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Dr. Prog View Drop Down
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Points: 306 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2008 at 15:38
Originally posted by fusionfreak fusionfreak wrote:

Genesis has now more to do with pop,MTV,money and not music.
 
 
 
Huh?? LMAO. When was the last time Genesis was on MTV? 20 years ago?
Yeah, Genesis sure played a lot of pop on their tour last year with an opening instrumental of Behind the Lines/Dukes' End, In the Cage/Cinema Show/Duke's Travels, Afterglow, Home by the Sea, Firth of Fifth, I Know What I Like, Domino, Ripples, Drum Duet/Los Endos and Carpet Crawlers. A lot of pop tunes there. Not much good music there.Confused
 
Sheesh, almost every time someone opens their mouth about Genesis lately, our collective IQ drops about 10 points.


Edited by Dr. Prog - May 14 2008 at 15:41
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fusionfreak View Drop Down
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Points: 1317 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2008 at 15:29
Phil Collins still is a good drummer that's for sure but he has not cared about progrock for a long time:
too bad,Brand X was really top notch jazz fusion reminding us of Mahavishnu Orchestra and Canterbury.
Genesis has now more to do with pop,MTV,money and not music.
I was born in the land of Mahavishnu,not so far from Kobaia.I'm looking for the world

of searchers with the help from

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Points: 37102 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2008 at 16:22
Interesting, if a considerable amount of Mr. Collins' solo music is similar to Genesis music made by other Genesis members, then that makes him a less progressive (as in innovative) artist.  Not being an expert or even an aficionado, I wouldn't know.  But I have rather felt that Collins has imitated other band members quite a bit (or at least been heavily influenced)... Some might say that it took him a while to find his own, true voice.

Incidentally, are there any big fans of Flaming Youth here? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAMeBni0L9k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fj9JZhG8s4&feature=related

He really does have a good voice as apparent in Changes (the second clip).

And young Mr. Collins had a very nice touch on the skins:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f8ZWxT0Qrs&feature=related

I know I've mentioned it before, but I was quite impressed with this one:


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Chris S View Drop Down
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Points: 7028 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2008 at 16:16
Originally posted by Dr. Prog Dr. Prog wrote:

Originally posted by Chris Stacey Chris Stacey wrote:

There are some similarities on PC/ latter Genesis work but ' Behind The Lines' IMO was a deliberate attempt by PC to be different so that is not a good analogy.  Genesis songs like these are pretty close to being found on a PC solo album (And that is not a bad thing)
 
Hold on My Heart
Tell me why
Never a time
Since I lost you
In too deep
Throwing it all away
Taking it all too hard
Mama
No reply at all
 
 
 
Interesting, in that about half of those songs were written by either Rutherford or Banks. Throwing it All Away and Taking it All Too Hard are both Rutherford songs. Hold on My Heart and Since I Lost You are Banks songs, and I am pretty sure In Too Deep is too. Mama is clearly the best song on the list, and that is Phil's. Yet another example of the kind of misperception and way over the top invectives and dislike of Phil Collins around here for all the wrong reasons(in other posts, not this one). Most people who blame him for "ruining Genesis in the 80s" really don't even know what songs he wrote.
 
Just for the record, who wrote those songs on the Genesis albums was not the point I was making. It was the similarity of sounds/crossovers over this period.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2008 at 16:00
Originally posted by Dr. Prog Dr. Prog wrote:

Interesting, in that about half of those songs were written by either Rutherford or Banks. Most people who blame him for "ruining Genesis in the 80s" really don't even know what songs he wrote.

Now that we know who the real culprits are, let's git 'em! AngryEvil%20SmileLOL
So is Phil only responsible for ruining his own solo albums? Tongue
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 11979 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2008 at 13:39
Glad I'm not a member of a Genesis Forum.....Shocked
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Dr. Prog View Drop Down
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Points: 306 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2008 at 13:28
Originally posted by Chris Stacey Chris Stacey wrote:

There are some similarities on PC/ latter Genesis work but ' Behind The Lines' IMO was a deliberate attempt by PC to be different so that is not a good analogy.  Genesis songs like these are pretty close to being found on a PC solo album (And that is not a bad thing)
 
Hold on My Heart
Tell me why
Never a time
Since I lost you
In too deep
Throwing it all away
Taking it all too hard
Mama
No reply at all
 
 
 
Interesting, in that about half of those songs were written by either Rutherford or Banks. Throwing it All Away and Taking it All Too Hard are both Rutherford songs. Hold on My Heart and Since I Lost You are Banks songs, and I am pretty sure In Too Deep is too. Mama is clearly the best song on the list, and that is Phil's. Yet another example of the kind of misperception and way over the top invectives and dislike of Phil Collins around here for all the wrong reasons(in other posts, not this one). Most people who blame him for "ruining Genesis in the 80s" really don't even know what songs he wrote.


