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Hacketeer 
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Joined: September 26 2006
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 Posted: July 15 2007 at 18:54 |
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As chamberry said, I can't bear reading 16 pages of this, but, the very idea of Dr Dre & a Mellotron being in the same room, makes me nauseus.
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"Just keep me nose clean, egg, chips & beans, I'm always full of steam"
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Skoojoo
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Posted: July 15 2007 at 18:50 |
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ok, all i know is that rap IS NOT MUSIC... its Rhythm And Poetry, neither are music, so combined... they dont make music. Doing it in strange time signatures WILL NOT make progressive MUSIC!!! thus should not even be considered by people who listen to MUSIC as... music, and should not be placed anywhere near this site... but yet, it is a progressive site, but all based on progressive MUSIC. so is this site progressive music site or a progressive... site?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 15 2007 at 11:56 |
 tremulant wrote:
I was never pointing this directly at you...
Hey, you quoted my post to ilustrate your argment, isn't that pointing directly? 
How can there not be Prog Rap? Maybe you're not using your imagination enough to be able to deal with such an idea, but it's entirely possible. Of course this has alot to do with what you define as progressive, maybe there can't be something that exists as Symphonic Prog Rap, but Progressive Rap is completely sensical.
Take a note, I never said Progressive Rap, any band of any henre can be Progressive in the sense that has progressed beyond the general parameters.
I say there's no PROG Rap, because Prog means Progressive ROCK, and Rap is not Rock, as simple as that.
What you were saying made it seem like you were dismissing all rappers as gangsters which was the main thing I'm arguing against.
I was talking and mentioned repeatedly GANGSTA RAP, some are criminals others are posers who assume aa aggressive line to sell their thing
What Is Gangsta Rap?:
Gangsta rap is a genre of hip-hop that reflects the violent lifestyles of inner-city youth. The sub-genre was pioneered around 1983 by Ice T with songs like “Cold Winter Madness” and “Body Rock/Killers.” Gangsta rap was popularized by illustrious rap groups like NWA and Boogie Down Productions in the late 80’s.
Elements & Style:
Gangsta rap revolves around aggressive lyrics and trunk-heavy beats. Despite its huge acceptance in the early 90’s, gangsta rap has been condemned for its violent themes. The artists would often defend themselves by saying that they're only depicting actual inner-city struggles, not promoting it.
Gangsta Rap + Commercial Beats = Success:
Gangsta rap gained commercial momentum after the release of Notorious B.I.G’s Ready To Die. B.I.G. and his producer, Puff Daddy, meshed gritty gangsta narratives with polished, catchy pop productions entirely designed with the clubs and mainstream pop charts in mind. Since then, the same blueprint has been reproduced several times
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I rest my case, Gangsta Rappers are convict criminals or sad posers who create a parody of violence to sell while promoting violence, sexism, etc.
Maybe not Rap or Hip-Hop as you've conceived it or imagine how far it can go.
While Rap continues being mostly rhythm without a solid melody and without the Rock element, there can't be Prog Rap.
No, of course not, but again I will draw on the arguement of a possibility not quite met yet.
Call me when you find it, but I will sit down, because if I remain standing, I will get tired.
The last thing a rapper wants is to be identified with Prog, rap sells, Prog not, that's a strong reason to keep on with their status quo. 
Cheers
Iván
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 15 2007 at 11:58
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tremulant
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Posted: July 15 2007 at 10:49 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
tremulant wrote:
I know that I'm reviving a really old thread, but I stumbled across it and was annoyed at peoples general ignorance of the rap/hip-hop genre.
Never claimed to be an expert on Rap, but I don't care about it and believe there's not such thing as Prog Rap.
I was never pointing this directly at you...
How can there not be Prog Rap? Maybe you're not using your imagination enough to be able to deal with such an idea, but it's entirely possible. Of course this has alot to do with what you define as progressive, maybe there can't be something that exists as Symphonic Prog Rap, but Progressive Rap is completely sensical.
That's rediculous, so what if one of the highly regarded rappers is a gangster? It's so stupid to think that because there are alot of criminal rappers that you have to be a criminal to rap, do you see how ignorant this makes you look?
I was talking about a speciific case Inmortal Technique who was mentioned as the great Prog Rapper, for me his music is crap and he's a convict criminal, I won't change that
There's a whole enourmous genre of music there and you just dismiss every artist as criminals.
