clay, Creed (Wind-Up Records)
- CrazySexyCool, TLC (LaFace)
- Dirty Dancing (soundtrack) (RCA)
- Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, The Beatles (Capitol)
- James Taylor's Greatest Hits, James Taylor (Warner Bros.)
- Eagles Greatest Hits, Vol. II, Eagles (Elektra)
- Falling into You, Celine Dion (Epic)
- No Strings Attached, 'N Sync (Jive)
- Devil Without a Cause, Kid Rock (Lava)
- Houses of the Holy, Led Zeppelin (Atlantic)
- Titanic (soundtrack) (Sony Classical)
10 Million
- 'N Sync, 'N Sync (RCA)
- Life After Death, Notorious B.I.G. (Bad Boy/Arista)
- Let's Talk About Love, Celine Dion (550 Music/Epic)
- Aerosmith's Greatest Hits, Aerosmith (Columbia)
- Led Zeppelin, Led Zeppelin (Atlantic)
- Greatest Hits, Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers (MCA)
- The Stranger, Billy Joel (Columbia)
- The Immaculate Collection, Madonna (Warner Bros.)
- Fly, Dixie Chicks (Monument)
- Eliminator, ZZ Top (Warner Bros.)
- Best of the Doobies, Doobie Brothers (Warner Bros.)
- Van Halen, Van Halen (Warner Bros.)
- Faith, George Michael (Columbia)
- Music Box, Mariah Carey (Columbia)
- Like a Virgin, Madonna (Sire)
- Unplugged, Eric Clapton (Reprise)
- Can't Slow Down, Lionel Richie (Motown)
- Please Hammer Don't Hurt 'Em, Hammer (Capitol)
- Tapestry, Carole King (Ode)
- The Lion King (Soundtrack) (Walt Disney)
- The Joshua Tree, U2 (Island)
- Nevermind, Nirvana (DGC)
- Legend, Bob Marley & the Wailers (Island)
- Tragic Kingdom, No Doubt (Trauma/Interscope)
- 1984 (MCMLXXXIV), Van Halen (Warner Bros.)
- Dookie, Green Day (Reprise)
- The Hits, Garth Brooks (Capitol Nashville)
- Daydream, Mariah Carey (Columbia)
- Come Away With Me, Norah Jones (Blue Note)
- Pyromania, Def Leppard (Mercury)
- Greatest Hits, Patsy Cline (MCA)
- Speakerboxxx/The Love Below, Outkast (So So Def)
- Hybrid Theory, Linkin Park (Warner Bros.)
- Oops!…I Did it Again, Britney Spears (Jive)
- Songs in the Key of Life, Stevie Wonder (Motown)
- 1, The Beatles (Capitol)
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Excuse me for being rude and ask, but what has this got to do with anything on this thread?
According to another list at RIAA, Genesis have sold around 20 millions albums in the US, I wouldn't be surprised if they have sold 130 milllions worldwide. It's probably the pop-albums which have sold most though.
BTW: It's up on their official site now: They will reveal their plans for 2007 on tuesday.
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threefates
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 30 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4215
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Posted: October 20 2006 at 15:30 |
The Eagles Greatest Hits isn't all that bad... :)
Anyway.. I agree with everyone else. No Gabriel or Hackett, not even Anthony Phillips..... I'm not interested. I'd rather see Phil Collins revive Brand X... now that I would go see!
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THIS IS ELP
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infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2447
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Posted: October 20 2006 at 14:49 |
For what it's worth, here is the RIAA top selling albums of all time. You will notice there is no Genesis......but Phil gets in there with one album. And Pink Floyd is well represented. But really, Eagles Greatest Hits??????? What a pathetic sign of peoples musical interest.The Recording Industry Association of America's Top-Selling Albums of All Time*29 Million- Eagles: Their Greatest Hits, 1971–1975, Eagles (Asylum)
27 Million- Thriller, Michael Jackson (Epic)
23 Million- Led Zeppelin IV, Led Zeppelin (Atlantic)
- The Wall, Pink Floyd (Columbia)
21 Million- Greatest Hits, Volumes I & II, Billy Joel (Columbia)
- Back in Black, AC/DC (Epic)
20 Million- Double Live, Garth Brooks (Capitol Nashville)
- Come On Over, Shania Twain (Mercury Nashville)
19 Million- The Beatles, The Beatles (Capitol)
- Rumours, Fleetwood Mac (Warner Bros.)
17 Million- The Bodyguard (soundtrack), Whitney Houston (Arista)
- Boston, Boston (Epic)
16 Million- Physical Graffiti, Led Zeppelin (Swan Song)
- The Beatles: 1967–1970, The Beatles (Capitol)
- Greatest Hits, Elton John (Island/Mercury)
- Hotel California, Eagles (Elektra)
- Cracked Rear View, Hootie & the Blowfish (Atlantic)
- No Fences, Garth Brooks (Capitol Nashville)
- Jagged Little Pill, Alanis Morissette (Maverick)
15 Million- Appetite for Destruction, Guns 'N Roses (Geffen)
- Dark Side of the Moon, Pink Floyd (Capitol)
- Saturday Night Fever (soundtrack), Bee Gees (Polydor/Atlas)
- Born in the U.S.A., Bruce Springsteen (Columbia)
- The Beatles: 1962–1966, The Beatles (Capitol)
- Supernatural, Santana (Arista)
14 Million- Metallica, Metallica (Elektra)
- Simon & Garfunkel's Greatest Hits, Simon & Garfunkel (Columbia)
- …Baby One More Time, Britney Spears (Jive)
- Greatest Hits, Journey (Capitol)
- Bat Out of Hell, Meat Loaf (Epic)
- Backstreet Boys, Backstreet Boys (Jive)
- Ropin' the Wind, Garth Brooks (Capitol Nashville)