Edited by Dr. Prog - May 13 2008 at 14:55
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Chris S View Drop Down
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Points: 7028 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2008 at 05:12
There are some similarities on PC/ latter Genesis work but ' Behind The Lines' IMO was a deliberate attempt by PC to be different so that is not a good analogy.  Genesis songs like these are pretty close to being found on a PC solo album (And that is not a bad thing)
 
Hold on My Heart
Tell me why
Never a time
Since I lost you
In too deep
Throwing it all away
Taking it all too hard
Mama
No reply at all
 
and then these are a few PC solo songs that could have found their way onto latter day Genesis albums.........
 
Wake up call
In the air tonight
The roof is leaking
Tomorrow never knows ( John Lennon wrote it)
Droned
I don't care anymore
Do you know, do you care?
Take me home
Do you remember?
Colours
I wish it would rain down
We wait and we wonder
It's in your eyes
 
Again not a bad thing!!
 
peaceSmile
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Points: 782 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2008 at 00:50
Listening to each other rather than reiterating our own points, that's the key to progress.

Yes, the case is well and truly closed on putting Phil Collns in a prog category as a solo artist, and so it should be. Little disagreement there.

The point is, though, we are NOT talking about his solo works. Clearly, since the original statement was: 'Phil Collins ... A Prog Legend', we are only talking about his prog work with GENESIS, BRAND X and others. Therefore, this is the correct place for a discussion as to whether PC is a prog legend - whatever else he may have become is NOT, I thought, what this thread is about.

That said, I continue to be puzzled by comments that PC's solo work is similar to, or virtually indistinguishable from, latter-day GENESIS. Now by some people's definition they both might be pop, but PC's work was at least partly white soul, particularly his remakes such as 'You Can't Hurry Love'. GENESIS did nothing like that: the nearest they came was 'No Reply At All'. If you want to experience the difference between PC and GENESIS in 1980, do this simple exercise: play 'Behind the LInes' from 'Duke', and then play 'Behind the Lines' from 'Face Value'. See the difference?


Edited by russellk - May 13 2008 at 01:50
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Points: 314 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2008 at 21:49

As much as I love Phil as a drummer and respect how he filled Peter's shoes, I also loathe his solo work. The thing is, is that he was a huge success in all three areas. Now if we're strictly talking prog then we have to dismiss his solo career from the discussion.

Does Phil deserve to be considered a Prog legend for his work as a drummer,front man and songwriter for a Prog band? Most definitely.
If you lose your temper, you've lost the arguement. -Proverb
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Dr. Prog View Drop Down
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Points: 306 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2008 at 21:48
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Dr. Prog Dr. Prog wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
We all know Mike Rutherford wrote Your Own Special way,
 
 
Really? then why would there be at least 4 posts all stating how terrible this song is in a thread about Phil Collins?
 
I rest my case.Wink
 
 
QUOTE ME IF YOU CAN.
 
Iván
 
 
uhh, I think I already did, several times.
You can calm down and stop shouting now........
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2008 at 21:45
Say, anyone have a pic from South Park of Phil Collins hill to link to?

Edit:
There you are, positive proof:




Edited by Slartibartfast - May 12 2008 at 21:59
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2008 at 20:59
Originally posted by Dr. Prog Dr. Prog wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
We all know Mike Rutherford wrote Your Own Special way,
 
 
Really? then why would there be at least 4 posts all stating how terrible this song is in a thread about Phil Collins?
 
I rest my case.Wink
 
 
QUOTE ME IF YOU CAN.
 
Iván
            
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Dr. Prog View Drop Down
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Points: 306 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2008 at 20:48
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
We all know Mike Rutherford wrote Your Own Special way,
 
 
Really? then why would there be at least 4 posts all stating how terrible this song is in a thread about Phil Collins?
 
