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Points: 20032 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 17:21
Originally posted by Losendos Losendos wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by Losendos Losendos wrote:

 

   The list is interesting but I doubt it does justice. I agree with those pundits who say that Brain Salad Surgery is rated too lowly . It definetely derseves a top 10 spot.It is way superior to In the Court of the Crimson King which seems to be there only for nostalgic reasons. Now another point might be that some prog albums by non prog bands could rate quite highly on the list. Sabbath Bloody sabbath is one that comes to mind.

  I have never felt that any of the top 10 deserved the tag best prog album of all time. I find they all have shortcomings . My vote for the best prog album of all time would go to Abbey Road.

 and you think that your opinion reflects that of the majority? Sorry, I don't think so.

Me neither. Abbey Road isn't a prog album by any stretch of the imagination.

If Supertramp Queen and the Moody Blues can be labelled prog then Abbey Road also fits in the category of pop/prog.Also I never said that my opinion was a majority particularly on this list.

But if you gave Abbey Road ,Dark Side of the Moon ,Close to the Edge and Selling england bythe Pound to a 1000 random music fans and asked them to state their favorite it would be decided between Dark Side of the Moon and Abbey Road. 


If Abbey Road did come out on top amongst 1000 random music fans, then that would definitely discount it from being a prog album!
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Points: 571 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 17:05
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by Losendos Losendos wrote:

 

   The list is interesting but I doubt it does justice. I agree with those pundits who say that Brain Salad Surgery is rated too lowly . It definetely derseves a top 10 spot.It is way superior to In the Court of the Crimson King which seems to be there only for nostalgic reasons. Now another point might be that some prog albums by non prog bands could rate quite highly on the list. Sabbath Bloody sabbath is one that comes to mind.

  I have never felt that any of the top 10 deserved the tag best prog album of all time. I find they all have shortcomings . My vote for the best prog album of all time would go to Abbey Road.

 and you think that your opinion reflects that of the majority? Sorry, I don't think so.

Me neither. Abbey Road isn't a prog album by any stretch of the imagination.

If Supertramp Queen and the Moody Blues can be labelled prog then Abbey Road also fits in the category of pop/prog.Also I never said that my opinion was a majority particularly on this list.

But if you gave Abbey Road ,Dark Side of the Moon ,Close to the Edge and Selling england bythe Pound to a 1000 random music fans and asked them to state their favorite it would be decided between Dark Side of the Moon and Abbey Road. 
How wonderful to be so profound
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Points: 1140 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 10:01

 

[/QUOTE]

Thanks! Well, personally I would fancy a number of different charts, which focus on different aspects. New releases, few ratings only, many ratings only, avg rating only, n_of_ratings only ... and maybe one chart that only uses collabs ratings, and one that only uses non-collabs ratings.

[/QUOTE]

Thats the kind of idea i was going for  maybe if there was a huge selection of albums that had been reviewed over 50 times or so then just count the first 50, it'd be very interesting
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Points: 21467 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 09:50
Originally posted by Norm Cash Norm Cash wrote:

As I've said in previous threads, I think MikeEnRegalia has done a terrific job in compiling the algorithms for the PA "Chart".  It's certainly a valid piece of work, as well as being fun.

My only suggestion for improvement would be that we have a second, "current" chart, in addtion to the "All-Time" one currently posted. Couldn't this be done by simply omitting any reviews older than, say, 90 days?

 

Thanks! Well, personally I would fancy a number of different charts, which focus on different aspects. New releases, few ratings only, many ratings only, avg rating only, n_of_ratings only ... and maybe one chart that only uses collabs ratings, and one that only uses non-collabs ratings.



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Points: 280 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 09:46

As I've said in previous threads, I think MikeEnRegalia has done a terrific job in compiling the algorithms for the PA "Chart".  It's certainly a valid piece of work, as well as being fun.

My only suggestion for improvement would be that we have a second, "current" chart, in addtion to the "All-Time" one currently posted. Couldn't this be done by simply omitting any reviews older than, say, 90 days?

 


"We did it....you and me! Put him right under the table!"
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Points: 21467 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 07:35

The main problem is that many people take that list too seriously. Just look at it as a suggestion for newbies. It is NOT POSSIBLE to make this an accurate list which is immune to any kind of manipulation.

The point is: If a prog newbie would go ahead and buy all the albums from that list, that would be a decent collection. It doesn't matter if a particular album is in the top 10, top 20 or just top 90 ...

