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Sacro_Porgo View Drop Down
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

...
Yes, those are indeed some of the reasons why the production on Nursery Cryme (and many other early prog albums) is pretty bad. Of course I probably wouldn't be on this site if it was so bad as to be unlistenable! And here I am.

Hi,

I don't consider it "bad" ... it did not have the touch or the equipment, but WE STILL LISTEN TO IT, and that means that there was a FEELING and TOUCH by the musicians that was special and it is still loved today.

We have to separate the two, otherwise we will never know when an artist and special player/person/band comes around, expecting it to sound perfect. Heck, go to Harlem and listen to the kids playing on cans, buckets and every thing else, and making a lot of rap sound like really poor stuff in the end.

I have been to a lot of "live" concerts and events, and it is (in some ways) like a play when we used to say that there is a $50 dollar seat, and there is a $5 dollar seat, and the difference is horrendous ... in the $5 dollar seat you can not hear half of what is being said on the stage, compared to the first row of seats!

So we're saying something is bad because of where we sit? NOT ME .. I WANT TO HEAR IT with my ear to the ground (as Jim would say!), to ensure that it got to my ears ... not a silly reviewer or comment by so many folks that are totally out of time and context with the music altogether. Not very progressive of them, btw ... and that is what you might have stated. Half the stuff that is the "top ten" of the progressive material was not exactly well recorded, compared to the mid 70's and later ... but its feeling is special and important. Heck, Peter Hammill and VdGG were almost all "home recorded" (so to speak) in those early albums and none of us are complaining about it!

Yo,

When I say something is bad, and then I follow that up with "but I still listen to it," don't you think I already understand the point you just overexplained?
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Tull aren’t even in the HOF. Their album remix book set is the best collection in history
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Early Genesis is generally overrated (I say this as someone who puts them in my top five bands). A comment by Silly Puppy above suggests they 'came of age' with SEBTP yet this is the album that contains Battle Of Epping Forest (too much larking about , if ELP did this they would have been panned beyond reason) , More Fool Me and I Know What I Like (yawn) . Fantastic other tracks admittedly but is it really enough? Possibly the only real masterpiece in the Gabriel era could have been Lamb if has been about 10 minutes shorter. They were the band of the 'filler' material but somehow they get away with a lot more than other bands (ie ELP) who had less filler and more technically innovative. It is correctly pointed out that the production of NC was Muddy . Yes it really was although it was fixed in 2007 thankfully.
For me their best albums are the four that followed Gabriel's departure.  The split did neither of them any harm in my book and both took progressive rock onwards in their own ways. Genesis streamlined it and became a bit commercial (a terrible sin) but they had developed as a much more powerful band especially holding their own live with the best around. That's just in my opinion of course!

Here is a bizarre take on The Lamb if anybody is curious. A "cover" album but it does not seem to follow any regard for the actual music on the album?  I am not sure why people would bother making this but here it is:







Edited by Leggo My Proggo - November 17 2021 at 01:22
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Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

...
Yes, those are indeed some of the reasons why the production on Nursery Cryme (and many other early prog albums) is pretty bad. Of course I probably wouldn't be on this site if it was so bad as to be unlistenable! And here I am.

Hi,

I don't consider it "bad" ... it did not have the touch or the equipment, but WE STILL LISTEN TO IT, and that means that there was a FEELING and TOUCH by the musicians that was special and it is still loved today.

We have to separate the two, otherwise we will never know when an artist and special player/person/band comes around, expecting it to sound perfect. Heck, go to Harlem and listen to the kids playing on cans, buckets and every thing else, and making a lot of rap sound like really poor stuff in the end.

I have been to a lot of "live" concerts and events, and it is (in some ways) like a play when we used to say that there is a $50 dollar seat, and there is a $5 dollar seat, and the difference is horrendous ... in the $5 dollar seat you can not hear half of what is being said on the stage, compared to the first row of seats!

