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Topic ClosedComplex time signatures?
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Poll Question: Are we impressed?
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Ipacial Section View Drop Down
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Points: 124 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2005 at 08:37

In the end, it just gets pointless. Cheap tricks to make music sound more complicated are one thing. But when music really does start to get over-complex, it becomes a matter of showing off rather than trying to make good music.

The music gets so over-complicated that it's no longer enjoyable. It's just a mess.
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Points: 21269 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2005 at 08:34
No seriously, 29/16 is not really that odd. It's 16/16 + 13/16. But the more complex the signature the harde it gets for the artist to explain the necessity of the complexity.
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Points: 124 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2005 at 08:28

427/256 perhaps

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Points: 21269 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2005 at 08:24

^ I take it you mean TMV.

IMO they are overdoing it a little ... 29/16, what's next? 53/32, 93/64 or 211/128?
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Points: 124 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2005 at 08:20

I'm not saying we should stick to 4/4.

I don't, so it would be hypocritical if i told everyone else to.

Complex time signatures have their place in music.

It's just when people get all chocked up about it, & start saying how great bands like TMV are, just because they use complex time signatures. That's what bothers me.

And if sticking to 4/4 really is like painting with just one colour. Then getting all excited about a band using 29/16 is abit like getting excited because a painting has more than 10 colours in it.



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Points: 232 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2005 at 08:04
The interesting thing about complex time signatures is the various ways they can be divided up. Listen to Phil Collins' drumming in "Apocalypse in 9/8" for example (Supper's Ready). He divides the 9 beats up into a 4, a 3 and a 2. (1, 2, 3 AND 1, 2 AND 1 AND...) while Peter Gabriel is singing "SIX SIX SIX is no longer alone...". Clever stuff! Similarly in the middle section of "Robbery, Assault & Battery" - it took me a long time to work out what was going on initially. Genesis were probably the best band for weird time sigs back in the 70's - Dance on a Volcano is another good one. Time signatures are as much part of music composition as different tempi, modes, chord sequences, instrumentation and the like. Why stick to 4/4? That's like painting with one colour all the time.
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Points: 4097 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2005 at 07:16
Originally posted by ElwoodHerring ElwoodHerring wrote:

Music would be extremely boring if all of it was in 4/4
Maybe for you, but I could find plenty of interest!
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Points: 199 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 19 2005 at 02:39

Originally posted by Ipacial Section Ipacial Section wrote:

*Still not impressed*

My lips are sealed....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 23:19
theres little doubt in my mind that comlex time signatures play a part in prog but  a  strong melody is just as important
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Points: 1485 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 23:05
Hey, to the maker of this thread...

"I'm not impressed"? Who cares if your impressed. Certain people like
time signature changes. I like them. Why play in 4/4? Who made 4/4
standard? I like different songs that are played in alternate meters
because I like hearing songs and melodies that aren't the standard
signature. I also find it interesting to hear how certain bands incorporate
different time signatures (sometimes as in Genesis' case, it works
brilliantly, and in others, it sounds like a counting parade.) Time
signatures are not put in prog to impress (in most cases.) It is a part of
prog music being a complex and very skillful genre. I always talk with my
theory teacher about this topic, what would happen if the standard timing
was 6/6 or 7/7 and 4/7 or 4/6 was the "odd" tempo. Would 6/8 or 7/8
than sound like the standard? Would the standard radio song be in 7/8?
It's hard to say. 4/4 has been imprinted in our minds and that's what
makes it standard. Just like the Ionian mode (major scale, do re mi fa so
la ti do)

Listen to the classical composers. Let me guess, your not impressed?
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Points: 46838 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 22:40
Originally posted by Trotsky Trotsky wrote:

Maybe a straight 7/4 may not impress you ... how about a piece where two musicians are playing according to two different time signatures and only overlap occasionally ... like one guy in 13/8 another in 5/8 but occasionally the patterns come together




ha hahah  love it, like when Gentle Giant does that with the two vocal lines  in Cogs in Cogs.
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 20:25
Whatever. It's much more fun to play an instrument in a different time signature than to listen to a song in a different time signature. It's just that 4/4 is SO common, a good musician and songwriter may (perhaps even should) get tired of writing and playing in 4/4 all the time, and chooses to spice thing up a bit. Not to make a song better necessarily, but to make it a bit more challenging and interesting.
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Points: 166183 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 17:09

I like strange, unoften used, bizarre time sigs. Does it increase the quality of the music? Probably not, but i still like them.
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Points: 232 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 16:59
Damn - it did it again! the last part should be .mid, why is it adding a space?