13 Million- Purple Rain (soundtrack), Prince and the Revolution (Warner Bros.)
- Greatest Hits: 1974–1978, Steve Miller Band (Capitol)
- Millennium, Backstreet Boys (Jive)
- Bruce Springsteen & the E Street Band Live: 1975–1985 (box set), Bruce Springsteen & the E Street Band (Columbia)
- Whitney Houston, Whitney Houston (Arista)
12 Million- Led Zeppelin II, Led Zeppelin (Atlantic)
- Abbey Road, The Beatles (Capitol)
- No Jacket Required, Phil Collins (Atlantic)
- The Woman in Me, Shania Twain (Mercury Nashville)
- Ten, Pearl Jam (Epic)
- Forrest Gump (soundtrack) (Epic)
- Wide Open Spaces, Dixie Chicks (Monument)
- Yourself or Someone Like You, Matchbox Twenty (Atlantic)
- Hot Rocks, The Rolling Stones (abkco)
- II, Boyz II Men (Motown)
- Kenny Rogers's Greatest Hits, Kenny Rogers (Capitol Nashville)
- Slippery When Wet, Bon Jovi (Mercury)
- Hysteria, Def Leppard (Mercury)
- Breathless, Kenny G (Arista)
- Pieces of You, Jewel (Atlantic)
11 Million- Up!, Shania Twain (Mercury Nashville)
- Human Clay, Creed (Wind-Up Records)
- CrazySexyCool, TLC (LaFace)
- Dirty Dancing (soundtrack) (RCA)
- Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, The Beatles (Capitol)
- James Taylor's Greatest Hits, James Taylor (Warner Bros.)
- Eagles Greatest Hits, Vol. II, Eagles (Elektra)
- Falling into You, Celine Dion (Epic)
- No Strings Attached, 'N Sync (Jive)
- Devil Without a Cause, Kid Rock (Lava)
- Houses of the Holy, Led Zeppelin (Atlantic)
- Titanic (soundtrack) (Sony Classical)
10 Million- 'N Sync, 'N Sync (RCA)
- Life After Death, Notorious B.I.G. (Bad Boy/Arista)
- Let's Talk About Love, Celine Dion (550 Music/Epic)
- Aerosmith's Greatest Hits, Aerosmith (Columbia)
- Led Zeppelin, Led Zeppelin (Atlantic)
- Greatest Hits, Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers (MCA)
- The Stranger, Billy Joel (Columbia)
- The Immaculate Collection, Madonna (Warner Bros.)
- Fly, Dixie Chicks (Monument)
- Eliminator, ZZ Top (Warner Bros.)
- Best of the Doobies, Doobie Brothers (Warner Bros.)
- Van Halen, Van Halen (Warner Bros.)
- Faith, George Michael (Columbia)
- Music Box, Mariah Carey (Columbia)
- Like a Virgin, Madonna (Sire)
- Unplugged, Eric Clapton (Reprise)
- Can't Slow Down, Lionel Richie (Motown)
- Please Hammer Don't Hurt 'Em, Hammer (Capitol)
- Tapestry, Carole King (Ode)
- The Lion King (Soundtrack) (Walt Disney)
- The Joshua Tree, U2 (Island)
- Nevermind, Nirvana (DGC)
- Legend, Bob Marley & the Wailers (Island)
- Tragic Kingdom, No Doubt (Trauma/Interscope)
- 1984 (MCMLXXXIV), Van Halen (Warner Bros.)
- Dookie, Green Day (Reprise)
- The Hits, Garth Brooks (Capitol Nashville)
- Daydream, Mariah Carey (Columbia)
- Come Away With Me, Norah Jones (Blue Note)
- Pyromania, Def Leppard (Mercury)
- Greatest Hits, Patsy Cline (MCA)
- Speakerboxxx/The Love Below, Outkast (So So Def)
- Hybrid Theory, Linkin Park (Warner Bros.)
- Oops!…I Did it Again, Britney Spears (Jive)
- Songs in the Key of Life, Stevie Wonder (Motown)
- 1, The Beatles (Capitol)
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: October 20 2006 at 13:08 |
Fletch wrote:
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Im glad the small amount of information I could contribute has clarified the situation of Steve Hackett playing at the Milton Keynes Bowl Show.
I cannot, and would not try, to answer on behalf of what other people have written on other sites - but the fact is - the truth is the truth, whatever you have seen written to the contrary.
Re: the Six of the Best Program - that was designed and printed in the week immediately prior to the show and at the time of going to press it was felt it was better not to include Steve as he had not been contacted by that time...
By the way - you guys are great! Your love of Prog is infectious and today has had me rooting through the dozens of mixing desk recordings I have of both Steve Hackett and Genesis... thank you for that. |
That's our main reason to be here Fletch, we might disagree in some things and I'm usually on the side of Genesis because as you can see in my signature is what we we call my head band, but I can't resist the 3 men music era.
Most of this doubvious and contradictory information has to be blamed to Genesis official site that are the ones who should care to correct it despite, but it's clear they supported the 3 - men era more than the others and that's the reason why I stopped to be fraquent poster since two years ago despite being a Gensis fan.