So we're saying something is bad because of where we sit? NOT ME .. I WANT TO HEAR IT with my ear to the ground (as Jim would say!), to ensure that it got to my ears ... not a silly reviewer or comment by so many folks that are totally out of time and context with the music altogether. Not very progressive of them, btw ... and that is what you might have stated. Half the stuff that is the "top ten" of the progressive material was not exactly well recorded, compared to the mid 70's and later ... but its feeling is special and important. Heck, Peter Hammill and VdGG were almost all "home recorded" (so to speak) in those early albums and none of us are complaining about it!
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

... (about the quality of recordings)

Sure The Knife is the heaviest rocker and a heckuva closer on Trespass, but Visions Of Angels get stuck in my head all the time! Looking For Someone is basically the sound of Gabriel discovering just how resonant his voice can be. It's a great album all around, excellent reading music actually. Pastoral, sure, but what a pasture!

Hi,

I'm not sure that all bands got a good recording of a lot of their music at the start. Studio time was expensive and a band on their first or second album that did not sell a whole lot, would likely not get a whole lot of attention at all.

Compare some of those recordings to a lot of the Canterbury stuff that was not recorded well, either, however, the quality of the music gave us a thrill and we still love it today. 

All in all, it is all just about a measure of what the time had to offer, and remember that DSOTM was, at the time, considered the pinnacle of rock music recording. Up until then, I suppose that the best there was came from George Martin, and Muscle Shoals, but it was another man Tom Dowd, that helped make famous one of the most played songs ever ... Layla ... when he heard something that had to be done! (It's on his special).

A lot of the European music suffers from the lack of decent recording materials as well, but somehow, the music itself came alive, and to me, that is the most important factor of all.

Yes, those are indeed some of the reasons why the production on Nursery Cryme (and many other early prog albums) is pretty bad. Of course I probably wouldn't be on this site if it was so bad as to be unlistenable! And here I am.
Porg for short. My love of music doesn't end with prog! Feel free to discuss all sorts of music with me. Odds are I'll give it a chance if I haven't already! :)
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When an expert on English progressive rock talks, one needs to listen. Fortunately, RS is not in that category.
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Originally posted by Philchem8 Philchem8 wrote:

Thanks Sacro Porgo. Agree, Visions of Angels is a relatively little know gem from early Genesis, and Trespass is quite a pasture indeed, even if not quite on the level of their subsequent work. Each track on the album is clearly distinctive from the others and has something to offer. My favourite is Stagnation, which I think also points the most to their future direction.

And parts of Stagnation are still played at Genesis live gigs to this day.
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Thanks Sacro Porgo. Agree, Visions of Angels is a relatively little know gem from early Genesis, and Trespass is quite a pasture indeed, even if not quite on the level of their subsequent work. Each track on the album is clearly distinctive from the others and has something to offer. My favourite is Stagnation, which I think also points the most to their future direction.
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My previous post was in response to Moshkito, but didn't show up as such.
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Just to clarify, I don't think I or anyone in this discussion was saying that they found early Genesis was too English or too theatrical, but rather that they may have been perceived as such by some critics and audiences, particularly in the US. Without going further on these points, I think there's some evidence of that, but of course, these are just opinions. In terms of critics being too stupid, I was synthesizing in jest many of the opinions shared on some of the critics, particularly from RS, on Genesis and other music. But I do not believe critics are stupid in general and I'm sorry if I caused any offence.
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Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

... (about the quality of recordings)

Sure The Knife is the heaviest rocker and a heckuva closer on Trespass, but Visions Of Angels get stuck in my head all the time! Looking For Someone is basically the sound of Gabriel discovering just how resonant his voice can be. It's a great album all around, excellent reading music actually. Pastoral, sure, but what a pasture!

Hi,

I'm not sure that all bands got a good recording of a lot of their music at the start. Studio time was expensive and a band on their first or second album that did not sell a whole lot, would likely not get a whole lot of attention at all.