Never said that, but when talking about GANGSTA Rap, well, the name says it all
What you were saying made it seem like you were dismissing all rappers as gangsters which was the main thing I'm arguing against.
And have you even heard that Ugly Duckling album? What you posted is just someones meagre negative opinion, it really says very little about them at all. Believing something like that is just like believing that punk history website that was posted which tries to condemn prog with no more than a mere opinion.
My opinion is about Prog Rap, I believed and still believe there's not such thing, and yes, I heard the Ugly Ducling album and I'm suire you won't want to listen my opinion.
There are plenty of rappers out there who are true and honest to their art, rap is after all just a way of reading poetry along with a beat, just the same as beat-niks but with a different culture behind it (and FFS not just a stereotypical criminal African-American one).
Never denied that there are honest rappers, but I believe there's no place for Rap or Hip Hop in Prog Archives
Maybe not Rap or Hip-Hop as you've conceived it or imagine how far it can go.
I can't believe how closed-minded people on a progressive music website can be...
Not close minded, I don't care for Rap or Hip Hop as I don't care for a couple other genres...Must I like it to be considered open minded?
No, of course not, but again I will draw on the arguement of a possibility not quite met yet.
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Edited by tremulant - July 15 2007 at 10:50
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 15 2007 at 01:54 |
tremulant wrote:
I know that I'm reviving a really old thread, but I stumbled across it and was annoyed at peoples general ignorance of the rap/hip-hop genre.
Never claimed to be an expert on Rap, but I don't care about it and believe there's not such thing as Prog Rap.
That's rediculous, so what if one of the highly regarded rappers is a gangster? It's so stupid to think that because there are alot of criminal rappers that you have to be a criminal to rap, do you see how ignorant this makes you look?
I was talking about a speciific case Inmortal Technique who was mentioned as the great Prog Rapper, for me his music is crap and he's a convict criminal, I won't change that
There's a whole enourmous genre of music there and you just dismiss every artist as criminals.
Never said that, but when talking about GANGSTA Rap, well, the name says it all
And have you even heard that Ugly Duckling album? What you posted is just someones meagre negative opinion, it really says very little about them at all. Believing something like that is just like believing that punk history website that was posted which tries to condemn prog with no more than a mere opinion.
My opinion is about Prog Rap, I believed and still believe there's not such thing, and yes, I heard the Ugly Ducling album and I'm suire you won't want to listen my opinion.
There are plenty of rappers out there who are true and honest to their art, rap is after all just a way of reading poetry along with a beat, just the same as beat-niks but with a different culture behind it (and FFS not just a stereotypical criminal African-American one).
Never denied that there are honest rappers, but I believe there's no place for Rap or Hip Hop in Prog Archives
I can't believe how closed-minded people on a progressive music website can be...
Not close minded, I don't care for Rap or Hip Hop as I don't care for a couple other genres...Must I like it to be considered open minded?
Iván
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chamberry
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Posted: July 14 2007 at 22:47 |
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I don't want to read 16 pages at the moment, but I will say this:
- There are rap artists that are as ambitious as any prog band making them prog in the real context of the word (not the genre)
- As far as I know, the closes thing that rap got to prog was when Madvillian used Gentle Giant's Funny Ways as a samples beat. It worked quite well, I might add.
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tremulant
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Posted: July 14 2007 at 22:28 |
I know that I'm reviving a really old thread, but I stumbled across it and was annoyed at peoples general ignorance of the rap/hip-hop genre.
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
No. We do not need progressive rap. That would lead to prog gangstas, turf wars between the artists. Could you imagine Jon Anderson doing a drive-by of Peter Gabriel's house? The lyrics would become nothing more than talking about what a great band they are, the sexual prowess of its members, and how the other bands suck and are gonna get shot up. Let's not forget the anger directed toward the police for just doing their job and arresting scumbags. No, progressive rap would lead to a massive deterioration of the art form into nothing more than a feeding ground for the bottom feeders of the world. |
Ty 1020 answered:
| A good way to tell if you know anything about rap: if you actually think "gangstas" and that sort of thing are part of the genre, then no, you don't know anything about it. |
Ty 1020 saoid again:
| If you ever do some research on what the rap genre is actually like and want to continue this discussion afterwards, I'd be glad to |
Well, I'm doing the research and guess what I found, Con Safo mentioned in his list of great Rappers a N°1 a guy named Immortal Technique, let's see his background:
Compiling multiple assault charges in New York State and in other states eventually caught up to the uncompromisingly hardheaded actions of one Immortal Technique. He faced several charges for Aggravated Assault in the tri-state area. Realizing his inevitable incarceration...