I'm almost sure I read the Hackett in the audience thing in The Genesis Official Forum and it was not corrected but instead allowed to run freely by the Moderators who are better informed than us because in my case due to my country and age wasn't able to have the priviledge to be there despite as you can see I try to keep informed in everything related to Genesis, Peter Gabriel and Steve Hackett, but we shouyld be allowed to trust supposedly official information.
That Forum is not working lately (Or maybe they banned me for total my dislike to Pop Genesis that never cared to hide) but eaqually is useless because they delete the threads after a certein period of time.
For me Genesis died the day Steve left, Gabriel era is my favorite but ATOTT and W&W are masterpieces also, so it's not a Collins problem, they were able to survive Gabriel because Steve was there but without him well, IMHO Genesis couldn't take that.
John Obvious wrote:
Ivan, as usual, you have gone to great lengths to prove your point and I respect that. I just think that when you see alot of dinosaurs coming out of the woodwork to tour and the sheep show up in droves, that the 3 piece version would be a bigger draw. You don't ever really hear Gabriel -era Genesis on classic rock radio like Led Zeppelin or the Rolling Stones but the sheep still know about the Collins stuff.
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Not such an effort, I havethe advantageto have a very good memory, I bookmarked or copied every piece of information avillable of Hackett, Gabriel, Phillips and Genesis mainly but pages vanish, some sites clean their old stuff after a certain time RIAA changes their info and the links don't work or even sometimes I simply read something and didn't marked, plus finding it is not easy among loads of GB's.
When doing the Symphonic Team works, I save every single PM and article I find (A healthy decision you learn when you work as a lawyer because I like to have arguments to backup what I say), but the more info ouget, the harder it is to find it, takes some time but at last it's possible except when sites dissapear.
Now to the point. after a couple of years of Collins saying he didn't wanted to sing and swearing he wanted Peter to be the frontman, I honestly believed it could have Peter, sincerely I doubted more of Steve but had the illusion that if he didn't accepted Anthony could have been called or in the best scenario both of them.
Believe me, economically the Prog fans are the ones who are really going to support Genesis, POP is FASHION, Genesis (3, 4 opr 5 men eras) is not fashion anymore, you are not cool if going to their concerts.
We Progheads don't care, some as in my case would take a plane to listen them one night in USA from Perú (England or Europe would be too expensive for me) to see them with Peter and/or Steve because I love, live and breath Prog, so most people here, most POP fans won'tcross the state line to see them singing Illegal Alien and Who Dunitt? IMO.
You have seen the numbers of AMAZON that represents 1.25% of the total albums sells in the world, no POP Genesis album except maybe "Shapes" (A solitary one in N° 7 after every Prog album except SEBTP and W&W, even after Genesis Live if I'm not wrong), has a chance against the old material during Amazon lifetime, I believe it's almost a suicide making a 3 men reunion.
The mainstream audience of today is not the same one as in the 90's and less than in the 80's, Rap and Hip Hop have taken the market by assault and POP artists have to be young and look nice, the adult contemporary formula is somethiing of the past as POP Genesis.
John Obvious wrote:
| And what I would really like an opinion on is would Gabriel sing latter day Genesis material or would it all have to be from the Lamb on back? |
That's another conflictive issue, I almost fell in depression when upgraded all my Genesis collection, knowing that there would be nothing new unless a miracle happened, seems Hit & Run music is not interested in publishing (Or simply lack of it) a DVD Gabriel & Hackett footage, so we have to live with the availlable material that is rare and poor in quality or in Peter and Steve DVD's.
But are they able to make the music or something remotely similar to what we loved?
In the early 70's there was a main writter (Banks) and lyricist (Gebriel) all contributed in different percentages but everybody knew what their role was.
Today the band could have 5 songwritters:
1.- Gabriel with his excellent World oriented artistic music.
2.- Steve with the Classic Prog and Classical guitar style
3.- Banks has a lot more than he does alone
4.- Pop fans will insist for some 3-men POP
5.- Mike also would like to write something
There are 5 different perspectives today, they haven't worked together for 3 decades, their paths are opposite, nobody knows if it would be a coherent work (Harder today) or an excellent collage of styles, it's a risk but with their combined talent they have still a couple of good albums under their arms, the million dollars question is: Would this be enough for people who has dreamed with this 3 decades?
I believe a farewell worldwide tour would be a good option with the classic lineup but would we be before another UNION?
A five men era tour would be my dream but very hard because Peter and Steve have obligations (Apparently to what I read somewhere until 2008) so to coordinate efforts is not easy, a four men era work would also be great but not easier because Hackett and Banks would have to work together and specially Steve has an own career to take care of but he is the only one really working with Genesis music lately.
I couldn't care less for another three era reunion, never did and never will, I believe it's not the best economic option neither artistic but seems that's what will happen.
Sometimes it's better to leave things to imagination, but I still dream in watching the 5 great together and even better if the big 6 combining Steve and Ant's guitar, something that would be incredible.