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Points: 1140 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 07:33

[/QUOTE]Heck guys and girls, the Top 100 is only a bit of fun, don't get so hung up if you're favourite album isn't ranked as high as you'd like!
...'course, it's easy for me to say that, as Close to the Edge always has been my favourite album........seriously though I've found it useful/interesting to see what fans views are about the "best" album by a particular band (e.g. SEBTP is ranked higher than Foxtrot), and also to see some albums in there that maybe I haven't heard (actually there are quite a few!).
Maybe if people are that hung up on it PA should allow, a la Amazon, people to post their own lists that are featured in some way, not just on a thread but maybe one member's list is featured as a "headline" each week, allowing other members to comment/criticise/ridicule?! How about it?
[/QUOTE]

 

Thats a great idea!! i tried to get idea to people at the start of my post, but people took what i said a bit too seriously and condemned me as a blasphemer



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Points: 1140 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 07:27

[/QUOTE]So if people have different opinions to you, they are wrong!?Confused Are you suggesting people who like Genesis music are somehow less sincere or inferior?

There are safeguards in place to prevent multiple ratings by the same person.

[/QUOTE]

I am a genesis fan!!!! a huge one!! trouble is most people seem to think its impossible to like many bands all at the same time!! 



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Points: 20032 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 07:24
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by Losendos Losendos wrote:

 

   The list is interesting but I doubt it does justice. I agree with those pundits who say that Brain Salad Surgery is rated too lowly . It definetely derseves a top 10 spot.It is way superior to In the Court of the Crimson King which seems to be there only for nostalgic reasons. Now another point might be that some prog albums by non prog bands could rate quite highly on the list. Sabbath Bloody sabbath is one that comes to mind.

  I have never felt that any of the top 10 deserved the tag best prog album of all time. I find they all have shortcomings . My vote for the best prog album of all time would go to Abbey Road.

 and you think that your opinion reflects that of the majority? Sorry, I don't think so.

Me neither. Abbey Road isn't a prog album by any stretch of the imagination.
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Points: 21467 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 07:16
Originally posted by Progger Progger wrote:



I disagree with virtually everything you say. For me, VDGG wouldn't get in the top 100, Frances the Mute is horrible and Brain Salad Surgery is awful. Nursery Cryme is one of my favourite albums. I do agree that Gentle Giant are great.

The top 100 is an amalgam of hundreds of peoples' views. Sure, some small bands don't get in since they have a smaller fan base and positions depend partly on the number of reviews (hence my delight in seeing Mostly Autumn figure for the first time). Just because it doesn't agree with your views doesn't mean it's wrong. It means that YOU are have different tastes to the majority.
[/QUOTE]

First of all I agree with you about the Mars Volta album but strongly disagree with you about Nursery Crime which is probably the worst album in the current top 10.

Secondly though, your argument is flawed.It only 'appears' as if the majority of people like the Genesis albums because of the multi-logins and reviews by a small minority of Genesis fans!

[/QUOTE]

 You should see a counsellor ... you're clearly suffering from Paranoia. It is true that for the top albums there is some "tweaking" going on ... but that cannot be prevented, and doesn't affect the statistics as much as you might think. Let's put it this way: For every "tweak" there's a "counter-tweak".

 
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Points: 1188 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 06:55

[/QUOTE]

I disagree with virtually everything you say. For me, VDGG wouldn't get in the top 100, Frances the Mute is horrible and Brain Salad Surgery is awful. Nursery Cryme is one of my favourite albums. I do agree that Gentle Giant are great.

The top 100 is an amalgam of hundreds of peoples' views. Sure, some small bands don't get in since they have a smaller fan base and positions depend partly on the number of reviews (hence my delight in seeing Mostly Autumn figure for the first time). Just because it doesn't agree with your views doesn't mean it's wrong. It means that YOU are have different tastes to the majority.
[/QUOTE]

First of all I agree with you about the Mars Volta album but strongly disagree with you about Nursery Crime which is probably the worst album in the current top 10.

Secondly though, your argument is flawed.It only 'appears' as if the majority of people like the Genesis albums because of the multi-logins and reviews by a small minority of Genesis fans!
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Points: 1881 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 06:52
Originally posted by Tony Fisher Tony Fisher wrote:


The top 100 is an amalgam of hundreds of peoples' views. Sure, some small bands don't get in since they have a smaller fan base and positions depend partly on the number of reviews (hence my delight in seeing Mostly Autumn figure for the first time). Just because it doesn't agree with your views doesn't mean it's wrong. It means that YOU are have different tastes to the majority.
Absolutely! Well put Tony.
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Points: 967 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 06:44
Originally posted by Winter Wine Winter Wine wrote:

Sorry If This Came Up Before But Ya Know For A Good While The Top 15 Albums Or So Have Stayed Relatively The Same. But Is It In Any Way A Realistic Impression On What A List Of The Greatest Prog Records Should Be??