.......He was facing a 5-10 stretch, but the hiring of a pittbull attorney helped him compile the cases without turning snitch like his co-defendants. The result was a 1-2 year sentence in the mountains, 6 hours away from the city.
Taken from his web page in Viper Records |
Is there any difference with mainstream Rappers, please, the guy is a convicted criminal.
- Does he have musical studies.....NO
- Is he virtuoso in any instrument....NO
- Does he even plays instruments...NO
- Where did he learned to Rap.....In Prison, after he recieved a soft condemn due to tecnicalities used by a "pittbull lawyer".
And don't come me with the BS that this is because lack of opportunities because
| the kid still managed to finish high school and got accepted to a state university. Unfortunately the survivalist and aggressive attitude that was the norm in New York City caused him to be involved in more violent altercations at school, whether it was with other brothers, false flaggers or the relentlessly racist population of an uncultured Middle America. |
He chosed this life even when he reached the university, the easy way is blaming the rest of the people, "New York", "his brothers", "false Flaggers" or "Racist Population of the uncultured middle America" always blaming the rest of the people, never himself, how convinient.
Is this what we want for Prog'? Is there any difference with the scumbags you mention Doctor? I don't think so, this guy is even worst.
By the way, also mentioned Gang Starr, has this some relation with Gangsta?
I also found a some info about another "great Underground band" (In Con Safo's words) called Ugly Duckling:
When Ugly Duckling came through Iowa City last year promoting their second album, Journey to Anywhere, they left a bit to be desired, especially when overcompensating by telling us how "real" they were....
Anyway, imagine my surprise when I heard Ugly Duckling's new Taste the Secret, which is anything but authentic. What undie hip-hop group in its right mind would dare hire 1980s one-hit wonder Stacey "Two of Hearts" Q to help write pop hooks for a concept album about a fast-food chain that only serves meat fries, meat salads, and meatshakes? The Long Beach trio sprinkles ad jingles ("When you're hungry and thirsty") between ridiculously hummable songs
http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0324,mcleod,44742,22.html |
Sound like Posers to me.
And just starting the search 
Iván
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That's rediculous, so what if one of the highly regarded rappers is a gangster? It's so stupid to think that because there are alot of criminal rappers that you have to be a criminal to rap, do you see how ignorant this makes you look? There's a whole enourmous genre of music there and you just dismiss every artist as criminals.
And have you even heard that Ugly Duckling album? What you posted is just someones meagre negative opinion, it really says very little about them at all. Believing something like that is just like believing that punk history website that was posted which tries to condemn prog with no more than a mere opinion.
There are plenty of rappers out there who are true and honest to their art, rap is after all just a way of reading poetry along with a beat, just the same as beat-niks but with a different culture behind it (and FFS not just a stereotypical criminal African-American one).
I can't believe how closed-minded people on a progressive music website can be...
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Hector Gilbert
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Posted: May 13 2006 at 08:38 |
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I haven't heard any rap that is stylistically prog-like at all, but plenty with the same sort of ambition as post-rock and the more rhythm-oriented krautrock music. As far as I'm concerned if you enjoy say Perdition City there's no reason why you shouldn't give groups like A Tribe Called Quest a good try.
Edited by Hector Gilbert - May 13 2006 at 08:39
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yeppp
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Posted: May 13 2006 at 07:32 |
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yep
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: May 13 2006 at 00:01 |
yeppp wrote:
This conversation goes on and on.. Losers |
Great paradox, who is worst, the loser who writes something because honestly believes in what he's/she's saying or the loser that wastes his/her time reading it even when he believes it's crap?
Iván
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Thyme Traveler
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Posted: May 12 2006 at 14:31 |
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Fire up the flux capacitor ! We're taking this Delorean through all four dimensions.
What is the future of prog ? Genesis reunion ? I'm not telling!That could upset the thyme/space continuum.
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Chicapah
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Joined: February 14 2006
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Posted: May 12 2006 at 13:57 |
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I pray to God that progressive rock may stay a mighty fortress against rap. It has invaded every other crevice of society, it would seem, and that should be enough for the gangstas. I have the right to refuse musical service to anyone in my own ears.