Iván
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Maga
Forum Newbie
Joined: December 18 2005
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 34
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Posted: October 20 2006 at 12:19 |
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aww..I got all excited....no hackett no gabriel= no prog...
me likes prog
end of story
peace
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"be honest and unmerciful"
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johnobvious
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 11 2006
Location: Nebraska
Status: Offline
Points: 1367
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Posted: October 20 2006 at 11:36 |
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Ivan, as usual, you have gone to great lengths to prove your point and I respect that. I just think that when you see alot of dinosaurs coming out of the woodwork to tour and the sheep show up in droves, that the 3 piece version would be a bigger draw. You don't ever really hear Gabriel -era Genesis on classic rock radio like Led Zeppelin or the Rolling Stones but the sheep still know about the Collins stuff.
And what I would really like an opinion on is would Gabriel sing latter day Genesis material or would it all have to be from the Lamb on back?
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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday
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Fletch
Forum Newbie
Joined: October 19 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 2
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Posted: October 20 2006 at 10:17 |
Im glad the small amount of information I could contribute has clarified the situation of Steve Hackett playing at the Milton Keynes Bowl Show.
I cannot, and would not try, to answer on behalf of what other people have written on other sites - but the fact is - the truth is the truth, whatever you have seen written to the contrary.
Re: the Six of the Best Program - that was designed and printed in the week immediately prior to the show and at the time of going to press it was felt it was better not to include Steve as he had not been contacted by that time...
By the way - you guys are great! Your love of Prog is infectious and today has had me rooting through the dozens of mixing desk recordings I have of both Steve Hackett and Genesis... thank you for that.
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
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Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: October 20 2006 at 05:23 |
Ivan..
Great evidence provided on album sales, interesting to see that ' Second's Out' sells the most thru Amazon.com too.
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19557
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Posted: October 20 2006 at 02:10 |
Chris Stacey wrote:
Thanks Ivan.....so would you say therfore that TB, PC and MR are highly credible individuals?
No, they were and still are talented musicians, they simply chosed the simplest musical form IMO
Can you also educate the masses as to where the POP market evidence you have comes from
Of course I can quote some sources:
[quote]
Each decade in the history of rock music (the ultimate international koine) was marked by an international icon (a koine within the koine).
The 1950s had Elvis Presley (best selling artist for 40 years).
The 1960s had the Beatles (still the best selling band of all times).
The 1970s had Pink Floyd (still the best selling album-oriented band of all times).
The 1980s had U2 and Madonna, and already one could see the Atlantic divide getting wider, and a non-rock artist (Michael Jackson) surpassing all rock artists in generating worldwide hysteria.
The 1990s had very pale icons compared with their predecessors. No rock artist managed to get even close to the sales of non-rock artists such as Mariah Carey, Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, Garth Brooks, Britney Spear, Boyz II Men, etc. The best selling rock albums were one-shot deals from artists such as Oases, Alanis Morissette and Hootie & the Blowfish whose popularity lasted only a few years. Radiohead were darlings of the mainstream press, but hardly recognized by the masses or identified with a social trend.
Eminem opened the 2000s with a bang, but seems to be rapidly fading in the background as the decade progresses.
[quote]
The POP boom started in the late 70's early 80's as we all know, precisely when the artists tend to last less.
- 1950's Elvis the best selling author for 40 years
- 1960's The Beatles are the best selling band ever
- Pink Floyd is still the best selling album oriented band (70's)
- 80's had U2 and Madonna, who are not remotely icons today, still sell, but nothing compáred with their origins
- 90's was even worst, the best sold albums were mostly by one hit wonders, boys bands disapear as fast as they appear, Britney seems to survive
- 2000 started with EMINEM who is also fading.
So it's absolutely evident that the POP audience is less faithful than the Prog or even Classic Rock one.
Something more, the common popular music listenet according to "Listening Behaviour and Musical Preference in the Age of 'Transmitted Music' by Helmut Rosing" (Published by Cambridge University Press) is barely 24 years, most of the Genesis listeners have passed this age largely but we all know that the Prog listener tends to be totally faithful and breaks the rules.
and also ( more important) to me the statistics on The Lamb, CTTE,DSOTM album sales??
I once posted a chart with averages that RIAA has taken or I can't find it, but there are some useful resources to check the total statistics in the historical sales history of some Internet Stores like Amazon that represent mostly the last ten years and it's updated each hour:
- Seconds Out has N° 1,093 in Amazon.com sales Rank
- ATOTT has N° 1,945 in Amazon.com sales Rank
- TLLDOB has N° 1,967 in Amazon.com sales rank
- Foxtrot has N° 2,382 in Amazon.comsales Rank
- Nursery Cryme has N° 2,628 in Amazon.com sales Rank (Oe of the worst sold Genesis albums)
- Trespass has N° 2,790 in Amazon.com sales Rank (The most underrated and probably the worst sold album after From Genesisto the Revelation
- Genesis, has N° 2,899 in the Amazon sales Rank.
- SEBTP has N° 3,386 in the Amazon sales Rank sales Rank
- Invisible Touch, the top selling Genesis album has N° #8,422 in the Amazon sales Rank
- ATTW3 has N° 9,556 in Amazon.com sales Rank
- Duke has N° 20,044 in Amazon.com sales Rank
- We Can't Dance has N° 48,195 in Amazon.com sales Rank
- Calling All Stations has N° 55,078 very close to We Can't Dance.
The only Prog Genesis album with lower ranks than ONLY ONE non Prog one is the friendly SEBTP, and the differences are amazing with Invisible Touch or We Can't Dance, plus remember that The Lamb has CD, CD Remastered and SACD if I'm not wrong.