Everytime I Look At It I Become Less And Less Convinced. I Am A Serious Music Listener And I Like To See The Good Points In Most Things I Listen Too, But It Seems To Me That Only The Bigger Bands Of The Genre Get Most Of The Attention, I Think That It Is Unfair How Genesis (Brilliant As They Are) Have FOUR Of Their Records In The Top Ten Alone!

There Are Albums By Smaller Bands That May Have Reached The Level Of These Bands At Some Point In Their Career, Even If It Never Lasted As Long Or They Never Became As Successful (Like Caravan, Soft Machine And Especially Elp). Or Even Up And Coming Bands Such As The Mars Volta, Sigur Ros Etc. Who Have Made Extraordinary Albums In The Last While Hardly Seem To Exist!

Some Of The List Is Horrible As It Pushes Fantastic Records To The Side. For Example, Brain Salad Surgery In Every Way Deserves A Place In The Top Ten, Nursery Cryme Doesn't. Third By Soft Machine And Frances The Mute Deserve To Be In The Top 25 At Least, Gentle Giant And Van Der Graaf Generator Should Be Higher Also.

I Just Want To Know What People Think, I Wouldn't Mind Also Seeing Some Lists That They Feel Would Be A Closer Top Ten??!

Give Me Your Thoughts As I Love This Site And I'd Like To See A Fair Representation Of All The Bands And All The Records That Really Deserve Our Credit. Peace.



I disagree with virtually everything you say. For me, VDGG wouldn't get in the top 100, Frances the Mute is horrible and Brain Salad Surgery is awful. Nursery Cryme is one of my favourite albums. I do agree that Gentle Giant are great.

The top 100 is an amalgam of hundreds of peoples' views. Sure, some small bands don't get in since they have a smaller fan base and positions depend partly on the number of reviews (hence my delight in seeing Mostly Autumn figure for the first time). Just because it doesn't agree with your views doesn't mean it's wrong. It means that YOU are have different tastes to the majority.
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Points: 21467 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 06:43
Originally posted by Losendos Losendos wrote:

 

   The list is interesting but I doubt it does justice. I agree with those pundits who say that Brain Salad Surgery is rated too lowly . It definetely derseves a top 10 spot.It is way superior to In the Court of the Crimson King which seems to be there only for nostalgic reasons. Now another point might be that some prog albums by non prog bands could rate quite highly on the list. Sabbath Bloody sabbath is one that comes to mind.

  I have never felt that any of the top 10 deserved the tag best prog album of all time. I find they all have shortcomings . My vote for the best prog album of all time would go to Abbey Road.

 and you think that your opinion reflects that of the majority? Sorry, I don't think so.
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Points: 571 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 06:40

 

   The list is interesting but I doubt it does justice. I agree with those pundits who say that Brain Salad Surgery is rated too lowly . It definetely derseves a top 10 spot.It is way superior to In the Court of the Crimson King which seems to be there only for nostalgic reasons. Now another point might be that some prog albums by non prog bands could rate quite highly on the list. Sabbath Bloody sabbath is one that comes to mind.

  I have never felt that any of the top 10 deserved the tag best prog album of all time. I find they all have shortcomings . My vote for the best prog album of all time would go to Abbey Road.
How wonderful to be so profound
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Points: 1881 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 06:33
Originally posted by Progger Progger wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

So if people have different opinions to you, they are wrong!?Confused Are you suggesting people who like Genesis music are somehow less sincere or inferior?

There are safeguards in place to prevent multiple ratings by the same person.

Sorry, but your safegaurds are not foolproof as I have discovered! It is very easy to do multi-reviews and manipulate the top 100!

Blimey, if someone takes the time to "manipulate" the Top 100 on what's meant to be a site for the mutual enjoyment and pleasure of prog fans then its a sad old world...and some people need to get out more!!!
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Points: 1188 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 06:12
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

So if people have different opinions to you, they are wrong!?Confused Are you suggesting people who like Genesis music are somehow less sincere or inferior?

There are safeguards in place to prevent multiple ratings by the same person.