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"Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain
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yeppp
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Posted: May 12 2006 at 11:22 |
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This conversation goes on and on.. Losers
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coffeeintheface
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Posted: May 08 2006 at 00:31 |
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OBQM: www.soundcloud.com/onebigquestionmark (solo project)
nQuixote: www.soundcloud.com/n-quixote (ambient + various musical ideas)
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goose
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Posted: May 07 2006 at 08:48 |
I don't see how Pink Floyd's place in prog relates to Fifty Cent's place in rap. Since prog is a subgenre of rock, and we're talking about progressive rap (or at least some of us are  ), surely we should be comparing Fifty Cent's place in rap to the big rock bands of today. No, I can't name any but nearly everything I've heard on the radio/elsewhere in public sounds absolutely dire. If these bands... uh, the Arctic Monkeys I guess... can belong to the same genre (not sub-genre, of course) as bands like King Crimson, why can't there be progressive rappers?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: May 06 2006 at 19:12 |
RycheMan wrote:
Is this a prog forum?
Man Overboard has gone a bit overboard on this one |
Thanks Heavens and some Adm, who sent this band from the Prog Lounge to Non Prog music.
At least it won't bother there.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 06 2006 at 19:13
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WaywardSon
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Posted: May 06 2006 at 14:27 |
Is this a prog forum?
Man Overboard has gone a bit overboard on this one
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: May 06 2006 at 13:24 |
Visitor13 wrote:
You're simply not listening.
Funny,. when you have no arguments you reply with a 4 word srntence and avoid further discussion
If they really search for the harder formula, why do they play what is, despite its unpopularity, popular music? Why don't they play art music?
Please translate, I was saying that there's no 50 cents Prog but most of Rap is defined by yourslf as 50 cents reap, this means something no? A genre in which 99% of their production if 50 cents crap is in general terms a 50 cents genre.
The
Sorry to say this, but this is just ridiculous. It's like saying that if you weren't born a slave on the southern plantations, you can't sing the blues, that your blues lost all of its essence.
By the contrary, my point is that almost anybodfy can sing Rap, if not ask Mr Van Winkle (or whatever his last name is) called Vanilla Ice, who ripped Queen's music and then was forced to transfer the rights to Suge Knight with tyhe cannon of a gun and being almost gthrown from a balcony.
Or Mr. EMINEM, I'm not talking about races, this is simply stupid. I'm talking about the essense of a genre. About a month ago UI heard a Muzak (AKA elevator music) version of ELP songs, that is so blended with crap that is not Prog anymore. If you blend Rap with coplex music then oit ceases to be rap, Rap is mainly vocal and spoken, the music is secondary.
Or that you can't sing gospel choires if you're white. Or that white men can't play basketball. Or that to be a successful rock artist you have to shag groupies left and right.
Again you're talking incoherences, white men can play Basketbal and sing Gospel, but if you make a sport in which you have to throw a ball to a ring using a Beisball bat or playing with your feet, then it ceases to be Basketball, doesn't matter if you throw the ball to a basket. The same if you add complex music to Rap it ceases to be rap.
Or that if you haven't graduated from the conservatory, don't wear a cape and don't sing about dragons you can't be prog. If you don't wear a cape your prog is devoid of its essence, it's not prog.
Sorry, but now you're wrong, the cape is just showbiz Tony Banks plays with jeans and is as Prog as you can get.
But IF YOU DON'T HAVE MUSICAL STUDIES, BETTER IF IN A COBNSERVATORY YOU CAN'T WRITE JOURNEY SO THE CENTRE OF THE EARTH OR WIX WIVES OF HENRY THE WII.
If you check each and every Prog band you´ll find at least one member who has formal classical music studies, in order to create so elaborate music YOU NEED THE FORMAL EDUCATION, THAT'S A FACT.
Of course that's not the case of Rap.
Rap was born when someone discovered a musical (sic) quality to his/her speech when they accentuated certain rhythmic patterns, found this quality pleasing and passed his/her discovery on to other people. I don't even want to guess when and where that occurred, but I'm pretty sure it goes a LONG way back. And even if it doesn't, even if it was born in the ghettoes, so what? I don't remember ever getting stabbed, raped or becoming addicted to crack as a result of listening to the few rap artists that I sometimes listen to.
Again you're escaping from the discussion with silly cliches, most of the Rap lyrics are crap, but thois doesn't mean you will change into a Gangasta for just listening it, as you won't become a bnew born Christian for listening Testimony.