Now lets see other Prog bands:
- Dark Side of the Moon N° 83
- Close to the Edge N° 1951
- Thick as a Brick N° 1258
I'm sure that you will agree that in UK and all Europe Prog albums will do it much better and Amazon represents 25% ofthe total catalogue sells.
So I don't have the charts removed by RIAA (Not convinient for them) but this is a clear indication of what i said.
I do not disagree with you on the latter but would love to see you evidence on album sales.....
Well a sample of 36,000 is statistically enough from a 10'000,000 universe in general terms, and Amazon represents 25% of the catalogue albums sells which represent 5% of the total sales, so with only 36,000 albums sold we would have a valid statistic with a 0.1% error margin. If the world market of albums was only 10'000,000 items so Amazon is absolutely valid.
Iván
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 20 2006 at 03:28
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
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Posted: October 19 2006 at 22:41 |
Fletch wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
johnobvious wrote:
While all of your opinions are certainly valid in our little world here, I am 1000% sure that the three of them could care less.
Steve Hackett was disrespected in Milton Keynes 1982, he was the only member not invited to the Gabriel benefit, but he was so humble that he payed for his tickett and played the encores only because he was there, it's well known that Tony Banks is not a fan of Steve, so Steve has no reasons to come back.
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Hi Guys - Ill be honest I don't normally join Forums but after reading the paragraph above (in red) I felt I had to comment, and hopefully by the end of the post you will understand that my comments are not based on hear-say or guess work...
On the night of the Milton Keynes Bowl gig, I was working for Steve Hackett as I had been for the 3 years previous. The phone call came into the Office about Genesis reforming for the Show and Steve WAS invited to rehearsals but was in Brazil at the time. He did, however, return earlier than planned and after speaking with Hit and Run, we duly showed up at Milton Keynes Bowl at around 5pm. I know this, because I drove him there. I also know that it was Steve's decision only to come on for I KNOW WHAT I LIKE - it had nothing to do with anything other than an inability to make the rehearsals during the week. I promise you, he DID NOT have to buy a ticket *lol*.
What happened back-stage before and after the Show would take far too long to detail here, but Ill summarise a conversation Steve and I had sitting in a Motorway cafe, surrounded by people who had been to the Show but failed to recognise the short, bespectacled chap next to me. When I asked him if he had enjoyed himself that night, his reply was "Yes - we laid a lot of ghosts to rest there".
The track "Timelapse at Milton Keynes" was the result of Steve attending this Show, at the request of Genesis, the Band - as a whole - responding to Peter's original request for help.
I don't know whether a new Genesis Tour is planned, but I do know that my account of Steve's part in the Milton Keynes Bowl Show is verifiable and checkable fact. |
I'm sure I messed it here because you were there and I accept it, but the references are contradictory as I repeatedly read.
Will check it anyway because still you can find some contradictory info like the official poster and reading the Genesis Museum http//www.genesismuseum.com/6otb.htm , BUT I'M SURELY wrong:
| On October 2, 1982, Peter Gabriel joined Genesis on stage for a reunion show at the ~Milton Keynes Concert Bowl. It was a charity for ~WOMAD, Gabriel's world music festival whose first happening had lost considerable money. The singer had left his band in 1975 and this was the first time he performed with them again. It was documented by a handful of bootlegs, including Six of the Best (which was the name given to the event). The six musicians in question are 1) Gabriel, the then-Genesis nucleus of 2) Phil Collins, 3) Mike Rutherford, and 4) Tony Banks, and regular live acolytes 5) Chester Thompson (drums) and 6) Daryl Stuermer (guitar). Steve Hackett joined them for the encore. http://shopping.yahoo.com/p:Six%20of%20the%20Best:1921493222 |
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Steve Hackett's departure from the band has always been shrouded in mystery and rumours of unpleasantness, but the simple truth is that Steve felt torn between the band and a solo career. After the success of "Voyage of The Acolyte", and the freedom that came with making a whole album away from the confines of Genesis, remaining in the band became a struggle in many ways.
As for the suggestion of any animosity between Steve and the other members of the band - although it seems that Steve's departure did not hit the band as hard as Peter's or Ant's before him, the fact is that they knew they could carry on, having already survived the loss of those two members, and as Tony Banks said "By then, we were getting used to it!"
Steve joined the band on stage for the encores at the Milton Keynes Reunion show in 1982, and although it seems that he was not initially invited to take part in the whole event, this was because he was in Brazil at the time and the band were not sure if he would want to take part. Once he contacted them to offer his services, the band were only too happy for him to come along and help them out for the encores.
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I APOLOGIZE FOR THE MISTAKE BECAUSE IT'S PROBABLY MINE, BUT I WAS SURE I HAD READ IT SOMEWHERE.
It's good to have someone here who was present to kill some rumors that I honestly had read, and believe me, there are more in the net and if even the official Genesis website publishes that Steve was not invited (Something totally incredible for a musical icon as Steve), then the official poster doesn't mention him and the Six Members can be numbered (Not guess or hear-talk but official info) well, what can we believe?
EDIT: Cassually found I'm not the only one who believed this:
EDIT: I know it sounds forced, but I'm still searching for the specific site that mentioned Steve Hackett was in the audience, I know this is less than likely, but I always verify what I said, I may use a source that results to be inaccurate (That's a risk we all take) but never guess without a references
Still I believe you're more than probably right.
Cheers
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 20 2006 at 04:07
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Fletch
Forum Newbie
Joined: October 19 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 2
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Posted: October 19 2006 at 21:36 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
johnobvious wrote:
While all of your opinions are certainly valid in our little world here, I am 1000% sure that the three of them could care less.
