Swedish progg vs. progressive rock - Progressive Rock Music Forum

Since this seemed the right place to post...

In the end of the 60s a musical and political movement a bit similar to the hippie-movement in the US started in Sweden, called "progg-rörelsen" (The progg-movement). I taught equality, fraternity, solidarity (the usual socialistic agenda, from die-hard communists and anarchists to more moderate ones) and, above all, that everyone could play music. The progg-movement was very innovative and influential, and its legacy can still be seen in Swedish culture, among Swedish youngsters, in Swedish music etc. There are few persons in Sweden who can't sing along in at least one progg song, and some of the old proggers are still touring and recording new albums.

Now, what the heck does this have to do with progressive rock, other than the obvious relation in names?

Well, to me, the two kinds of music has always been somewhat interconnected, on the same spectra of music, so to say, namely the non-commercial, progressive part. As evidence, I can point out that some bands, like Änglagård, Träd, Gräs och Stenar, Trettioåriga Kriget and Kebnekajse are both considered progg bands and progressive rock bands by their different listeners. So, in what ways are progg and progressive rock related, and in what ways are they not? And, where does the line go between progg bands that can be considered progressive rock and progg bands that can't? I'm a fan of progg, but due to being born too late and not having that much money to move around with (studying pays no good), it's hard for me to get ahold of progg music , and I'm sure there are much more experienced progg listeners here that can help and elaborate this discussion further, but I'll at least make a try, and I'll make that try with help of the "A definition of Progressive Rock" that can be find here at progarchives.

Progressive rock ("prog") is an ambitious, eclectic, and often grandiose style of rock music which arose in the late 1960s principally in England, reaching the peak of its popularity in the early 1970s, but continuing as a musical form to this day. Progressive rock was largely a European movement, and drew most of its influences from classical music and jazz fusion, in contrast to American rock, which was influenced by rhythm & blues and country, although there are notable exceptions in the New World such as Kansas and Rush — considered by many to be the finest examples of the form. Over the years various sub-genres of progressive rock have emerged, such as symphonic rock, art rock and progressive metal.

Well, both genres were created at the same time, in the same era and did have somewhat similar intentions. But whereas progressive music was a genre, though hard to define, progg was more of a cultural movement than just a musical movement/genre. And whereas some bands were very ambitious with their music (Trettioåriga Kriget, Hoola Bandoola Band) others weren't (Philemon Arthur & The Dung, Gudibrallan), others relied more on the texts (Gunder Hägg/Blå Tåget) and yet more would change and get more ambitious in the end (Nationalteatern) They both took their musical influences from mostly the same place: rock, classic and jazz. The part of sub-genres is interesting. Could one consider progg to be a sub-genre, and to what extent?

Progressive rock artists sought to move away from the limitations of radio formatted rock and pop, and "progress" rock to the point that it could achieve the sophistication of jazz or classical music. It is admired by its fans for its complexity, requiring a high level of musical virtuosity to perform. Critics have often derided the genre as pompous and self-indulgent. This is because, unlike such stylistically consistent genres as country or hip hop, progressive rock is difficult to define in a single conclusive way. Outspoken King Crimson leader Robert Fripp has voiced his disdain for the term. The major acts that defined the genre in the 1970s (Yes, Genesis, Emerson Lake and Palmer, Rush and King Crimson) do not sound alike. There is also debate on whether bands such as The Beatles, Phish, and Radiohead belong to the genre.

Progg was a movement that was partly very political, and above all it was a movement of the people. Everyone should be included and none excluded (except for the occassional capitalist and fascist). It wanted to be an alternative to commercial music, and many bands that are now famous started with much will and little talent (Nationalteatern being the prime example: a theatre group who learnt to play the bass on their way to the studio when they were to record their first album), but there were progg bands who resented the great amount of untalented people who were allowed to create "music" as well. Just as with progressive rock, it's very hard to define as a genre, and some even go so far as to say that it includes all swedish music from a certain time period (about 1967-1982) that wasn't commercial. (partly taken from www.progg.se)

Some common, though not universal, elements of progressive rock include:

Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes, with intricate melodies and harmonies that require repeated listening to grasp. These are often described as epics and are the genre's clearest nod to classical music. An early example is the 23-minute "Echoes" by Pink Floyd. Other famous examples include Jethro Tull's "Thick as a Brick" (43 minutes), Yes' "Close to the Edge" (18 minutes) and Genesis' "Supper's Ready" (23 minutes). More recent extreme examples are the 60-minute "Light of Day, Day of Darkness" by Green Carnation and "Garden of Dreams" by The Flower Kings.
Long compositions are quite unusual amongst most progg bands (with an exception of those that are already known as progressive rock bands) but there are exceptions, such as Gunder Hägg's "Kalla Kriget" and Nationalteatern's "Rövarkungens Ö".