But violent and revolutionary lyrics sell, that's why they do it, stupid kids who only care for how cool the music makes you look and won't even care for lyrics
Pink Floyd's superiority over 50 cent isn't important here - what is important is the fact that you have no idea about prog if you've only heard Pink Floyd and no idea about rap if you've only heard 50 cent.
You brought the issue, but if you listen Pink Floyd you have an idea of Prog if you listen any Prog band you have an idea about Prog, maybe you won't know about sub-genres, but it's Prog Music, in the sae way that Gangsta crap is Rap.
IMO evolution is about making things work, not about making them more complex. If complexity doesn't work, nature doesn't hesitate to simplify.
Sorry, but have you ever read Darwin "The Evolucion of the Species"? Nature works the opposite way unicelular beings evolved into sea creatures, anphibious, mamals, monlewys, proto hominids and hominids before reaching to the Homo Sapiens.
Evolution works from extremely siple to extremely complex, not otherwise.
But let's assume that more complex = better. Where does that leave prog? Somewhere boring, if Frank Zappa's and Robert Fripp's opinions are anything to go by. Let's face it, prog isn't anything as complex and/or ambitious as classical, some jazz, avant garde and traditional music.
Sorry but Zappa had very particular ideas and Fripp speaks crap as often as he does great works,. Classical can be as complex as Rachmaninoff and as simple as Lullaby by Brahms.
Prog can be as simple as Prog Related as Styx, more complex as Pendragoon or almust as impossible to listen as Rio. Alberto Ginastera, the creator "Objective Nationalism" (1934–-1948), "Subjective Nationalism" (1948--1958), and "Neo-Expressionism" (1958--1983) and one of the most complex musicians ever said when he heard ELP's version of Tocatta "Diabolic...This is the only way my usic has to be performed".
And he was a Modern Classical and acclaimed musician, so nothing is true even if Fripp says it, after he produced his wife's albums, I don't know if his arrogance is not just a cover.
Zappa and Fripp knew this, so they held prog low. And I'm sure they aren't the only HIGHLY accomplished composers/musicians who think this waz. I'm sure Bartok would consider prog crude as well, if he were still alive.
Wrell, we can only talk about what we know, and the only classical compoiser thattalked about Prog was Ginastera, and as I said, he was exited with this.
So ultimately that leaves prog in the position akin to that of a small town businessman, who may want to be treated by his fellow townspeople (whom he holds in contempt because of his house and two cars) as a Rockefeller, but who wouldn't be able to offer the least resistance if a real Rockefeller came to his town and bought him out. Pathetic little creature, really. If he had shown sympathy to his fellows, he would have stood a chance of keeping his dignity at least, but since he didn't... So ultimately you can only go so far with complexity as an indicator of quality.
Translate please, that parabole has no feet or head, who are Prog townspeople? The rappers? I don't think so.
And no, complexity alone means nothing, you need quality, originalitry, imagination, dexterity and even charisma.
Another ridiculous statement here. Following this logic one could also say that practitioners of Gregorian chants, the music of the African Wolof people, the Charlie Parker-influenced jazz artists, people playing the music of the far East, people who solo on their instruments without any backing, and drummers in general abandoned real music, or never created it in the first place.
Again you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about, Gregorian Chant is pre-orchestral Canonic music (Pre meaninf BEFORE) from 800 to 1000 AD
It is the music of the Roman Rite of the Mass, also known as the Gregorian rite or Tridentine rite, and the reason is that St Gregoruy the Great (the Pope) didn't allowed the use of instruments during the celebration of mass, oin the late Gothic era the organ was allowed and then the church admitted the use of some instruments....THAT'S CALLED EVOLUTION, FROM SIMPLE (Monophonic human voice a capella) TO THE COMPLEX (First organ and then Orchestras and polyphonic choirs).
Don't talk me about Ethnic chants, because most are based in ancient rituals and religious laws, for example Yussuf Islam (Formerly known as Cat Stevens) refused to use guitar anymore because one Moslem Sacred text said that you shal praise Allah with your voice and only with drums, but this is only because of their strong compromise with their faith, and you can't compare this with comon music.