Steve Hackett was disrespected in Milton Keynes 1982, he was the only member not invited to the Gabriel benefit, but he was so humble that he payed for his tickett and played the encores only because he was there, it's well known that Tony Banks is not a fan of Steve, so Steve has no reasons to come back.
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Hi Guys - Ill be honest I don't normally join Forums but after reading the paragraph above (in red) I felt I had to comment, and hopefully by the end of the post you will understand that my comments are not based on hear-say or guess work...
On the night of the Milton Keynes Bowl gig, I was working for Steve Hackett as I had been for the 3 years previous. The phone call came into the Office about Genesis reforming for the Show and Steve WAS invited to rehearsals but was in Brazil at the time. He did, however, return earlier than planned and after speaking with Hit and Run, we duly showed up at Milton Keynes Bowl at around 5pm. I know this, because I drove him there. I also know that it was Steve's decision only to come on for I KNOW WHAT I LIKE - it had nothing to do with anything other than an inability to make the rehearsals during the week. I promise you, he DID NOT have to buy a ticket *lol*.
What happened back-stage before and after the Show would take far too long to detail here, but Ill summarise a conversation Steve and I had sitting in a Motorway cafe, surrounded by people who had been to the Show but failed to recognise the short, bespectacled chap next to me. When I asked him if he had enjoyed himself that night, his reply was "Yes - we laid a lot of ghosts to rest there".
The track "Timelapse at Milton Keynes" was the result of Steve attending this Show, at the request of Genesis, the Band - as a whole - responding to Peter's original request for help.
I don't know whether a new Genesis Tour is planned, but I do know that my account of Steve's part in the Milton Keynes Bowl Show is verifiable and checkable fact.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: October 19 2006 at 21:24 |
Passionist wrote:
Ivan, I'll just say that I basically disagree with everything you have said here, but won't quote it all sice it's quite a lot. I won't say bullsh*t because that would be swearing and offending and it's not that. But I'm saying that I agree with the people you're fighting, and some people too.
Let it be known, that should GENESIS ever come near Finland, be it 3 of 5, I'm so there. So what if I enjoyed listening to calling all stations. Duke is still one of my favourites.
I even considered going to see Phil Collins when he was here performing live. He still is one of the best drummers I've heard playing. I don't have anything against him. He didn't ruin Genesis, nor did the two. Gabriel left, Hackett left, sure they have ther reasons, everyone always has. And they left with what they had to give to the band. And after that there was no reason for Banks, Rutherford and Collins to copy stuff Hackett would do for instance, nor a reason to change the name of the band. They're still most of the people in the band, 3 out of 5.
And if Hackett or Gabriel wouldn't care to join this project, I have nothing against that, surely if they don't want to they have their reasons, but it's still bloody Genesis, and I doubt even they'll go denying that. sh*t, it's 4 am, I'm off to bed. |
It's your choice, but for me Genesis ceased to exist the day Hackett left as for most progheads, but everybody is entitled to his/her taste.
If they come to Perú with 3 men (Something I doubt), I will do what I did the day Collins came here, stay at my house or go to a retro Pub to listen Prog music or a olocal band playing classic Rock.
That's my taste and I believe I'm entitled to it as you are to your opinion.
Iván
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Passionist
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 14 2005
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 1119
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Posted: October 19 2006 at 21:17 |
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Ivan, I'll just say that I basically disagree with everything you have said here, but won't quote it all sice it's quite a lot. I won't say bullsh*t because that would be swearing and offending and it's not that. But I'm saying that I agree with the people you're fighting, and some people too.
Let it be known, that should GENESIS ever come near Finland, be it 3 of 5, I'm so there. So what if I enjoyed listening to calling all stations. Duke is still one of my favourites.
I even considered going to see Phil Collins when he was here performing live. He still is one of the best drummers I've heard playing. I don't have anything against him. He didn't ruin Genesis, nor did the two. Gabriel left, Hackett left, sure they have ther reasons, everyone always has. And they left with what they had to give to the band. And after that there was no reason for Banks, Rutherford and Collins to copy stuff Hackett would do for instance, nor a reason to change the name of the band. They're still most of the people in the band, 3 out of 5.
And if Hackett or Gabriel wouldn't care to join this project, I have nothing against that, surely if they don't want to they have their reasons, but it's still bloody Genesis, and I doubt even they'll go denying that. sh*t, it's 4 am, I'm off to bed.
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
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Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: October 19 2006 at 21:17 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Chris Stacey wrote:
Give this guy a Xanax!!!
Calling TB, PC and MR old farts, I personally find offensive, but it's opinions right? |
Please read my post, I'm very careful with what I say, I'm not saying they are old farts, Yes members are older, Pink Floyd members are older, Jethro Tull members are older.
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Among POP fans almost nobody cares for three 56 years old farts singing Illegal Alien or Invissible Touch but a Lamb Concert would fill every scenaro where they play. |
I said that for the POP market based in looks, coolness and popularity they are old farts, the average POP fan stops going to to concerts when he/she gets a job or marries, Prog heads travel countries to see people older than MR, PC and TB even after married or even retired.
Progheads respect their idols, most pop fans only respect popularity.
Sad but truth.
Who buys Micheal Jackson, Andrea True, Donna Summer, Earth Wind & Fire albums despite they were as popular as Genesis?