I rest my case.Wink
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2008 at 20:38
Originally posted by Dr. Prog Dr. Prog wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Sorry, but since ATTW3 it was Genesis no more, it was anything.

And Your Own Special Way sucks IMO.

Iván

 
 
another clueless one. Your Own Special Way was a Mike Rutherford song.
I hearby propose that anyone who sat on any committee who voted Phil Collins NO for prog related because they thought he wrote Your Own Special Way be immediately removed from any more PA committees and also that they have their Prog Credentials Membership Card permanently removed for lack of knowledge.Ermm
 
We all know Mike Rutherford wrote Your Own Special way, nobody is clueless here, neitrher I said it was written by anyboduy else, please read before changing my words.
 
I DARE YOU TO QUOTE ME
 
I don't need any credential BTW.
 
Iván
 
BTW: I won't reply your first post  in this because it's offensive and using language not appropriate for this site.


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 12 2008 at 20:44
            
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2008 at 20:16
Originally posted by Masque Masque wrote:

Heres a list of top shelf songs Genesis did without Peter gabriel


Dance on a Volcano


Blood On The Roof Tops


Entangled


Follow You Follow Me


Mad Man Moon


One For The Vine


Ripples


Squonk


Many Too Many


Snowbound


Your Own Special Way


Undertow


Afterglow


Fading Lights


Not only was Phil Collins a great drummer (as also proven with his work with Brand X) Phil proved he could take over on vocals for Genesis (can you imagine how big the shoes were that Gabriel wore that Phil would try and fill ?) Phil Collins deserves to be knighted for even trying


So for all you people who don`t like Phil Collins how about showing some respect, after all for the Next three CD`s after Peter Gabriel left , Phil and company continued to deliver quality music .


I probably left some songs out but this list was done from my memory.



I think the list is quite messy, but I truly agree he's massive, but himself as prog legend?? well maybe...

Here's my list:

-Eleventh Earl of Mar (one of the greatest with him)
-One for the Vine
-In that Quite Earth
-Wot Gorilla?
-Blood on the Rooftops
-Dance on a Volcano
-Ripples
-Los Endos
-Squonk
-Burning Rope
-The Lady Lies
-Duke's Suite
-Mama
-Abacab
-Fading Lights
-Dreaming while you sleep
-Driving the Last Pike

Of course this is IMO. Also with him(post-Gabriel) they released two classic albums, that one of them is a fave : Trick of the Tail and Wind & Wuthering.
Also IMO ATTWT and Duke are good 3.5 star albums. Too underrated. Have in mind I have an open mind on pop, so I do not have serious problems with songs like Turn it on Again, Misunderstanding, That's All, Your Own Special Way, Follow you Follow Me, etc. Although I do have problems with an entire album of a prog band being like this, that, that is a different story...
So arguably Phil is a prog Legend, IMHO, well he must be if he isn't, and he can also be(is) by as many saying he ruined the band, I'm not on against or for that...
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2008 at 20:07
Come on, let's leave it here. This discussion will never end, as both sides have much as right as wrong. I do agree with many much stuff you said Dr Prog but also with some of the other. I won't apport discussion, since I don't want anymore pending aproval posts of mine.

Peace!.
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Dr. Prog View Drop Down
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Points: 306 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2008 at 19:48
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

BTW: Mama IMO is anything but Prog, it's repetitive, boring and one of his worst performances, he shouts out of tomne and that laugh at thend is pretty repulsive.

Iván

 
 
Omigod. Where does it all end?
Mama is a Genesis song. One of the great Genesis songs too btw. If you had seen this intense live performance on the last tour, where Phil sings this incredibly vocally demanding song, and then follows it with the soft and fluid ballad of Ripples, you would see exactly how great a vocalist he really is. But since you are so close minded, that would never happen.
 
And by the way, if Phil is to be judged for his SOLO output, what does it matter what you think of MAMA, which is a Genesis tune?
 
This truly is amazing.Ouch
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Points: 7606 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2008 at 19:43
it's easy to construct a straw man out of five posts in a row. ;P
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Points: 306 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 12 2008 at 19:42
its beginning to look like Phil Collins is being kept out of prog related because of one Mike Rutherford song.ShockedLOL
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