Sorry, but your safegaurds are not foolproof as I have discovered! It is very easy to do multi-reviews and manipulate the top 100!
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Points: 1881 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 06:05
Originally posted by Tommy Tommy wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

Originally posted by Progger Progger wrote:

Originally posted by Winter Wine Winter Wine wrote:

^ I mentioned ELP yesterday, I really feel they should be higher, especially trilogy and brain salad surgery. now that i think, it would have been nice if you said that yesterday

You are spot on! I have made it clear before that the top 100 is rigged! You have the same reviewers [Genesis fans are the most guilty] giving albums 5 stars over and over again. The two albums you mentioned are far superior to the likes of 'Trespass' and 'Nursery Crime'. I don't pay one bit of attention to the top 100 because it is corrupt!

So if people have different opinions to you, they are wrong!?Confused Are you suggesting people who like Genesis music are somehow less sincere or inferior?

There are safeguards in place to prevent multiple ratings by the same person.

I'm afraid your safegaurds aren't foolproof and it is easy to do multi-reviews as I have noted!

Heck guys and girls, the Top 100 is only a bit of fun, don't get so hung up if you're favourite album isn't ranked as high as you'd like!
...'course, it's easy for me to say that, as Close to the Edge always has been my favourite album........seriously though I've found it useful/interesting to see what fans views are about the "best" album by a particular band (e.g. SEBTP is ranked higher than Foxtrot), and also to see some albums in there that maybe I haven't heard (actually there are quite a few!).
Maybe if people are that hung up on it PA should allow, a la Amazon, people to post their own lists that are featured in some way, not just on a thread but maybe one member's list is featured as a "headline" each week, allowing other members to comment/criticise/ridicule?! How about it?
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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2005 at 04:09
Originally posted by Progger Progger wrote:

Originally posted by Winter Wine Winter Wine wrote:

^ I mentioned ELP yesterday, I really feel they should be higher, especially trilogy and brain salad surgery. now that i think, it would have been nice if you said that yesterday

You are spot on! I have made it clear before that the top 100 is rigged! You have the same reviewers [Genesis fans are the most guilty] giving albums 5 stars over and over again. The two albums you mentioned are far superior to the likes of 'Trespass' and 'Nursery Crime'. I don't pay one bit of attention to the top 100 because it is corrupt!

So if people have different opinions to you, they are wrong!?Confused Are you suggesting people who like Genesis music are somehow less sincere or inferior?

There are safeguards in place to prevent multiple ratings by the same person.

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Points: 3613 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2005 at 20:43
Originally posted by Winter Wine Winter Wine wrote:

There Are Albums By Smaller Bands That May Have Reached The Level Of These Bands At Some Point In Their Career, Even If It Never Lasted As Long Or They Never Became As Successful (Like Caravan, Soft Machine And Especially Elp). Or Even Up And Coming Bands Such As The Mars Volta, Sigur Ros Etc. Who Have Made Extraordinary Albums In The Last While Hardly Seem To Exist!



If you click on the Top 100 link, this page displays links where you can find the top 100 by subgenre. See: http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp?style_id=18

If you select the Art Rock category, you'll find both Mars Volta albums in the top 20, whereas on the all-genre top 100 only one is listed in 89th place. I find narrowing down to a subgenre helpful in finding some of the lesser known gems.

Of course, this isn't perfect, as some of these subgenres are still dominated by the bigger names, for example, symphonic prog.

I'm wondering if perhaps some of these bigger subgenres could be resorted by decade maybe? For example in the top 100 symphonic prog, 2/3 of list is made up of albums released prior to 1980. To me that is a clear indication that the most popular works were from that time period, but the disadvantage is that unknown gems from the 1980's and 1990's are at a disadvantage for making such a list (albeit 1/3 isn't that bad when you think about it, it's just a point I'm making) and one of the important aspects to a site of this is IMO the discovery of these unknown gems. Alas, the keyword is "popular" for these lists. If I knew of a statistical way to make a top-100 unknown gems list I'd post it, but I don't.

However, if you have the time you can switch the Prog Archives index on the main page to subgenres and browse (for hours upon hours in my case) and find all kinds of neat stuff that doesn't make it into the popular top 100 lists.

As mentioned earlier, to bring these unnoticed gems out of obscurity, you've got to contribute reviews and hope enough people are sparked by your review to go find the title for themselves and then add more reviews. The more this happens, the better the chance of these smaller acts making the lists someday. I think in the case of the Mars Volta that is already happening. Give it another couple of years when it has received many more ratings and reviews and you'll see it climb higher in that list.

I discovered a 4-star gem a year ago that I really like and intend to write a review for after the holidays are over. It's on this site and has *NO* reviews and was originally released in 1984! No one would ever find this in the top 100 list of any subgenre.

Just my two cents. I hope you have luck finding interesting things here.
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