But progheads keep buying The Lamb, Close to the Edge, Dark Side of the Moon, etc.
Iván |
Thanks Ivan.....so would you say therfore that TB, PC and MR are highly credible individuals? Can you also educate the masses as to where the POP market evidence you have comes from and also ( more important) to me the statistics on The Lamb, CTTE,DSOTM album sales?? I do not disagree with you on the latter but would love to see you evidence on album sales.....
Rgds
Chris
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: October 19 2006 at 21:09 |
Chris Stacey wrote:
Give this guy a Xanax!!!
Calling TB, PC and MR old farts, I personally find offensive, but it's opinions right? |
Please read my post, I'm very careful with what I say, I'm not saying they are old farts, Yes members are older, Pink Floyd members are older, Jethro Tull members are older.
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Among POP fans almost nobody cares for three 56 years old farts singing Illegal Alien or Invissible Touch but a Lamb Concert would fill every scenaro where they play. |
I said that for the POP market based in looks, coolness and popularity they are old farts, the average POP fan stops going to to concerts when he/she gets a job or marries, Prog heads travel countries to see people older than MR, PC and TB even after married or even retired.
Progheads respect their idols, most pop fans only respect popularity.
Sad but truth.
Who buys Micheal Jackson, Andrea True, Donna Summer, Earth Wind & Fire albums despite they were as popular as Genesis?
But progheads keep buying The Lamb, Close to the Edge, Dark Side of the Moon, etc.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - October 19 2006 at 21:12
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Chris S
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Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
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Posted: October 19 2006 at 20:54 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
johnobvious wrote:
While all of your opinions are certainly valid in our little world here, I am 1000% sure that the three of them could care less.
That's why I can't care less about themm and believe me Collins is desperate.
He's been beging Peter Gabriel and Steve Hackett for two years to reunite, he even offered not to sing and stay behind the drums all night and Gabriel has said ten times that he has other plans and maybe one night would be all.
Steve Hackett was disrespected in Milton Keynes 1982, he was the only member not invited to the Gabriel benefit, but he was so humble that he payed for his tickett and played the encores only because he was there, it's well known that Tony Banks is not a fan of Steve, so Steve has no reasons to come back.
When Genesis was a POP monster Collins shouted everywhere that Prog was crap, Yes was boring, he rather listen Punk that Pink Floyd, that The Sex Pistols came, shook the trees and Prog bands fell like rotten apples, that Watcher of the Skies was crap they didn't play any more, that he never understood The Lamb and that Peter wasn't able to sing because he used costumes.
Now his argument has changed, Yes was always his favorite band, his favorite album ever is The Lamb, that he wanted a reunion to stay behind the drums and only if Peter accepted to sing, that Hackett was a vital member....Why has he changed? Probably because nobody cares for POP Genesis anymore.
If you were in their shoes, you would probably be the same way.
Honestly not, Peter Gabriel for example changed, he makes less complex music and his concerts are 10 times as profitable as Collins. Last Collins album was the worst ever and he sold NOTHING while Gabriel played in fromt of full auditoriums and Stadiums with tickets at more than 100 bucks each one.
Collins plays with whoever ask him, even N'Sync, Gabriel plays with who he wants as Hackett, Steve just asked and Bill Bruford, Chester Thompson, Ian Mc'Donald, John Wetton, etc where there to release Genesis Revisited and tour with him for Tokyo Tapes.
Look at Pink Floyd, they changed but their albums without Waters are still Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull changed with decency, so did Yes after ONION, Kansas went POP and had to turn back, but Genesis never, that's why Genesis doesn't exist and all the other bands still are popular.
They have had a nice rest and now they can go back to the business of making bushels of money while their bodies are still up for touring. And while the whole idea of all 5 of them going in would be nice, I am sure that the potential conflicts are just not worth it in their eyes.
Peter and Steve are the ones that don't care, their music could not be better, their business are better than ever, Peter's Seal and WOMAD are monsters, Hackett sells everything he releases and has more releases than Collins or Genesis.
Tony Banks doesn't have a single solo successful album, Mike neither (Smallcreeps Day is mediocre at the most) Collins doesn't release anyt profitable CD in almost a decade, why is Collins begging for a reunion while Gabriel and Hackett refuse?
If the business was so good for Genesis, Why in hell they released Calling All Stations with Ray Wilson?
Besides, the biggest portion of the fan base could care less about Peter Gabriel and few of them have even heard of Steve Hackett. In the old pocketbook, the number 3 adds up a whole lot better than 5 in this scenario. Sorry to say.
Sorry but this is not true, POP Genesis doesn't have a fan base, POP audience is not loyal, they sell while they are popular and cool, Genesis ceased to be popular and cool in 1990, I can assure you that Foxtrot or The Lamb alone sold 100 times more albums in the last 10 years that all the 3 men Genesis releases combined.
If somebody is going to support Genesis is the Prog fan base, the POP fans are in their 30's and 40's so they can't care less for their music, but the progheads are faithfull.
Among POP fans almost nobody cares for three 56 years old farts singing Illegal Alien or Invissible Touch but a Lamb Concert would fill every scenaro where they play.
POP is profitable in the first months, Prog has regular sales for decades, that's a fact. Gabriel is an icon inside and outside Prog, he's respected, Collins is a joke everywhere, check South Park, Saturday Night Live or Dharma and Greg 7 or 8 years old chapters.
That's the difference.
Iván
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Give this guy a Xanax!!!