Compare some of those recordings to a lot of the Canterbury stuff that was not recorded well, either, however, the quality of the music gave us a thrill and we still love it today. 

All in all, it is all just about a measure of what the time had to offer, and remember that DSOTM was, at the time, considered the pinnacle of rock music recording. Up until then, I suppose that the best there was came from George Martin, and Muscle Shoals, but it was another man Tom Dowd, that helped make famous one of the most played songs ever ... Layla ... when he heard something that had to be done! (It's on his special).

A lot of the European music suffers from the lack of decent recording materials as well, but somehow, the music itself came alive, and to me, that is the most important factor of all.
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Originally posted by Philchem8 Philchem8 wrote:

This continues to be a quite a fascinating discussion and has been very helpful for me to reflect on the question I posed at the start, so thanks very much to all who have contributed. The thoughts expressed on various music critics and publications are certainly interesting (and educative for me), and I also appreciate the differing views of Genesis’ music. Without getting into a debate on the quality of the music itself, it is evident from the premise of my question that I think highly of early Genesis prog albums, and I believe my taste is supported by the enduring influence of this music (as an inspiration to other bands and countless Genesis tribute bands), the fact that most of these albums (including NS) continue to be on average highly rated by prog fans themselves (on this site and others), and the general recognition these albums receive in rock-related references (for instance, as recommended prog-rock recordings in the All Music Guide, among others). Of course, I may still be wrong in my esteem of early Genesis music, but ignoring that possibility for the moment, the question of why their albums received, relatively-speaking, less than an enthusiastic reception by much of the critical establishment at the time (apparently more so in the US than in the UK) is worth asking, though I do recognize, as others have pointed out, that Genesis did also receive positive reviews in its early days (just not on the level of Yes, ELP, Crimson and Tull among others). On this question, I noted that the key reasons given so far, in no particular order, are:

1. Early Genesis was “too English” (particularly for Americans, though it seems Belgians and Italians did not seem to care).

2. Genesis was too theatrical for some tastes (I think that’s valid for their live shows and is also inherent to some extent in the music itself)

3. Many critics are too stupid (to put it more politely than some others have) J

4. Early albums were too poorly produced (I think this is particularly relevant for Trespass and Nursery Cryme, though it did not bother me that much)

I agree with all of these reasons, and would like to add another one, which is related to the first three, but takes a somewhat different bend. To put it simply, people who consider themselves to be at least moderately educated Rock music listeners (and I am vain enough to include myself in this lot), often have pre-conceived notions of what Rock should be about, and this prevents them from appreciating the value of music that does not fit into such pre-conceived notions. While it’s true that early Genesis may have been very English, theatrical, artsy, lyrically esoteric, and even quirky at times, these in themselves have nothing to do with the quality of the music itself. Yet, these characteristics do not correspond to what many conceive Rock music ought to be, even though it is always those artists who push music genres beyond their boundaries that make the music continue to evolve and be relevant. For instance, I’ve read many times that the only track on Trespass that is any good is The Knife. The only reason I see given is that The Knife “rocks hard”, while other tracks are imaginative but mostly idyllic, pastoral pieces. Now anybody who has actually carefully listened to Trespass knows this is not true, but the implication by some here is that, in Rock, loud and fast-paced electric guitar-led music is good, while music that incorporates gentle pastoral elements is bad – as if this was not simply a question of taste. All this to say that, to truly appreciate music, I think it is most important to put our pre-conceived notions aside and listen to it with an open mind, something which is not actually easy to do, but in the end much more rewarding. I realize I’m stating something that is rather obvious for many here, but think it is particularly relevant when considering the early reception of Genesis’ music and that of many other progressive bands.    