What the hell, figure it out yourselves!
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Points: 232 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 16:57
How did that space character sneak in?

try again...

http://www.herring.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/music/fearlessperc.m id
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Points: 232 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 16:49
Want some weird time sigs? Have a listen to this piece of mine. It's not prog, it's a MIDI piano & percussion piece, but it's got more time signatures than Dr. Who's autograph book!

http://www.herring.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/music/fearlessperc.m id


... And there's more where that came from...
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Points: 13 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 16:33
Originally posted by Ipacial Section Ipacial Section wrote:

My (varied) musical experience has tought me that even amateur musicians don't have to stretch themselves to much in order to compose, arrange & perform music in complex time signatures: 5/8, 7/8, 9/8, 11/8, etc....


So what is all the fuss about them? Time signatures are meaningless!! Some music in 9/8 is easy to play & at the same time some music in 4/4 is almost impossible to play.


And don't talk to me about shifting from 3/8 to 7/4 half way though a bar, or having a 4/4 guitar line playing against a 5/8 rhythm, with an 11/4 piano in the background!! Cause it's all lemon squeazy to me!!



I totally agree with this, except when the whole band is playing in different key signatures (as in the mnddle part of Starless, I believe), or when a single instrument is playing in polyrytmics, for example Bill Bruford's drumming, or some songs from Mclaughlin in which he plays the low notes in a certain time signatures and the melodie in another one.

(I'm not sure if I used the correct terms, because I got musically trained in spanish and terms are not alike)
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Points: 232 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 16:25
Music would be extremely boring if all of it was in 4/4 - in fact most "pop" music is, and therefore is.

I like a good mix of different time sigs - it spices up the music. It's interesting when you start dividing the beats into different groups, like starting of with 16, then unexpectedly dropping one to make 15, then apply the coup de grace - the music suddenly switches to 5/16 as you just shift the emphasis. That's the kind of trick I like - let's see Mariah Carey do THAT!
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 16:20
Originally posted by Ipacial Section Ipacial Section wrote:

LOL

I like the way you always try to sound clever by phrasing things in certain ways & using big words.

I don't try to look clever, I'm clever.....and modest

I however can do this without resorting those methods: the point you are making is wrong. I am not claiming that people on here all worship Prog because of it's complex time signatures. I am referring to the people on this site that claim that a band is Prog on the basis of their usage of time signatures, something that seems very common on this forum.

LOL, youre making my point, people love Prog because of all it's caracteristics, not only because it's timming.

Jazz and Metal have very odd time signatures and neither all Prog or Jazz is Prog, you don't see many people who worships plain metal or plain Jazz.

Now run along & tell someone else they're wrong about something.

I always tell disagree with people's opinions, and sometimes I'm wrong and I have no problem with that.

People here worship Prog', complex timmings is one of the reasons why people love and worship Prog', but not the main, as simple as that. Please check all the What's Progressive threads and your doubts will be answered.

Iván



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Points: 124 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2005 at 16:07
Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:

Ipacial Section wrote:

Quote I'm not denouncing complex time signatures, afterall they do have their place. I'm merely denouncing the people who worship bands just because they use complex time signatures. Something that seems rather common on this forum.

I don't believe people worships bands for complex time signatures, I'm not sure most people here and in any Prog site can make specific distinctinons between time signatures (I played drums for years and studied classical Piano and yet I have some problems recognizing some timmings).

You're making what in Philosophy is called Reductio ad absurdum (reduction to the absurd: Reaching a consequence starting with an absurd or simplistic argument), in other words you say:

  1. People here worship Prog
  2. Prog has sometimes complex time signatures

And you reach the consequence that people here worship complex time signatures = ABSURD

You can't judge love for Prog  only for one atribute, complex timming is important even not essential, but if you add complex timmings to virtuosism, you got something more and if you add drastic changes, intelligent lyrics, great melodies, perfect band work, artistic vocation,  classical/Jazz/Folk influences, and 100% more things, you may get Prog.

So this is a wrong conclusion because itstarts with an absurd premise.

Iván

LOL

I like the way you always try to sound clever by phrasing things in certain ways & using big words.

I however can do this without resorting those methods: the point you are making is wrong. I am not claiming that people on here all worship Prog because of it's complex time signatures. I am referring to the people on this site that claim that a band is Prog on the basis of their usage of time signatures, something that seems very common on this forum.

Now run along & tell someone else they're wrong about something.
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