If they quoted those artists without permission, they are definitely guilty of a crime. But that hardly disqualifies them as artists - Jean Genet and Richard Wagner were also thieves; Carlo Gesualdo was a murderer; Sir Thomas Malory was all of this and more. And the act of quoting doesn't disqualify them as artists, either. It probably would if that was all they did - but that isn't very likely, IMO.
Well Wagner QUOTED some music but he was skilled enough to create the 15 hours original Opera known as Der Ring De Nibelungen that lasts 15 or 16 hours or the magnifiscent Tanheusser, so don't dare to compare him with any Rap musician, most of whom can hardly play an instrument, read a note or make anything remotely original.
BTW: You're again kicking the board and inventing subjects, I don't care if any musician is a crook or a drug addict, as a fact Gary Thain died of heroin OD and I still consider him the best bass player ever, the same goes with Hendrix (even when I fdon't like his music). Alex Lifeson hadrecently a legal problem becaudse of violence, but that's not the general rule in Prog.
Even if it was, the musical problem with copying the music is not the legal one but THEIR LACK OF ORIGINALITY, and that's a different issue only musical.
... the truth is that rock was spawned by the devil, classical was born snobbish, vain and arrogant, jazz was created by Wynton Marsalis , prog is about wearing a cape...
Rock was ACCUSED but becauise people didn't wanted heir status quo to change, Classical wasn't born snobbish, Classical was born RELIGIOUS!!!!!!! but 90% of the lyrics of Rap talk about crimes, drugs, ganstas, sexism and violence
You didn't like Nuke's story, how about the BBC's then?
World hip-hop questions US rap
A recent international hip-hop festival which brought together rap artists from around the world has raised the question of why non-US rap is so political - whereas mainstream American rap appears frivolous.
Many of the performers at the three-day Trinity International Hip-Hop Festival in Hartford, Connecticut, were critical of the way that US rap - which is by far the best-selling - appears concerned mostly with money, drugs and sex, and has little to do with its roots in the angry political expression of groups like Public Enemy or KRS One.
"There's this negative perception of hip-hop as being a criminal artform, as being the home of the uneducated and non-thinking people," said Nigerian MC Oke.
"When you go across the continents of the Earth, people are embracing hip-hop as the force to change and transform the world."
'Sex, money and drugs'
The artists, who came form countries as diverse as Brazil, Kenya, and Iraq, were brought together by the record label Nomadic Wax, in collaboration with a group of Hartford students and American non-governmental organisation World Up.
The festival was designed to promote international understanding and community development through hip-hop.
Rolando Brown, of event sponsors the Hip-hop Association, said the festival highlighted there was "more of a focus on positive community development" outside the US.
"Some will argue that it's because of a lack of an economy, others would say it's because the international market has always been a little bit more conducive to development than the US has," he added.
MC Dola, a Tanzanian rapper who is one of the biggest-selling artists in East Africa, said that outside of the US, stars maximise their appeal by talking about social issues and rapping in their own language.
"We have been able to filter out the elements of sex, money and drugs - you don't get that in Tanzania," he explained.
"You don't get airplay if you talk about these things in your music. Over 99% of the rap in Tanzania is in Swahili - and it actually has a political message to it.
"They are the records that sell and appeal to a wider demographic of people than any type of music."
Changing market
However, many artists in Hartford blamed the current preoccupations of US hip-hop on the music industry, and stressed they believe record labels and radio conglomerates are actively promoting negative stereotypes to bury rap with a positive or political message.
"Being sensational about violence or sex or drugs is a huge part of it," said Chee Malabar, a rapper with Asian-American act The Himalayan Project.
"It's easier for Americans to buy into that than it is to look in the mirror and say, 'some of the social policies and institutional hierarchies are messed up'.
"That's hard to sell, and ultimately it's about selling."
But Jacqueline Springer, of the BBC's urban music station 1Xtra, said that she strongly disagreed with this opinion.
"People haven't appreciated that although rap is the biggest-selling genre now, it's layered, so there are people who are underground, who have more of a political voice," she said.
She also pointed out that the age of the average rap fan has decreased, which has transformed what rap artists produce.
"They don't really want to hear about your opposition to George Bush - they'd much rather hear about what you want to do with George Bush's wife," she said.
"They don't want too much politics or too much sociological content rammed down their throats, because they're looking at rap as a fantasy - 'if I can famous, I can get iced-out teeth as well'." |
Yes there may be political Rap even in the states, you have Inmortal Technique who promotes criminal terrorism in Perú while earning a lot of money in the safety of USA. I may admit that there can be SOME good lyrics, but still not ,music to me.