This is a great post! I totally agree with the last part too. Sure The Knife is the heaviest rocker and a heckuva closer on Trespass, but Visions Of Angels get stuck in my head all the time! Looking For Someone is basically the sound of Gabriel discovering just how resonant his voice can be. It's a great album all around, excellent reading music actually. Pastoral, sure, but what a pasture!
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Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:



That's a trustworthy reviewer right there! Thumbs Up
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Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

I'd be more interested to know what other music publications thought of early Genesis albums at their time of release. I don't really think the perspective of RS counts for much, then or now, in the world outside mainstream rock.

As for my own personal opinion; the early Genesis albums are imperfect. They were young, still finding their sound, developing as song writers and notoriously working with producers who either didn't have the means, skills or any idea what to do with the bands sound, until Hentschel came along. In any case I regard all the PG era albums as unique classics, including Trespass. As a band, I always felt they were leagues ahead of Yes and ELP as songwriters, but all of these bands had their own vision, and objectives, all equally valid. It just so happens the Genesis vision resonated with me more than the others.

I don't think RS's opinion counts much even IN the world of mainstream rock. They called Queen fascists and gave Led Zeppelin IV a single paragraph review, which was pretty middling. Those takes aged terribly, and the stink was pretty noticeable from the start.
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Early Genesis is generally overrated (I say this as someone who puts them in my top five bands). A comment by Silly Puppy above suggests they 'came of age' with SEBTP yet this is the album that contains Battle Of Epping Forest (too much larking about , if ELP did this they would have been panned beyond reason) , More Fool Me and I Know What I Like (yawn) . Fantastic other tracks admittedly but is it really enough? Possibly the only real masterpiece in the Gabriel era could have been Lamb if has been about 10 minutes shorter. They were the band of the 'filler' material but somehow they get away with a lot more than other bands (ie ELP) who had less filler and more technically innovative. It is correctly pointed out that the production of NC was Muddy . Yes it really was although it was fixed in 2007 thankfully.
For me their best albums are the four that followed Gabriel's departure.  The split did neither of them any harm in my book and both took progressive rock onwards in their own ways. Genesis streamlined it and became a bit commercial (a terrible sin) but they had developed as a much more powerful band especially holding their own live with the best around. That's just in my opinion of course!

Foxtrot though! Cry
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Originally posted by Cosmiclawnmower Cosmiclawnmower wrote:

... KE about Genesis ...

Hi,

So said the man that selected two Italian bands to inaugurate his label Manticore! How soon we forget how he appreciated a lot of music, that we don't!
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Originally posted by Philchem8 Philchem8 wrote:

...

1. Early Genesis was “too English” (particularly for Americans, though it seems Belgians and Italians did not seem to care).

2. Genesis was too theatrical for some tastes (I think that’s valid for their live shows and is also inherent to some extent in the music itself)

3. Many critics are too stupid (to put it more politely than some others have) J

...

1. Weird ... even here on PA folks say the same thing about just about all the other nationalities and their music! It gets old reading that Italian bands don't sound like English ones, and neither do French or German bands!

IT'S ABOUT THE MUSIC .... not the nationality! It has been so for a long time! Why do we not stop allowing folks to say silly things that it was "too english"? So what? So was theater, film, literature ... and no one complained. But rock folks complain about anything, right?

2. That's a bunch of bull, since at the time, not many bands were doing something that could be considered "theatrical" at all, although one can point to OSANNA, ANGE, and then (eventually) to PF who did this theatricality with sound effects going all around the arena/venue in their "quadraphonic" sound system!

A reminder that sound, voice, singing, music and everything else came from the same "source" many years ago, when in the days of the Greek Theater they were together, and not apart. So seeing some bands take it seriously and directly is fine with me, except that you are telling me that fans want more Chuck Berry than they want intelligent music and presentations?

3. Critics are not (usually) stupid. But some of them have a knack for saying things that are really nasty and out of touch. I have been accused of that, however, never on a review! AND, that is the main reason why I do not do Top 5/10 because of the sacred cow and bullpucky aspect of it that makes too many fans defensive! 