Calling TB, PC and MR old farts, I personally find offensive, but it's opinions right?
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: October 19 2006 at 20:42 |
johnobvious wrote:
While all of your opinions are certainly valid in our little world here, I am 1000% sure that the three of them could care less.
That's why I can't care less about themm and believe me Collins is desperate.
He's been beging Peter Gabriel and Steve Hackett for two years to reunite, he even offered not to sing and stay behind the drums all night and Gabriel has said ten times that he has other plans and maybe one night would be all.
Steve Hackett was disrespected in Milton Keynes 1982, he was the only member not invited to the Gabriel benefit, but he was so humble that he payed for his tickett and played the encores only because he was there, it's well known that Tony Banks is not a fan of Steve, so Steve has no reasons to come back.
When Genesis was a POP monster Collins shouted everywhere that Prog was crap, Yes was boring, he rather listen Punk that Pink Floyd, that The Sex Pistols came, shook the trees and Prog bands fell like rotten apples, that Watcher of the Skies was crap they didn't play any more, that he never understood The Lamb and that Peter wasn't able to sing because he used costumes.
Now his argument has changed, Yes was always his favorite band, his favorite album ever is The Lamb, that he wanted a reunion to stay behind the drums and only if Peter accepted to sing, that Hackett was a vital member....Why has he changed? Probably because nobody cares for POP Genesis anymore.
If you were in their shoes, you would probably be the same way.
Honestly not, Peter Gabriel for example changed, he makes less complex music and his concerts are 10 times as profitable as Collins. Last Collins album was the worst ever and he sold NOTHING while Gabriel played in fromt of full auditoriums and Stadiums with tickets at more than 100 bucks each one.
Collins plays with whoever ask him, even N'Sync, Gabriel plays with who he wants as Hackett, Steve just asked and Bill Bruford, Chester Thompson, Ian Mc'Donald, John Wetton, etc where there to release Genesis Revisited and tour with him for Tokyo Tapes.
Look at Pink Floyd, they changed but their albums without Waters are still Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull changed with decency, so did Yes after ONION, Kansas went POP and had to turn back, but Genesis never, that's why Genesis doesn't exist and all the other bands still are popular.
They have had a nice rest and now they can go back to the business of making bushels of money while their bodies are still up for touring. And while the whole idea of all 5 of them going in would be nice, I am sure that the potential conflicts are just not worth it in their eyes.
Peter and Steve are the ones that don't care, their music could not be better, their business are better than ever, Peter's Seal and WOMAD are monsters, Hackett sells everything he releases and has more releases than Collins or Genesis.
Tony Banks doesn't have a single solo successful album, Mike neither (Smallcreeps Day is mediocre at the most) Collins doesn't release anyt profitable CD in almost a decade, why is Collins begging for a reunion while Gabriel and Hackett refuse?
If the business was so good for Genesis, Why in hell they released Calling All Stations with Ray Wilson?
Besides, the biggest portion of the fan base could care less about Peter Gabriel and few of them have even heard of Steve Hackett. In the old pocketbook, the number 3 adds up a whole lot better than 5 in this scenario. Sorry to say.
Sorry but this is not true, POP Genesis doesn't have a fan base, POP audience is not loyal, they sell while they are popular and cool, Genesis ceased to be popular and cool in 1990, I can assure you that Foxtrot or The Lamb alone sold 100 times more albums in the last 10 years that all the 3 men Genesis releases combined.
If somebody is going to support Genesis is the Prog fan base, the POP fans are in their 30's and 40's so they can't care less for their music, but the progheads are faithfull.
Among POP fans almost nobody cares for three 56 years old farts singing Illegal Alien or Invissible Touch but a Lamb Concert would fill every scenaro where they play.
POP is profitable in the first months, Prog has regular sales for decades, that's a fact. Gabriel is an icon inside and outside Prog, he's respected, Collins is a joke everywhere, check South Park, Saturday Night Live or Dharma and Greg 7 or 8 years old chapters.
That's the difference.
Iván
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cuncuna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2005
Location: Chile
Status: Offline
Points: 4318
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Posted: October 19 2006 at 19:30 |
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Genesis tour... a nose hair is more interesting and appealing than that. The real talented ones are... well, we all know. By the way; Tony Banks solo efforts are disgusting.
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: October 19 2006 at 19:27 |
I checked the official website, and a forum thread is there which is is titled Please Read this Tony, Mike and Phil; about 80% of them are begging them for Steve Hackett to return. But maybe it was Steve's choice right?
BBC news website had an article posted a few hours ago with Peter Gabrial saying he is too busy with another idea for an album but might join in 2008. So I guess not all hope is lost.
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johnobvious
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 11 2006
Location: Nebraska
Status: Offline
Points: 1367
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Posted: October 19 2006 at 19:21 |
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While all of your opinions are certainly valid in our little world here, I am 1000% sure that the three of them could care less. If you were in their shoes, you would probably be the same way. They have had a nice rest and now they can go back to the business of making bushels of money while their bodies are still up for touring. And while the whole idea of all 5 of them going in would be nice, I am sure that the potential conflicts are just not worth it in their eyes. Besides, the biggest portion of the fan base could care less about Peter Gabriel and few of them have even heard of Steve Hackett. In the old pocketbook, the number 3 adds up a whole lot better than 5 in this scenario. Sorry to say.
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Biggles was in rehab last Saturday
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GENESIS TO TOUR - Its Official!