BTW: This is just an article mostly quoting what this rappers and hip hoppers have to say about their own music and how poor rappers blame USA rap because they are poor and USA pays millions, that's all.
They are blaming against USA Rap just because their market doesn't provide them the same comfort that USA market can afford. Give them a couple millions and you'll find how they change instantly.
First you accuse rap of being by definition limited and crude and rap artists of not being creative because they adhere to the confines of rap.
No I accuse rap of being a crude and mediocre musical "genre" (if you loike it more) because music is not important, oit's a secondary elemsnt to enhance the lyrics, asa I said it may be a form of street poetry but music not.
And then you say prog is great and that it is a GENRE. If it is indeed a genre and you advocate staying true to it, then you're also advocating limiting oneself to the confines of this genre.
If you paid more attention to Prog, you will know that Prog is probably the widest genre ever existed because it blends Rock with Classical. Jazz. Folk - Ethnic, Avant Garde, Minimalistic, etc influences. We have more than ten sub-genres and we find we need sometimes an extra sub-genre to defuine just one band as Gentle Giant, King Crimson or VDGG that doiesn't perfectly fit in any categoruization, so you're comparing apples with oranges.
Therefore you're advocating the lack of progress. Respectfully, you are contradicting yourself.
No I feel thesame pleassurelistening a Prog band from 1971 than a good Prog band from 2006.
Again, let's face it, prog isn't anything as complex and/or ambitious as classical, some jazz, avant garde or traditional music, so it cannot be searching for the most complex expression and orchestration. It is simply out of its reach, IMO.
You said it, IN YOUR OPINION, which I don't share, I believe you shall always try to reacgh the excelence.
It's no wonder that, to make their music more complex than the average rock song, prog artists had to resort to techniques and strategies that had LONG been discovered and probably done to death by artists from the 'genres' I've named. And, I think, this is why Zappa, Fripp and some others rejected prog. It's simply not very progressive.
Zappa rejected Prog (If he did) because he wanted to be cotroversial, mabny Prog musicians play prog but reject it because it's not profitable, and I can expect anything from Fripp, because the guy is a genius but also a jerk according to most people who know him. Fripp believes his music is ober anything because he has an ego as big as the Mracana Stadium.
It may be progressive for rock, but on the whole, it's nothing groundbreaking. Same goes for what one could call progressive rap; it isn't any better or any worse in that respect.
There's just a slight thing you have forgotten....PROGRESSIVE RAP DOEN'T EXIST YET.
Or is it? Anthony Braxton respects rap and says that, at its best, it has many levels. Steve Coleman and Matthew Shipp actively cooperate with rap artists. Braxton's creativity and knowledge is legendary. His works are astoundingly complex and energetic. Shipp is one of the most interesting pianists of the younger generation, probably the one who will take over from Cecil Taylor. Steve Coleman is a highly accomplished and intelligent musician, as well. They are careful with words and choosy about who they play with - rightfully so. They only pick the best; those whom they consider creative and progressive.
Well, I base yb taste and opinions in my own appreciation, I don't care for what people say. Rick Wakeman said TFTO is just a pile of crap, Phil Collins said that he thanked that Punk killed Prog but later changed his version to "I was always a proghead". I believe in what I see and hear.
BTW: Monsieurs Braxton, Coleman and Snipp may buy all the rap they want if they respect it so much, it's their problem and have enough money to do it, I won't use a rap CD as a coaster because it would kill my apetite.
Iván
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vogre
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 14 2005
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 189
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Posted: May 06 2006 at 09:50 |
goose wrote:
If neo prog exists, why can't progressive rap? |
@ the thread: I'm the worst guy when it comes to express what I'm thinking, but the whole situation is the same as with threads about progressive electronica, with Ivan as the main man in opposition.
The whole prblem is that p-word, prog which could be understood as progressiove approach to music, and as a rock genre with pseudo classical melodies and arrangements.
So it can be changed to experimental, complex, innovative or whatever. A few artists have been suggested. It is pretty popular today, so you can ask for this stuff easily in a specialised record store.
And rap, without theexperimental attitude is still pretty fun(not funny!!) to listen to, and some fine songs in this genre do exist.
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goose
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
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Posted: May 06 2006 at 09:13 |
If neo prog exists, why can't progressive rap?
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We -need- progressive rap.