There have been times when something really bad was said ... like an idiot saying Tangerine Dream sounded like "washing machine music" ... but the worst part of it? No one EVER said anything to shut that idiot up and get rid of him and his attitude towards music. He obviously needed to go back to washing dishes at McD's to learn what music was all about! PA, at least, will hammer folks that DO SAY bad things and specially when they are out of line. But the problem is not the "critic" ... it's the "opinion" that everyone believes is supposed to be "subjective" and NEVER objective, specially when it comes to the arts! That's a fan for you!
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This continues to be a quite a fascinating discussion and has been very helpful for me to reflect on the question I posed at the start, so thanks very much to all who have contributed. The thoughts expressed on various music critics and publications are certainly interesting (and educative for me), and I also appreciate the differing views of Genesis’ music. Without getting into a debate on the quality of the music itself, it is evident from the premise of my question that I think highly of early Genesis prog albums, and I believe my taste is supported by the enduring influence of this music (as an inspiration to other bands and countless Genesis tribute bands), the fact that most of these albums (including NS) continue to be on average highly rated by prog fans themselves (on this site and others), and the general recognition these albums receive in rock-related references (for instance, as recommended prog-rock recordings in the All Music Guide, among others). Of course, I may still be wrong in my esteem of early Genesis music, but ignoring that possibility for the moment, the question of why their albums received, relatively-speaking, less than an enthusiastic reception by much of the critical establishment at the time (apparently more so in the US than in the UK) is worth asking, though I do recognize, as others have pointed out, that Genesis did also receive positive reviews in its early days (just not on the level of Yes, ELP, Crimson and Tull among others). On this question, I noted that the key reasons given so far, in no particular order, are:

1. Early Genesis was “too English” (particularly for Americans, though it seems Belgians and Italians did not seem to care).

2. Genesis was too theatrical for some tastes (I think that’s valid for their live shows and is also inherent to some extent in the music itself)

3. Many critics are too stupid (to put it more politely than some others have) J

4. Early albums were too poorly produced (I think this is particularly relevant for Trespass and Nursery Cryme, though it did not bother me that much)

I agree with all of these reasons, and would like to add another one, which is related to the first three, but takes a somewhat different bend. To put it simply, people who consider themselves to be at least moderately educated Rock music listeners (and I am vain enough to include myself in this lot), often have pre-conceived notions of what Rock should be about, and this prevents them from appreciating the value of music that does not fit into such pre-conceived notions. While it’s true that early Genesis may have been very English, theatrical, artsy, lyrically esoteric, and even quirky at times, these in themselves have nothing to do with the quality of the music itself. Yet, these characteristics do not correspond to what many conceive Rock music ought to be, even though it is always those artists who push music genres beyond their boundaries that make the music continue to evolve and be relevant. For instance, I’ve read many times that the only track on Trespass that is any good is The Knife. The only reason I see given is that The Knife “rocks hard”, while other tracks are imaginative but mostly idyllic, pastoral pieces. Now anybody who has actually carefully listened to Trespass knows this is not true, but the implication by some here is that, in Rock, loud and fast-paced electric guitar-led music is good, while music that incorporates gentle pastoral elements is bad – as if this was not simply a question of taste. All this to say that, to truly appreciate music, I think it is most important to put our pre-conceived notions aside and listen to it with an open mind, something which is not actually easy to do, but in the end much more rewarding. I realize I’m stating something that is rather obvious for many here, but think it is particularly relevant when considering the early reception of Genesis’ music and that of many other progressive bands.    
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PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic

Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 15347 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2021 at 10:04
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:


Ultimately neither band has filler. Just music that some of us like and some of us don’t.



Well that's what filler is! LOL

Really? In that case, I’ve completely misunderstood what people mean when they say filler. To me, the term implies unimportant and unnecessary material added to bulk up or flesh out an album - which is something very different from simply “music I don’t like”. 🤷🏻‍♂️



And all of that is of course subjective! So the music we don't like is filler! Sometimes we all agree though :)

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
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