Lyrics that convey intricate and sometimes impenetrable narratives, covering such themes as science fiction, fantasy, history, religion, war, love, and madness. Many early 1970s progressive rock bands (especially German ones) featured lyrics concerned with left-wing politics and social issues.
Here, the two movements coincide almost completely. Nationalteatern released albums in form of fairy-tale plays, almost all bands were political in some way, all (as far as I know) left-wing and social issues were the dominating topic of songs and albums.
Concept albums, in which a theme or storyline is explored throughout an entire album in a manner similar to a film or a play. In the days of vinyl, these were usually two-record sets with strikingly designed gatefold sleeves. Famous examples include The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway by Genesis, Tales from Topographic Oceans by Yes, 2112 by Rush, Dark Side of the Moon and The Wall by Pink Floyd, and the more recent Metropolis Part II: Scenes from a Memory by Dream Theater and Snow by Spock's Beard. Aqualung, perhaps the best-known record by Jethro Tull, is often regarded as a concept album due to its recurring themes, but songwriter Ian Anderson has always claimed that the album is just "a bunch of songs".
Concept albums weren't as usual, but one can mention a lot of Nationalteatern's works, for example "Kåldolmar och Kalsipper" and the fantastic Tältprojektet, which wasn't only an album but an entire show about the history of the working class.
Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma, Robert Wyatt, and Gentle Giant.
Unusual vocal styles were something that was kind of hard to avoid for the progg bands. Since everyone could play, that meant that everyone could sing as well. Philemon Arthur & The Dung immediately sweeps through my mind, but also Gunder Hägg/Blå Tåget and Träd, Gräs och Stenar.
Prominent use of electronic instrumentation — particularly keyboard instruments such as the organ, piano, Mellotron, and Moog synthesizer, in addition to the usual rock combination of electric guitar, bass and drums.
Whereas many bands didn't have any electric instruments, they were still used by many bands.
Use of unusual time signatures, scales, or tunings. Many pieces use multiple time signatures and/or tempi, sometimes concurrently. Solo passages for virtually every instrument, designed to showcase the virtuosity of the player. This is the sort of thing that contributed to the fame of such performers as keyboardist Rick Wakeman and drummer Neil Peart.
This is (as far as I know) quite rare among progg bands. The bands were often composed of people who, while being able to handle their instruments, were no shining stars, and had no intentions to be. Solos can be heard in many songs, of course, but they are seldom very complex, and neither is the overall structure of most music. For most bands, it was the lyrics that was important.
Inclusion of classical pieces on albums. For example, Yes start their concerts with a taped extract of Stravinsky's Firebird suite, and Emerson Lake and Palmer have performed arrangements of pieces by Copland, Bartók, Moussorgsky, Prokofiev, Janacek, Alberto Ginastera, and often feature quotes from J. S. Bach in lead breaks. Jethro Tull recorded a famous cover of J. S. Bach's "Bouree", in which they turned the classical piece into a "sleazy jazzy night-club song", according to Ian Anderson. Marillion started concerts with Rossini's La Gazza Ladra (The Thieving Magpie). Symphony X has included parts by, or inspired by, Beethoven, Holst and Mozart.
Actually, I have no idea. It would surprise me if it hadn't been done, and I'm sure I've heard examples of it, but I can't recall anyone right now. I'm sure other Swedes can help me out on this one.
An aesthetic linking the music with visual art, a trend started by The Beatles with Sgt. Pepper's and enthusiastically embraced during the prog heyday. Some bands became as well-known for the art direction of their albums as for their sound, with the "look" integrated into the band's overall musical identity. This led to fame for particular artists and design studios, most notably Roger Dean, whose paintings and logo design for Yes are so essential to the band's identity they could be said to serve the same function as corporate branding. Hipgnosis became equally famous for their unusual sleeves for Pink Floyd, often featuring experimental photography quite innovative for the time (two men shaking hands, one of whom is in flames, on the cover of Wish You Were Here). H.R. Giger's painting for Emerson Lake and Palmer's Brain Salad Surgery is one of the most famous album sleeves ever produced.
Art was an important part for some bands, but never held a large importance for the music itself, in my opinion. Instead, art was another part of the whole progg-movement, mostly independent of the music.

So, as we can see, they have quite a lot in common, but still, when you listen to a progg song and then a progressive rock song, you can hear a clear difference. But on the other hand, you can hear a distinct difference between bands such as Pink Floyd and Ixthuluh as well, and they are both considered to be progressive rock. Many important elements are shared between the two genres, but the big difference for most bands lies in the simplicity of the progg music vs. the complexity of progressive rock. But this isn't true for all bands, on neither side, and as I've said, some bands are considered both progg and progressive rock.

So, where to draw the line? Could Hoola Bandoola Band be considered progressive rock? Nationalteatern? Tältprojektet? Nynningen? Isn't Philemon Arthur & The Dung really a brilliant example of avant-prog?

Opinions, please!